Local migrations of Y haplotypes (subclades) in the Balkans

[hrvat22]

Considering that DNA projects for each country become secret it would be nice that we know typical Y haplotypes (subclades and branches) for each country. Then we could know from where someone is coming ie. local Balkan migration.

Most interested are E1b V13, R1b, I2a, R1a and J2 subclades, or from Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania, Romania, Greece, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

We have a Croatian DNA project but it is closed to the public, everyone can specify their haplotypes anonymously.

The only thing we can find out from Y haplotypes is migration of tribes, peoples etc.. and now because of data protection we do not know anything or very little.

We have public DNA databases but they have same data for years so there is little benefit from them. Thank you and please support my suggestion.

 

[hrvat22]

R-M12335

Subgroup: 6. ..>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2617>Y2609>Y2608>YP3929>M12335

Let the haplotypes be like this to know each one subclade, and how many people hase this subclade, from where etc..

This haplotype is from Croatia (Dalmata) this branch 2608 is typical in Croatia. And how really typical I do not have clue because I do not have more information.

Croatian R1a falls almost exclusively within CTS1211, but to another clade (Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2608 subclade, TMRCA 1950 years),

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

 

[Sile]

Let the haplotypes be like this to know each one subclade, and how many people hase this subclade, from where etc..

This haplotype is from Croatia (Dalmata) this branch 2608 is typical in Croatia. And how really typical I do not have clue because I do not have more information.



https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

Do you know if I2a2b is South-Croatian ( Dalmatia and islands )

 

[hrvat22]

Do you know if I2a2b is South-Croatian ( Dalmatia and islands )

I have only public databases and for the moment I only know about I2a1b branch in Croatia.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

We have one haplotype

I2a3a 'Western' (I-A10033) P37+ CTS595+ S21825+ L1286+ L1287+ L233+ Y4252+ A10033+

Do you know something about that migration. Where it is located in Europe and from where it could come to Croatia?

 

[hrvat22]

For now I see that branch

-M269

Subgroup: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611

is strong in the Albanians and the area where Albanians live, and it can be concluded that this branch originally comes with Vlachs to Croatia and Bosnia.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AlbanianBloodlines?iframe=ymap

23 person from Croatia (Croatian Serbs) has R1b, 7 people have this branch (BY611) ie. this probable proves migration from direction of Albania.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...7awj72nygKQvww5LWek5M-TMns/edit#gid=156096813


My conclusion is only on the basis of that branch.

Interestingly, many Bosniaks from southern Serbia have this branch especially in the Sandžak area. So that migration to Croatia is also possible from there.
We'll see in the future.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...M&ll=42.92979797538265,20.251729473828163&z=9

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandžak

 

[hrvat22]

J2b M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066,Y22079? Balkan cluster

This branch exist in Bulgaria, Romania, less in Albania and eastern Serbia.
In Croatia that branch exists in the area where Serbs live, but there are also in erea where Croats live but less.

47 person from Croatia (Croatian Serbs) has J2b, 36 person have this branch (Y22066).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...B7awj72nygKQvww5LWek5M-TMns/edit#gid=35192839

Based on public DNA database J2-M172 Project in the area of eastern Herzegovina and western Montenegro from where Serbs allegedly come to Croatia it does not exist or probably exists but in a smaller extent, so it can be assumed that these people with that branch J2b M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066, coming from direction of Bulgaria or Romania with Vlachs.
This is my opinion only on the basis of that branch, this is for now.

J2-M172 Project


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=ymap


Bulgarian DNA Project

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna?iframe=ymap

 

[eastara]

This branch exist in Bulgaria, Romania, less in Albania and eastern Serbia.
In Croatia that branch exists in the area where Serbs live, but there are also in erea where Croats live but less.

47 person from Croatia (Croatian Serbs) has J2b, 36 person have this branch (Y22066).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...B7awj72nygKQvww5LWek5M-TMns/edit#gid=35192839

Based on public DNA database J2-M172 Project in the area of eastern Herzegovina and western Serbia from where Serbs allegedly come to Croatia it does not exist or probably exists but in a smaller extent, so it can be assumed that these people with that branch J2b M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066, coming from direction of Bulgaria or Romania with Vlachs.
This is my opinion only on the basis of that branch, this is for now.

J2-M172 Project


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=ymap


Bulgarian DNA Project

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna?iframe=ymap

Regarding J2b1-M205 a lot was written on the Serbian forum Poreklo, as one of the Serbian project administrators hismself is with this haplogroup.
However this J2b branch has no affinity to the South Western Balkans like J2b2, even it was discovered in a single Albanian only recently. There are many Croats with it, but I can't argue if they have any connection to the Serbs. The current distribution is more Central to Northern on the Balkans and probably has neither Danube Vlach connection, as there are only single cases in Romania, nor Vlach Aromuns (as it is missing also among Greeks and Albanians).
Most Balkan cluster J2b1 are in the Balkan project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/balkangenetics?iframe=yresults

 

[hrvat22]

eastara

but I can't argue if they have any connection to the Serbs.

