linguistic aspect extracted of "First Celts"

[MOESAN]

I (Moesan) create this thread not to clutter the archeological/historical/genetical uqestion of the thread "Fist Celts"

Yetos said:
deed, but how a Greek would name a Gaul Celt? when he defines him shelf as Gaul or celt Wall+++
Sure not Γκαλατης but Γαλατης, not Γελτος but κελτος,
remember the name Keltos in Greek was given by Herodotus and Attic dialect,
but the name Γαλατης was given at Koine times, when for me the Makedonian input was done, as we see at Alexandrine writting B->V and Γ -> wh not G.
Makedonians write Βερονικη, Αttic Φερενικη and we know Veronica, so at koine after Makedonians B->V and Γ->wh as in why, not G

so the termination Gal-ates is like Computer and κομπιουτερ, copy of sound, it does not have to follow IE rules,
the one that has to follow ΙΕ evolution and aspiration rules is virb κελλω κελευω, so if that follows rules
considering that κελης κελητας κελευστης is the yell of the commander, and if the word Γλωσσα-Γλωττα comes also from the same root,
I think we have something obvious, compare yell, call and κελλω modern καλω,
Greek διγαμα w also gives B V compare gw,
only we need is to find if y of yell or c of call and w of Whallach Walloons are just sound adoptation, or evolution/aspirations, is it possible or according linguistic laws? or no?
and here is where I give up.

btw the Romans in Makedonia build a small town called Callicum, Greeks turn it to Γαλλικος, when some of them moved later to S Italy by press of Slavs, turn to Italian Galliciano, not Calliciano
this has nothing to do with IE laws, but with sounds much later,

 

[Taranis]

I'm quoting myself here, because this is relevant:

The word 'Celt' was the name of the Gauls for themselves (the Gauls of 'Celtic' Gaul, as opposed to Belgic Gaul). The word (as part of a name, such as "Celtillus" ('little Celt' - also the name of Vercingetorix' own father) also shows up in dozens of inscriptions from Gaul.

If the word 'Celt' (*Keltos) was the endonym of the Gauls for themselves, then it would be logical if that name was rendered as "Keltoi" (Κελτοι) into Greek. You can find the Latin analogue of "Keltoi" too, Celtae (for example found with Julius Caesar and Pomponius Mela). The word "Celt" has a cognate in the Germanic languages with the name element "Hild-" (see "Childeric", "Hilderic, "Brunnhilde", etc).

It then makes sense that the Latin word "Galli" is an exonym (which is precisely what Julius Caesar states). By that logic, the name 'Galatians', i.e. Greek "Galatai" (Γαλαται) is the Greek adaptation of the name "Gauls". You could further invoke, with some reservations, that this was influenced by the Greek word for 'milk', "gala" (γαλα), so that you could translate it as something like "milky(-skinned) ones".

As for why the word was adapted as Γαλαται (Galatai) into Greek and not Γκαλαται (Gkalatai), this is because the plain Gamma was still pronounced as /g/ at that point, while the digraph 'gk' was pronounced as /ŋk/ (which I already mentioned in the other thread).

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I'm quoting myself here, because this is relevant:



If the word 'Celt' (*Keltos) was the endonym of the Gauls for themselves, then it would be logical if that name was rendered as "Keltoi" (Κελτοι) into Greek. You can find the Latin analogue of "Keltoi" too, Celtae (for example found with Julius Caesar and Pomponius Mela). The word "Celt" has a cognate in the Germanic languages with the name element "Hild-" (see "Childeric", "Hilderic, "Brunnhilde", etc).

It then makes sense that the Latin word "Galli" is an exonym (which is precisely what Julius Caesar states). By that logic, the name 'Galatians', i.e. Greek "Galatoi" (Γαλατοι) is the Greek adaptation of the name "Gauls". You could further invoke, with some reservations, that this was influenced by the Greek word for 'milk', "gala" (γαλα), so that you could translate it as something like "milky(-skinned) ones".

As for why the word was adapted as Γαλατοι (Galatoi)into Greek and not Γκαλατοι (Gkalatoi), this is because the plain Gamma was still pronounced as /g/ at that point, while the digraph 'gk' was pronounced as /ŋk/ (which I already mentioned in the other thread).

Is the bold part a joke?

Apart from that, why not Γάλλοι in Greek? Τhe adaptation of Galli would have been Galli, so Γαλάται isn't an adaptation from the Latin term.

It's Galatai, not Galatoi.

 

[Taranis]

Is the bold part a joke?

Apart from that, why not Γάλλοι in Greek? Τhe adaptation of Galli would have been Galli, so Γαλάται isn't an adaptation from the Latin term.

It's Galatai, not Galatoi.

My bad. :embarassed: I made a typo about the Galatai. And you're correct there, I'm fixing that in the original post. Beyond that, it isn't a joke: for the usage of "Galatai" as a synonym for "Galli", this is exactly how Greek language authors (Diodorus of Sicily, Pausanias, Strabo, etc.) use the word. You can also find a related term being used (for 'Celtic' Gaul, Keltogalatia - also used as a disambiguation from the Galatia in Anatolia).

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

If it was an adaptation from Latin 'Galli' it would have been 'Galloi', not 'Galatai', so it isn't.
The 'milky skinned ones' is a joke.

 

[Yetos]

I think the problem here is when ancient Greeks stop pronounce Γ as G and started pronoynced it as Γ

Well I said that many times W turns to Γ in Greek,
but the partnership of discusion said about the W that turns to Germanic sounds V,
now about Francais -r-, not it has not the same sound, although Greeks use the same letter Γ to express it,
same with germanic 'warum'
but -r- is a vowel,and if not belongs to Υγρα (liquid r = l) and can have aspirations, but not Γ which is laryngeal Κ Γ Χ, and the effort to express ΓΚ as nk which is parallel simmilar
BUT WHAT ABOUT ΓΓ in ΑΓΓΕΛΕΙΝ? which to fit W Europe become ng Angel
ΑΓΓΕΛΕΙΝ : send the words, the speach, the message, root is Κελλω Κελευω ΙΕ KEL


but seems it is excluded the case of w-> Γ το to Greek
although IE aiwa turns to ΑΙΓΑ,

besides I ask again,
would termination Walles Wallons Wallachs Gallic Gaul CELT to come from the IE KEL-

 

[Taranis]

If it was an adaptation from Latin 'Galli' it would have been 'Galloi', not 'Galatai', so it isn't.

Don't argue with me, argue with Diodorus, Pausanias or Strabo. :redface:

The 'milky skinned ones' is a joke.

Its not a joke but a folk etymology. While he doesn't use the expression 'milky', here's what Diodorus of Sicily writes (book 5, chapter 28):
"Οἱ δὲ Γαλάται τοῖς μὲν σώμασίν εἰσιν εὐμήκεις, ταῖς δὲ σαρξὶ κάθυγροι καὶ λευκοί..."

Oh, and please note that he talks about the Gauls in this chapter.

I think the problem here is when ancient Greeks stop pronounce Γ as G and started pronoynced it as Γ

Well I said that many times W turns to Γ in Greek,
but the partnership of discusion said about the W that turns to Germanic sounds V,
now about Francais -r-, not it has not the same sound, although Greeks use the same letter Γ to express it,
same with germanic 'warum'

Yetos, I said it was sound similar to French 'r':

By the way, I think what Yetos tries to approximate with "wh" is actually voiced velar fricative /ɣ/, a sound which is similar to French 'r' but pronounced slightly further in front of the mouth. This is the modern value of the letter "Gamma" (hence its IPA symbol was also taken off lower case Gamma).

Furthermore, in ancient Greek spelling conventions, Gamma (Γγ) before another velar consonant (γ, κ, χ) represented the velar nasal /ŋ/. Therefore, 'γγ' represents /ŋg/, as in English 'jingle'.

besides I ask again,
would termination Walles Wallons Wallachs Gallic Gaul CELT to come from the IE KEL-

The word "Wallach", "Walloon", and "Wales" come from Germanic *walhaz ('Celt', and later 'Roman'), and is thought to be derived from the Gaulish ethnonym "Volcae" (Ουολκαι), but subject to the Proto-Germanic sound shifts (*o > *a, *k > *h).

 

[MOESAN]