Probably they have nothing to do with Serbs but they have something with Vlachs.Part of Vlachs become Croats, this is confirmed in the historical sources.According to the public DNA database J2-M172 Project in eastern Herzegovina and western Montenegro branch Y2206 does not exist for now, and if it comes from there to Croatia it should be seen, probably there exist some M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y2206 but in the future we will see if they are ancestor mutations.

If you were thinking about concrete Croats with J2b M205 from DNA Balkan project, as far I can see, those Croat people have mostly Serbian names and surnames so I suppose that most of them are Serbians from Croatia.

The current distribution is more Central to Northern on the Balkans

Where specifically?

and probably has neither Danube Vlach connection

If in Croatian historical records are mentioned Vlachs then probably Vlachs are coming regardless of their originally origin or ancient tribe names.

Most Balkan cluster J2b1 are in the Balkan project:

I'm interested in people with subclade Y22066 and subclades behind it.For now on the public DNA database, subclade J2b..Y22066 has five persons from Bulgaria, three persons from north and south-eastern Serbia, two persons from Romania and eleven persons from Bosnia and Croatia.https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=ymapFor now these areas are connected and between them migration is possible.

 

[Dibran]

I hope some aDNA pre-great migration comes up for M458. It would be cool to see where it was pre-migration.

 

[eastara]

Probably they have nothing to do with Serbs but they have something with Vlachs.Part of Vlachs become Croats, this is confirmed in the historical sources.According to the public DNA database J2-M172 Project in eastern Herzegovina and western Montenegro branch Y2206 does not exist for now, and if it comes from there to Croatia it should be seen, probably there exist some M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y2206 but in the future we will see if they are ancestor mutations.

Well, all people on the Balkans were Vlachs (Latin speaking) before the big migrations in the Early Middle ages. In fact only Romania was NOT Latin speaking around 6-7 century. Most Vlach went there only when it was a part of the Bulgar empire. Until early Ottoman times the migration was predominantly from North Bulgaria/Eastern Serbia to Wallachia until Vlachs almost completely disappeared in what is now Bulgaria.
There is more recent migration in the opposite direction from 18 c. on. Vlach from North of the Danube settled in Ottoman and Austrian territories as they were offered better condition than the serfdom in there own country. Vlach Aromuns had a big revival from 17 century on, coming out of the mountains and becoming a main merchant and trades force on the Balkans. Some went even to Western Europe and Middle East, however preferring to identify as Greeks. The town of Moskopole once was the second biggest in the Ottoman Balkans after Istanbul before all this was destroyed during the lawlessness at the end of 18 c.

 

[Angela]

Well, all people on the Balkans were Vlachs (Latin speaking) before the big migrations in the Early Middle ages. In fact only Romania was NOT Latin speaking around 6-7 century. Most Vlach went there only when it was a part of the Bulgar empire. Until early Ottoman times the migration was predominantly from North Bulgaria/Eastern Serbia to Wallachia until Vlachs almost completely disappeared in what is now Bulgaria.
There is more recent migration in the opposite direction from 18 c. on. Vlach from North of the Danube settled in Ottoman and Austrian territories as they were offered better condition than the serfdom in there own country. Vlach Aromuns had a big revival from 17 century on, coming out of the mountains and becoming a main merchant and trades force on the Balkans. Some went even to Western Europe and Middle East, however preferring to identify as Greeks. The town of Moskopole once was the second biggest in the Ottoman Balkans after Istanbul before all this was destroyed during the lawlessness at the end of 18 c.

Excellent information. Thank you Eastara. I'm sorry I've run out of voting power for the day.

 

[Ownstyler]

Well, all people on the Balkans were Vlachs (Latin speaking) before the big migrations in the Early Middle ages. In fact only Romania was NOT Latin speaking around 6-7 century. Most Vlach went there only when it was a part of the Bulgar empire. Until early Ottoman times the migration was predominantly from North Bulgaria/Eastern Serbia to Wallachia until Vlachs almost completely disappeared in what is now Bulgaria.
There is more recent migration in the opposite direction from 18 c. on. Vlach from North of the Danube settled in Ottoman and Austrian territories as they were offered better condition than the serfdom in there own country. Vlach Aromuns had a big revival from 17 century on, coming out of the mountains and becoming a main merchant and trades force on the Balkans. Some went even to Western Europe and Middle East, however preferring to identify as Greeks. The town of Moskopole once was the second biggest in the Ottoman Balkans after Istanbul before all this was destroyed during the lawlessness at the end of 18 c.