Here under a late answer of mine to Yetos , before I red your latest observations. I see Yetos is going on with this question, what is good, because I respect him.
I answer some of his questions with my present "knowledge", not all of them maybe.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Yetoswrote : Moesan answers[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif](in italics)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]D[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]eed,but how a Greek would name a Gaul Celt? when he defines him shelf asGaul or celt Wall+++ Sure not Γκαλατης but Γαλατης,not Γελτος but κελτος,[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I'mnot aware Celts never named themselves 'Wall-' ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]itappeared later in History and among germanic speaking people, I doubtit was employed at [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]early[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Galates times, even if I'm not sure ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]if [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thename [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Volques(Wolk-) [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]reachedGreeks ears at these times – [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]andI suppose it was not by Celts tongues[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif],[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Ithink the /w/ sound would be lost ; it was unkown in the greekof the concerned time ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]or[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]the other [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]alternative[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ofthis time to render a newcoming /w/ sound would have been 'ou-' [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]short[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]u/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]or'B' already pronounced /v/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Germanicslater turned /w/ into /v/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]apartsomeones[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]and moden Greek show the /-u//-w/ diphtongs are turned /v/ or /f/according to subsequent sounds in word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif];- [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]butwhy the final '-k...' would have been lost in the case of Volques ?All the way, NO 'g' /[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]/in the case of /w/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]or/v/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] ;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]rememberthe name Keltos in Greek was given by Herodotus and Atticdialect,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]butthe name Γαλατης was given at Koine times, when for me theMakedonian input was done, as we see at Alexandrine writting B->Vand Γ -> wh not G.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Makedonianswrite Βερονικη, Αttic Φερενικη and we know Veronica,so at koine after Makedonians B->V and Γ->wh as in why, not G[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Youopen a door when you speak of Attic dialects (I'm not a specialist ofgreek dialects) : seemingly this dialect would have unvoiced(hardened) the initial stops ? So /g-/ >> /k-/ ?(unvoicing apparently confirmed by Veronica where /v/ became /f/ inattic according to you ; but names in K- (Celtillius, Celticigenuine celtic names existed before Greek mentions) - I had thoughtin this possibility but on the opposite direction : a K to Gmutation (Celts make a lot of diverse consonantic mutations as youknow) and I have observed that a lot of latin cognates in C- wereturned into /g-/ in romance languages (for the most in West) :'gatto/gato/gat' << cattu- : « cat » ;'golpe' (span.) << 'colp-' : « stroke » … Idon't know the possible substratic origin of this phenomenon, buthere it concerns romance languages and maybe we could reverse theprocess : a first celtic 'Kelt-' would have given a 'Gal-'derived name in some italic dialect? So 'Gal-at-' forGreeks whatever the subsequent pronunciation? Not impossible butvery unsure, and the Greek GalaT- is closer to the CelT form and doesnot seem implying a Latin intermediary : hypothesis is only(needed) hypothesis, and in linguistics a lot of words are randomlyclose enough phonetically without any common root so we need moreproofs I think : here I would say concerning Celt- and Galat- :not proved, not disproved...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]sothe termination Gal-ates is like Computer and κομπιουτερ,copy of sound, it does not have to follow IE rules,[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]theone that has to follow ΙΕ evolution and aspiration rules is virbκελλω κελευω, so if that follows rules[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]consideringthat κελης κελητας κελευστης is the yell of thecommander, and if the word Γλωσσα-Γλωττα comes also fromthe same root,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Ithink we have something obvious, compare yell, call and κελλωmodern καλω, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]obvious'is not [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]sameas[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'proved' : I showed already [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]that[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]evidencein linguistic can be mistaking more than a time ! [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Youare aware as me of some bridges between consonnants pronounciationsaccording to place and time, but you seem not int[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]e[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]rerestedin the rules of evolutions limited to every language family ; Iagree later loanwords can escape the former chains of phoneticevolution proper to every family since PIE, but when we make theorieswe have then to date the apparition of the words in every languagebefore making safe conclusions. Sure tribes or ethnies names are moreoften loans ; So if your Keles/Keletas have the same roots asGlossa/Glotta based upon ancient basic meaning, you are obliged toimagine one of the 2 groups is not original Greek but borrowing [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]afterPIE dispersion[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Greekδιγαμα w also gives B V compare gw, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]onlywe need is to find if y of yell or c of call and w of WhallachWalloons are just sound adoptation, or evolution/aspirations, is itpossible or according linguistic laws? or no?[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]call'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]as[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]g[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ermanicwould suppose a I-E root in G- so doesn't discard a link with*Gall- ; but 'yell' (Dutch 'gillen'), from 'gell', supposes anI-E root in *gh- « to shout » having given Greek'khelidôn' - there is NO w[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]H[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]allachonly 'wallach', 'walloon', 'welsh' ; from Germanic ;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Germanic(Eng[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]l[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ish)W- is distinct from WH- ; see Volques.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]andhere is where I give up.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]regreatit[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif] ...[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]btwthe Romans in Makedonia build a small town called Callicum, Greeksturn it to Γαλλικος, when some of them moved later to S Italyby press of Slavs, turn to Italian Galliciano, not Calliciano.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Idon't understand why Greeks would turn Callicum into Gallikos whenthey had a /k/ sound and already pronounced G like [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/[/FONT]G[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/-it would rather signify popular latin of some provinces pronounced/g/ in place of /k/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thesewords and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]educated[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Greekswere at these times aware of the correspondance between latin /g/ andtheir ancient [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'G'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]even when they already pronounced it /[/FONT]G[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thesame occurred on the other direction ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]officialnames are not common nouns ; [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thishas nothing to do with IE laws, but with sounds much later ;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]-Nobody speaks of I-E laws, only of phonetical laws in the evolutionof later derived I-E families [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]forcognate PIE words[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif].[/FONT]
& : Yetos, whereand when some Greek speakers/writers rendered an ancient G- by WH- :what kind of police caracters were used if you!can transmit themcorrectly here??? It astonishedb me.​