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but Moskopole was never a big city, certainly not among the biggest in the Balkans.

We don't exactly know what languages survived in the Balkans in late Antiquity. The coastal areas and many in the cities probably spoke Latin, but there are plenty of signs that some pre-Roman languages were still being spoken, and Greeks and Albanians didn't reverse from Latin back to whatever they spoke before.

Even Latin had different branches in the Balkans, so I don't think Balkan Latin-speakers of early Middle Ages would be classified into one group, ethnically, linguistically, culturally or even genetically.

 

[eastara]

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but Moskopole was never a big city, certainly not among the biggest in the Balkans.

We don't exactly know what languages survived in the Balkans in late Antiquity. The coastal areas and many in the cities probably spoke Latin, but there are plenty of signs that some pre-Roman languages were still being spoken, and Greeks and Albanians didn't reverse from Latin back to whatever they spoke before.

Even Latin had different branches in the Balkans, so I don't think Balkan Latin-speakers of early Middle Ages would be classified into one group, ethnically, linguistically, culturally or even genetically.

Moskopole was once in 18th c. around 30000, while most other Balkan Ottoman cities were not more than 20000 around that time. Of course, not all Vlachs on the Balkans had the same origin, they were only Latinised local people and some pre Latin and Greek languages may have survived until late.
People also seem to forget the migrations from Anatolia and Middle East during Byzantine and Ottoman times. The Balkans were a long time a place for exile, for example the Paulicians during Byzantine times and different Turkic tribes during Ottoman.

 

[Johane Derite]

Well, all people on the Balkans were Vlachs (Latin speaking)

1. This is a outlandishly big claim which is not supported by anything.

2. Latin speaking does not suffice to make one a vlach.

Kosovo Albanians spoke Serbian in official Yugoslavian institutions 40 years ago, they were not serbs because of it.

 

[hrvat22]

eastara

Well, all people on the Balkans were Vlachs (Latin speaking) before the big migrations in the Early Middle ages.

The language has nothing to do with origin of people, tribes etc.

In fact only Romania was NOT Latin speaking around 6-7 century.

What it has to do with Y haplotype?

Most Vlach went there only when it was a part of the Bulgar empire. Until early Ottoman times the migration was predominantly from North Bulgaria/Eastern Serbia to Wallachia until Vlachs almost completely disappeared in what is now Bulgaria.

That's why Y haplotype exist to prove migration of peoples. Which subclades and branches prove this migration?

There is more recent migration in the opposite direction from 18 c. on. Vlach from North of the Danube settled in Ottoman and Austrian territories as they were offered better condition than the serfdom in there own country.

Which subclades and branches prove this migration?

Vlach Aromuns had a big revival from 17 century on, coming out of the mountains and becoming a main merchant and trades force on the Balkans. Some went even to Western Europe and Middle East, however preferring to identify as Greeks.

In Croatia according to historical data Vlachs are coming. In Bosnia are mentioned some Bulgarians as I remember and in Dalmatia some peoples with Greek faith but most of them are Vlachs in written sources, which language they spoke, which letter they wrote, which folk dances they are dancing has nothing to do with origin of that peoples.

 

[Guido Anselmi]

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but Moskopole was never a big city, certainly not among the biggest in the Balkans.

We don't exactly know what languages survived in the Balkans in late Antiquity. The coastal areas and many in the cities probably spoke Latin, but there are plenty of signs that some pre-Roman languages were still being spoken, and Greeks and Albanians didn't reverse from Latin back to whatever they spoke before.

Even Latin had different branches in the Balkans, so I don't think Balkan Latin-speakers of early Middle Ages would be classified into one group, ethnically, linguistically, culturally or even genetically.

No one claims that speakers of Vulgar Latin all spoke the same kind of Vulgar Latin in the Balkans. We have the excellent example of the Cici today in Croatia's Istra region. They migrated from Macedonia during the Medieval Era northwestwards and bypassed all the old Dalmatian/Vegliot speakers of Croatia's Dalmatian Coast and the Croatian coast north of Dalmatia. Linguistic studies show that the vocabulary used by the Cici reflects that of Vlachs from Macedonia rather than those of the islands of Krk and Rab, or of the "Dalmatski" that was spoken in the coastal towns of Zadar/Zara, Trogir, Split/Spalato, etc. which themselves were different from the Vegliot spoken on the islands of Krk and Rab.

Balkan Vlachs were never one ethnicity, were never speakers of the exact same type of Vulgar Latin. The differences grow even greater when viewed through other prisms and timeframes as to who and what was a Vlach.

Eastara is pretty much correct in her post.

 

[Guido Anselmi]

1. This is a outlandishly big claim which is not supported by anything.

2. Latin speaking does not suffice to make one a vlach.

Kosovo Albanians spoke Serbian in official Yugoslavian institutions 40 years ago, they were not serbs because of it.

One of the uses of the term Vlach is to denote speakers of Vulgar Latin/Latin on the Balkan peninsula after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. You are mixing modern concepts of ethnicity with a term used to encompass a very wide linguistic group that itself had differences within it.

 

[Leka]

No one claims that speakers of Vulgar Latin all spoke the same kind of Vulgar Latin in the Balkans. We have the excellent example of the Cici today in Croatia's Istra region. They migrated from Macedonia during the Medieval Era northwestwards and bypassed all the old Dalmatian/Vegliot speakers of Croatia's Dalmatian Coast and the Croatian coast north of Dalmatia. Linguistic studies show that the vocabulary used by the Cici reflects that of Vlachs from Macedonia rather than those of the islands of Krk and Rab, or of the "Dalmatski" that was spoken in the coastal towns of Zadar/Zara, Trogir, Split/Spalato, etc. which themselves were different from the Vegliot spoken on the islands of Krk and Rab.

Balkan Vlachs were never one ethnicity, were never speakers of the exact same type of Vulgar Latin. The differences grow even greater when viewed through other prisms and timeframes as to who and what was a Vlach.

Eastara is pretty much correct in her post.

She is not, good part of Greeks and Albanians were never Vlahs in the true sense of the word, they might have been bilingual during Roman Empire, but that’s beside the point. She is grossly exaggerating, unless of course she believes we parachuted down during Middle Ages (which is what she is hinting at).

 

[Ownstyler]

No one claims that speakers of Vulgar Latin all spoke the same kind of Vulgar Latin in the Balkans. We have the excellent example of the Cici today in Croatia's Istra region. They migrated from Macedonia during the Medieval Era northwestwards and bypassed all the old Dalmatian/Vegliot speakers of Croatia's Dalmatian Coast and the Croatian coast north of Dalmatia. Linguistic studies show that the vocabulary used by the Cici reflects that of Vlachs from Macedonia rather than those of the islands of Krk and Rab, or of the "Dalmatski" that was spoken in the coastal towns of Zadar/Zara, Trogir, Split/Spalato, etc. which themselves were different from the Vegliot spoken on the islands of Krk and Rab.

Balkan Vlachs were never one ethnicity, were never speakers of the exact same type of Vulgar Latin. The differences grow even greater when viewed through other prisms and timeframes as to who and what was a Vlach.

Eastara is pretty much correct in her post.

First of all, Moscopole being the second largest city in the Balkans, at best, is very disputable. This guy says it wasn't: https://www.amazon.com/Die-Druckerei-Moschopolis-1731-1769-Heiligenverehrung/dp/3205052935. Maybe he is wrong, but how can we know, anyway? Do you have a list of Ottoman Balkan cities and their populations in the mid-18th century? If not, then we don't know.

Second, how can you claim only Romania was not speaking Latin before the arrivals of the Slavs, when there are two more populations in the Balkans even today to disprove this? That's not even taking into account the theories that different Thracian groups were speaking their pre-Roman languages until the early Middle Ages.

Third, most importantly, he answered a question about genetic markers. However, if we all agree that the term Vlach refers to a mix of people, and even to a different mix at different periods, how can you claim to understand their migration through genetics? You can only understand migration through genetics if you have clearly recognizable groups, preferably relatively isolated as well, that you can follow in time. So, you have to determine precisely which Vlach group, at which point in time, you are speaking about. Otherwise the term Vlach means nothing in terms of population genetics.

 

[eastara]

Well, genetics clearly shows the so called Danube Vlachs, who used to live in former Wallachia are very close to Bulgarians and Serbians(from Eastern Serbia). Even the most patriotic Romanians admit they are heterogeneous genetically and Romanians in Bukovina and Moldova resemble more Ukrainians, while Transilvania and Banat - Hungarians. Of course, not ALL Danube Vlach transferred from South of the Danube, some were assimilated local people.
Vlach Aromuns are somewhat different, but there was some migration of those people to Wallahia and Transylvania in 18-19c.
I don't believe that all people on the Balkan spoke Latin, even before the big migrations the South went back to Greek. This was not so much because of the original Greeks, but the Eastern Roman Empire relied predominantly on their lands in Anatolia and the Middle East, which were Hellenised before becoming a part of the Roman Empire and largely never converted to Latin.