addenda: Yetos, I spoke of the MODERN 'R' of french (almost the same as the modern litterary German 'R') only for its pronounciation, not mixing this with the etymology; sure French 'r' as nothing to do with 'g' or 'k' or 'w' question concerning origin; it was a kind of proxi, you can forget it.

 

[MOESAN]

I avow I'm was sure at all concerning possible link between Galli and Galatai; it"s why I ask for prudence; not to discard but to keep on the "reserve" when speaking of eymologies.

 

[MOESAN]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Yetoswrote : Moesan answers[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif](in italics)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]D[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]eed,but how a Greek would name a Gaul Celt? when he defines him shelf asGaul or celt Wall+++ Sure not Γκαλατης but Γαλατης,not Γελτος but κελτος,[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I'mnot aware Celts never named themselves 'Wall-' ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]itappeared later in History and among germanic speaking people, I doubtit was employed at [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]early[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Galates times, even if I'm not sure ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]if [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thename [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Volques(Wolk-) [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]reachedGreeks ears at these times – [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]andI suppose it was not by Celts tongues[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif],[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Ithink the /w/ sound would be lost ; it was unkown in the greekof the concerned time ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]or[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]the other [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]alternative[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ofthis time to render a newcoming /w/ sound would have been 'ou-' [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]short[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]u/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]or'B' already pronounced /v/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Germanicslater turned /w/ into /v/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]apartsomeones[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]and moden Greek show the /-u//-w/ diphtongs are turned /v/ or /f/according to subsequent sounds in word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif];- [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]butwhy the final '-k...' would have been lost in the case of Volques ?All the way, NO 'g' /[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]/in the case of /w/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]or/v/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] ;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]rememberthe name Keltos in Greek was given by Herodotus and Atticdialect,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]butthe name Γαλατης was given at Koine times, when for me theMakedonian input was done, as we see at Alexandrine writting B->Vand Γ -> wh not G.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Makedonianswrite Βερονικη, Αttic Φερενικη and we know Veronica,so at koine after Makedonians B->V and Γ->wh as in why, not G[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Youopen a door when you speak of Attic dialects (I'm not a specialist ofgreek dialects) : seemingly this dialect would have unvoiced(hardened) the initial stops ? So /g-/ >> /k-/ ?(unvoicing apparently confirmed by Veronica where /v/ became /f/ inattic according to you ; but names in K- (Celtillius, Celticigenuine celtic names existed before Greek mentions) - I had thoughtin this possibility but on the opposite direction : a K to Gmutation (Celts make a lot of diverse consonantic mutations as youknow) and I have observed that a lot of latin cognates in C- wereturned into /g-/ in romance languages (for the most in West) :'gatto/gato/gat' << cattu- : « cat » ;'golpe' (span.) << 'colp-' : « stroke » … Idon't know the possible substratic origin of this phenomenon, buthere it concerns romance languages and maybe we could reverse theprocess : a first celtic 'Kelt-' would have given a 'Gal-'derived name in some italic dialect? So 'Gal-at-' forGreeks whatever the subsequent pronunciation? Not impossible butvery unsure, and the Greek GalaT- is closer to the CelT form and doesnot seem implying a Latin intermediary : hypothesis is only(needed) hypothesis, and in linguistics a lot of words are randomlyclose enough phonetically without any common root so we need moreproofs I think : here I would say concerning Celt- and Galat- :not proved, not disproved...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]sothe termination Gal-ates is like Computer and κομπιουτερ,copy of sound, it does not have to follow IE rules,[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]theone that has to follow ΙΕ evolution and aspiration rules is virbκελλω κελευω, so if that follows rules[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]consideringthat κελης κελητας κελευστης is the yell of thecommander, and if the word Γλωσσα-Γλωττα comes also fromthe same root,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Ithink we have something obvious, compare yell, call and κελλωmodern καλω, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]obvious'is not [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]sameas[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'proved' : I showed already [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]that[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]evidencein linguistic can be mistaking more than a time ! [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Youare aware as me of some bridges between consonnants pronounciationsaccording to place and time, but you seem not int[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]e[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]rerestedin the rules of evolutions limited to every language family ; Iagree later loanwords can escape the former chains of phoneticevolution proper to every family since PIE, but when we make theorieswe have then to date the apparition of the words in every languagebefore making safe conclusions. Sure tribes or ethnies names are moreoften loans ; So if your Keles/Keletas have the same roots asGlossa/Glotta based upon ancient basic meaning, you are obliged toimagine one of the 2 groups is not original Greek but borrowing [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]afterPIE dispersion[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Greekδιγαμα w also gives B V compare gw, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]onlywe need is to find if y of yell or c of call and w of WhallachWalloons are just sound adoptation, or evolution/aspirations, is itpossible or according linguistic laws? or no?[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]call'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]as[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]g[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ermanicwould suppose a I-E root in G- so doesn't discard a link with*Gall- ; but 'yell' (Dutch 'gillen'), from 'gell', supposes anI-E root in *gh- « to shout » having given Greek'khelidôn' - there is NO w[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]H[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]allachonly 'wallach', 'walloon', 'welsh' ; from Germanic ;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Germanic(Eng[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]l[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ish)W- is distinct from WH- ; see Volques.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]andhere is where I give up.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]regreatit[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif] ...[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]btwthe Romans in Makedonia build a small town called Callicum, Greeksturn it to Γαλλικος, when some of them moved later to S Italyby press of Slavs, turn to Italian Galliciano, not Calliciano.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Idon't understand why Greeks would turn Callicum into Gallikos whenthey had a /k/ sound and already pronounced G like [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/[/FONT]G[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/-it would rather signify popular latin of some provinces pronounced/g/ in place of /k/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thesewords and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]educated[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Greekswere at these times aware of the correspondance between latin /g/ andtheir ancient [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'G'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]even when they already pronounced it /[/FONT]G[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thesame occurred on the other direction ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]officialnames are not common nouns ; [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thishas nothing to do with IE laws, but with sounds much later ;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]-Nobody speaks of I-E laws, only of phonetical laws in the evolutionof later derived I-E families [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]forcognate PIE words[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif].[/FONT]
& : Yetos, whereand when some Greek speakers/writers rendered an ancient G- by WH- :what kind of police caracters were used if you!can transmit themcorrectly here??? It astonishedb me.​

 

[MOESAN]

Sorry, two times my precise answers to Yetos have been erased: a pity... I don't understand why.

 

[MOESAN]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Yetoswrote : Moesan answers[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif](in italics)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]D[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]eed,but how a Greek would name a Gaul Celt? when he defines him shelf asGaul or celt Wall+++ Sure not Γκαλατης but Γαλατης,not Γελτος but κελτος,[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I'mnot aware Celts never named themselves 'Wall-' ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]itappeared later in History and among germanic speaking people, I doubtit was employed at [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]early[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Galates times, even if I'm not sure ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]if [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thename [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Volques(Wolk-) [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]reachedGreeks ears at these times – [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]andI suppose it was not by Celts tongues[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif],[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Ithink the /w/ sound would be lost ; it was unkown in the greekof the concerned time ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]or[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]the other [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]alternative[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ofthis time to render a newcoming /w/ sound would have been 'ou-' [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]short[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]u/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]or'B' already pronounced /v/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Germanicslater turned /w/ into /v/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]apartsomeones[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]and moden Greek show the /-u//-w/ diphtongs are turned /v/ or /f/according to subsequent sounds in word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif];- [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]butwhy the final '-k...' would have been lost in the case of Volques ?All the way, NO 'g' /[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]/in the case of /w/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]or/v/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] ;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]rememberthe name Keltos in Greek was given by Herodotus and Atticdialect,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]butthe name Γαλατης was given at Koine times, when for me theMakedonian input was done, as we see at Alexandrine writting B->Vand Γ -> wh not G.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Makedonianswrite Βερονικη, Αttic Φερενικη and we know Veronica,so at koine after Makedonians B->V and Γ->wh as in why, not G[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Youopen a door when you speak of Attic dialects (I'm not a specialist ofgreek dialects) : seemingly this dialect would have unvoiced(hardened) the initial stops ? So /g-/ >> /k-/ ?(unvoicing apparently confirmed by Veronica where /v/ became /f/ inattic according to you ; but names in K- (Celtillius, Celticigenuine celtic names existed before Greek mentions) - I had thoughtin this possibility but on the opposite direction : a K to Gmutation (Celts make a lot of diverse consonantic mutations as youknow) and I have observed that a lot of latin cognates in C- wereturned into /g-/ in romance languages (for the most in West) :'gatto/gato/gat' << cattu- : « cat » ;'golpe' (span.) << 'colp-' : « stroke » … Idon't know the possible substratic origin of this phenomenon, buthere it concerns romance languages and maybe we could reverse theprocess : a first celtic 'Kelt-' would have given a 'Gal-'derived name in some italic dialect? So 'Gal-at-' forGreeks whatever the subsequent pronunciation? Not impossible butvery unsure, and the Greek GalaT- is closer to the CelT form and doesnot seem implying a Latin intermediary : hypothesis is only(needed) hypothesis, and in linguistics a lot of words are randomlyclose enough phonetically without any common root so we need moreproofs I think : here I would say concerning Celt- and Galat- :not proved, not disproved...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]sothe termination Gal-ates is like Computer and κομπιουτερ,copy of sound, it does not have to follow IE rules,[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]theone that has to follow ΙΕ evolution and aspiration rules is virbκελλω κελευω, so if that follows rules[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]consideringthat κελης κελητας κελευστης is the yell of thecommander, and if the word Γλωσσα-Γλωττα comes also fromthe same root,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Ithink we have something obvious, compare yell, call and κελλωmodern καλω, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]obvious'is not [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]sameas[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'proved' : I showed already [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]that[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]evidencein linguistic can be mistaking more than a time ! [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Youare aware as me of some bridges between consonnants pronounciationsaccording to place and time, but you seem not int[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]e[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]rerestedin the rules of evolutions limited to every language family ; Iagree later loanwords can escape the former chains of phoneticevolution proper to every family since PIE, but when we make theorieswe have then to date the apparition of the words in every languagebefore making safe conclusions. Sure tribes or ethnies names are moreoften loans ; So if your Keles/Keletas have the same roots asGlossa/Glotta based upon ancient basic meaning, you are obliged toimagine one of the 2 groups is not original Greek but borrowing [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]afterPIE dispersion[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Greekδιγαμα w also gives B V compare gw, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]onlywe need is to find if y of yell or c of call and w of WhallachWalloons are just sound adoptation, or evolution/aspirations, is itpossible or according linguistic laws? or no?[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]call'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]as[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]g[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ermanicwould suppose a I-E root in G- so doesn't discard a link with*Gall- ; but 'yell' (Dutch 'gillen'), from 'gell', supposes anI-E root in *gh- « to shout » having given Greek'khelidôn' - there is NO w[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]H[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]allachonly 'wallach', 'walloon', 'welsh' ; from Germanic ;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Germanic(Eng[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]l[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ish)W- is distinct from WH- ; see Volques.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]andhere is where I give up.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]regreatit[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif] ...[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]btwthe Romans in Makedonia build a small town called Callicum, Greeksturn it to Γαλλικος, when some of them moved later to S Italyby press of Slavs, turn to Italian Galliciano, not Calliciano.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Idon't understand why Greeks would turn Callicum into Gallikos whenthey had a /k/ sound and already pronounced G like [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/[/FONT]G[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/-it would rather signify popular latin of some provinces pronounced/g/ in place of /k/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thesewords and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]educated[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Greekswere at these times aware of the correspondance between latin /g/ andtheir ancient [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'G'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]even when they already pronounced it /[/FONT]G[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thesame occurred on the other direction ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]officialnames are not common nouns ; [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thishas nothing to do with IE laws, but with sounds much later ;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Nobodyspeaks of I-E laws, only of phonetical laws in the evolution of laterderived I-E families [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]forcognate PIE words[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif].[/FONT]
Yetos, where and when someGreek speakers/writers rendered an ancient G- by WH- : what kindof police caracters were used if you!can transmit them correctlyhere??? It astonishedb me.​

 

[MOESAN]

last try:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I'mnot aware Celts never named themselves 'Wall-' ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]itappeared later in History and among germanic speaking people, I doubtit was employed at [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]early[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Galates times, even if I'm not sure ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]if [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thename [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Volques(Wolk-) [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]reachedGreeks ears at these times – [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]andI suppose it was not by Celts tongues[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif],[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Ithink the /w/ sound would be lost ; it was unkown in the greekof the concerned time ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]or[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]the other [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]alternative[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ofthis time to render a newcoming /w/ sound would have been 'ou-' [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]short[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]u/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]or'B' already pronounced /v/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Germanicslater turned /w/ into /v/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]apartsomeones[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]and moden Greek show the /-u//-w/ diphtongs are turned /v/ or /f/according to subsequent sounds in word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif];- [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]butwhy the final '-k...' would have been lost in the case of Volques ?All the way, NO 'g' /[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]/in the case of /w/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]or/v/[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] ;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Youopen a door when you speak of Attic dialects (I'm not a specialist ofgreek dialects) : seemingly this dialect would have unvoiced(hardened) the initial stops ? So /g-/ >> /k-/ ?[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif](unvoicing apparentlyconfirmed by Veronica where /v/ became /f/ in attic according toyou ; but names in K- (Celtillius, Celtici genuine celtic namesexisted before Greek mentions) [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]-I had thought in this possibility but on the opposite direction :a K to G mutation (Celts make a lot of diverse consonantic mutationsas you know) and I have observed that a lot of latin cognates in C-were turned into /g-/ in romance languages (for the most in West) :[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]gatto/gato/gat[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]<<cattu- [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: « cat » ;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]'golpe' (span.) <<'colp-' : « stroke » … [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Idon't know the possible sub[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]s[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]traticorigin of this phenomenon, but here it concerns romance languages andmaybe we could reverse the process : a first celtic 'Kelt-'would have given a 'Gal-' derived name [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]insome italic dialect[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]?[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So 'Gal-at-' forGreeks whatever the subsequent pronunciation? Not impossible butvery unsure, and the Greek GalaT- is closer to the CelT form and doesnot seem implying a Latin intermediary : hypothesis is only(needed) hypothesis, and in linguistics a lot of words are randomlyclose enough phonetically without any common root so we need moreproofs I think : here I would say concerning Celt- and Galat- :not proved, not disproved...[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]obvious'is not [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]sameas[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'proved' : I showed already [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]that[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]evidencein linguistic can be mistaking more than a time ! [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Youare aware as me of some bridges between consonnants pronounciationsaccording to place and time, but you seem not int[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]e[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]rerestedin the rules of evolutions limited to every language family ; Iagree later loanwords can escape the former chains of phoneticevolution proper to every family since PIE, but when we make theorieswe have then to date the apparition of the words in every languagebefore making safe conclusions. Sure tribes or ethnies names are moreoften loans ; So if your Keles/Keletas have the same roots asGlossa/Glotta based upon ancient basic meaning, you are obliged toimagine one of the 2 groups is not original Greek but borrowing [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]afterPIE dispersion[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]call'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]as[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]g[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ermanicwould suppose a I-E root in G- so doesn't discard a link with*Gall- ; but 'yell' (Dutch 'gillen'), from 'gell', supposes anI-E root in *gh- « to shout » having given Greek'khelidôn' - there is NO w[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]H[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]allachonly 'wallach', 'walloon', 'welsh' ; from Germanic ;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Germanic(Eng[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]l[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ish)W- is distinct from WH- ; see Volques.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Idon't understand why Greeks would turn Callicum into Gallikos whenthey had a /k/ sound and already pronounced G like [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/[/FONT]G[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/-it would rather signify popular latin of some provinces pronounced/g/ in place of /k/ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thesewords and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]educated[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Greekswere at these times aware of the correspondance between latin /g/ andtheir ancient [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]'G'[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]even when they already pronounced it /[/FONT]G[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]/;[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]thesame occurred on the other direction ; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]officialnames are not common nouns ; [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Nobodyspeaks of I-E laws, only of phonetical laws in the evolution of laterderived I-E families [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]forcognate PIE words[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif].[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Yetos,where and when some Greek speakers/writers rendered an ancient G- byWH- : what kind of police caracters were used [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ifyou!can transmit them correctly here[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]???It astonished me.[/FONT]​

 

[MOESAN]

Copy and paste don't work!!!
But Taranis made some good answers, I think. Sorry.

 

[MOESAN]

indeed, but how a Greek would name a Gaul Celt? when he defines him shelf as Gaul or celt Wall+++
Sure not Γκαλατης but Γαλατης, not Γελτος but κελτος,
remember the name Keltos in Greek was given by Herodotus and Attic dialect,
but the name Γαλατης was given at Koine times, when for me the Makedonian input was done, as we see at Alexandrine writting B->V and Γ -> wh not G.
Makedonians write Βερονικη, Αttic Φερενικη and we know Veronica, so at koine after Makedonians B->V and Γ->wh as in why, not G

so the termination Gal-ates is like Computer and κομπιουτερ, copy of sound, it does not have to follow IE rules,
the one that has to follow ΙΕ evolution and aspiration rules is virb κελλω κελευω, so if that follows rules
considering that κελης κελητας κελευστης is the yell of the commander, and if the word Γλωσσα-Γλωττα comes also from the same root,
I think we have something obvious, compare yell, call and κελλω modern καλω,
Greek διγαμα w also gives B V compare gw,
only we need is to find if y of yell or c of call and w of Whallach Walloons are just sound adoptation, or evolution/aspirations, is it possible or according linguistic laws? or no?
and here is where I give up.

btw the Romans in Makedonia build a small town called Callicum, Greeks turn it to Γαλλικος, when some of them moved later to S Italy by press of Slavs, turn to Italian Galliciano, not Calliciano
this has nothing to do with IE laws, but with sounds much later,


some bits of answer not in taranis

'kelïs/kelïtas' and 'glotta/glossa' - based upon a common basic ancient meaning - cannot be both groups
greek cognates upon PIE: it suppose one of the two group of words is a borrowing, OR they are two different roots with a close basic meaning by hazard;
'call' is geramnic and suppose and ancient *g(a)ll- IE form - 'yell' << 'gell' (NL 'gillen') is from a I-E *ghel- ("to shout") cf greek 'khelidôn' "swallow" (?) - no G-, no Y- , no K- here -
'callacum' >< 'gallikos': some romance regions tend to make /g-/ from /k-/ (debate about substratum: other question) and even if greek 'g' had already turned into velar spirant (modern greek) the educated people were surely aware of the original /g/ sound rendered by 'g'; by the way if latin speakers had pronounced /k/ greek had /k/ too written 'k' to render it; here we merge with the difficulty of oral/written offical names (not common nouns). I avow this last case - town Galliciano and Callicum - is not so evident.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Don't argue with me, argue with Diodorus, Pausanias or Strabo. :redface:



Its not a joke but a folk etymology. While he doesn't use the expression 'milky', here's what Diodorus of Sicily writes (book 5, chapter 28):
"Οἱ δὲ Γαλάται τοῖς μὲν σώμασίν εἰσιν εὐμήκεις, ταῖς δὲ σαρξὶ κάθυγροι καὶ λευκοί..."

.

Where do they say that the term Galatai was an adaptation from Latin?

The 'milky ones' thing is a joke etymology.

 

[Yetos]

The word "Wallach", "Walloon", and "Wales" come from Germanic *walhaz ('Celt', and later 'Roman'), and is thought to be derived from the Gaulish ethnonym "Volcae" (Ουολκαι), but subject to the Proto-Germanic sound shifts (*o > *a, *k > *h).

so Wallach Wallon and wales is a kind of exonym, or the inner name, but under foreign sound influence?

 

[Yetos]

Sorry, two times my precise answers to Yetos have been erased: a pity... I don't understand why.

it happened to me many times. I know

 

[Yetos]

'kelïs/kelïtas' and 'glotta/glossa' - based upon a common basic ancient meaning - cannot be both groups
greek cognates upon PIE: it suppose one of the two group of words is a borrowing, OR they are two different roots with a close basic meaning by hazard;
'call' is geramnic and suppose and ancient *g(a)ll- IE form - 'yell' << 'gell' (NL 'gillen') is from a I-E *ghel- ("to shout") cf greek 'khelidôn' "swallow" (?) - no G-, no Y- , no K- here -
'callacum' >< 'gallikos': some romance regions tend to make /g-/ from /k-/ (debate about substratum: other question) and even if greek 'g' had already turned into velar spirant (modern greek) the educated people were surely aware of the original /g/ sound rendered by 'g'; by the way if latin speakers had pronounced /k/ greek had /k/ too written 'k' to render it; here we merge with the difficulty of oral/written offical names (not common nouns). I avow this last case - town Galliciano and Callicum - is not so evident.

that is my point,
that words Celt/Gaul Slav Selloi comes from as you wrote it *ghel, -Kel
and yes the bird is χελιδων khelidon, but birds from ancient times they ωδουν (sing) or κελαιδουν (speak-communicate) or κρωζουν (ungly sound like ravens)
and group gives Greek word Γλωσσα Γλωττα.
*ghel in Greek loses the vowel after K and becomes Γ to make Γλωσσα
or Γλωσσα gets a vowel among Γ and L and drops to K

when I said about Callicum and Galliciano
I must say this
Romans build Callicum
Greeks translated as Καλλικον (officially at Catholic church pappers) the city but spell it as Γαλλικο, the river, Gallikos,
and when moved to Italy named it Galliciano, Γαλλικιανον.
so the official at letter is Kallikon as should be,
but the living sound is Gallikos,

it is like playing with Galledonia or Kalledonia or Calledonia?

all I believe is that early form *ghel -kel
gave these words, kelis/kelitas, Glossa, yell, Γαλατσευω, call, Celt, Gaul, Slav, Selloi etc etc
Even the word Kallas Kallasha
and i think it is possible.
now you have Ocam's razor.

 

[MOESAN]

Ocam"s razor needs to be well used