Main Y-haplogroups on the territory of Dacia 2000-3000 years ago.

[Aspurg]

I would also expect a considerable frequency of R-Z93 in Dacia. There were many tribes of Iranian origin there during late Antiquity (Iazyges, Roxolani, Tharco-Cimmerians etc.) Furthermore R-Z93 has been found to Bronze Age Bulgaria. It is possible that Proto-Thracians were R-Z93.

I know well Z93 clades and thus far among ethnic Romanians/Moldovans (on a sample of 700 where STR's are available from many sources) I only saw a one certain Z93 which is of likely Turkic origin. There is more of Z93 in Bulgarians and Hungarians.

I do not think it is possible for R-Z93 to have been originators of Thracian language if one goes by Baltic connection that was supported by various authors. There was one culture which likely had lots of Z93 that made influence on formation of Thracians, the Noua culture, but the fundamental base of Thracian culture with important elements such as funeral ritual had developed earlier, already in MBA and involved cremation something very foreign to all R-Z93 groups. I think some basal R-Z280 that I saw recently might have been the originators. Still Z93 might have added some extra influence. In Bulgaria there are two Z93 clades that actually look native.

 

[xri34]

I know well Z93 clades and thus far among ethnic Romanians/Moldovans (on a sample of 700 where STR's are available from many sources) I only saw a one certain Z93 which is of likely Turkic origin. There is more of Z93 in Bulgarians and Hungarians.

I do not think it is possible for R-Z93 to have been originators of Thracian language if one goes by Baltic connection that was supported by various authors. There was one culture which likely had lots of Z93 that made influence on formation of Thracians, the Noua culture, but the fundamental base of Thracian culture with important elements such as funeral ritual had developed earlier, already in MBA and involved cremation something very foreign to all R-Z93 groups. I think some basal R-Z280 that I saw recently might have been the originators. Still Z93 might have added some extra influence. In Bulgaria there are two Z93 clades that actually look native.

It is quite possible that Bronze Age Z93 was just a nomad and not a Proto-Thracian. We will know for sure in the future. I know that a Z93 clade has been found to a Pole of Wallachian ancestry. It makes sense to exist some lineages from the late Antiquity Sarmatian tribes who were living there.Which are the clades of Z93 you know have been found in Romania and Bulgaria?

 

[Aspurg]

Which are the clades of Z93 you know have been found in Romania and Bulgaria?

In Bulgaria Thracian candidates are R-YP5271 and R-Z2125>YP413>M12280, latter is strong in the Middle East but in Europe (Italy, Spain) is found a distant clade of R-M12280>FGC66097, Bulgarian is predicted as FGC66097 but I'm not sure he fits there he is very distant to these anyway.

Of others one confirmed R-S23592 is found and also I predict 2 certain more clades under R-S23592 to be found there from studies as well as one likely S23592. Of these R-S23592>S10438 is the only clade found in Romania (Moldavia), but these are newer arrivals, this clade seems of certain Bolgar/Avar origin as they have a match in Bashkirs who have such tribal designation, and generally no S23592 fits as any potential older Thracian hg as it was already found many times in Hunnic, Sarmatian, Skythian context.

These proportions seem close to the truth from what we can deduce from the archaeological finds, but it is possible that R1b was less.

Anyway, I think the proportion of E, J2 and even R1a voted until now in the poll is exaggerated.

His sample is suspect, he took sample "around Dacia" which is irrelevant. These I2a seem EBA ones found in Bulgaria, EBA is pretty irrelevant, few of these clades from that time are found. Also did he count all those Scythian "R1b's"? Because most weren't R1b to begin with.

You and him better go get tested as at FTDNA Romanian project has a minority of Romanians, majority are Jews, Szekely, German, I know of only about 120 Romanians/Moldovans tested there. So one has to look at low res scientific studies to get a better clue about Romanian makeup.

Interestingly Dakians and Getae were not quite the same people. Archaeologically proto-Getae are from Wallachia and Moldavia whereas proto-Dakians were from Transylvania. Getae had more influences from Greeks and in general, Dakians were isolated by the mountains and unlike Getae they had strong Keltic influence. Later they were politically unified, but it is not correct that "Getae and Dacian are just interchangeable terms", Dakians proper are Transylvanian in origin.

 

[xri34]

In Bulgaria Thracian candidates are R-YP5271 and R-Z2125>YP413>M12280, latter is strong in the Middle East but in Europe (Italy, Spain) is found a distant clade of R-M12280>FGC66097, Bulgarian is predicted as FGC66097 but I'm not sure he fits there he is very distant to these anyway.

Of others one confirmed R-S23592 is found and also I predict 2 certain more clades under R-S23592 to be found there from studies as well as one likely S23592. Of these R-S23592>S10438 is the only clade found in Romania (Moldavia), but these are newer arrivals, this clade seems of certain Bolgar/Avar origin as they have a match in Bashkirs who have such tribal designation, and generally no S23592 fits as any potential older Thracian hg as it was already found many times in Hunnic, Sarmatian, Skythian context.




His sample is suspect, he took sample "around Dacia" which is irrelevant. These I2a seem EBA ones found in Bulgaria, EBA is pretty irrelevant, few of these clades from that time are found. Also did he count all those Scythian "R1b's"? Because most weren't R1b to begin with.

You and him better go get tested as at FTDNA Romanian project has a minority of Romanians, majority are Jews, Szekely, German, I know of only about 120 Romanians/Moldovans tested there. So one has to look at low res scientific studies to get a better clue about Romanian makeup.

Interestingly Dakians and Getae were not quite the same people. Archaeologically proto-Getae are from Wallachia and Moldavia whereas proto-Dakians were from Transylvania. Getae had more influences from Greeks and in general, Dakians were isolated by the mountains and unlike Getae they had strong Keltic influence. Later they were politically unified, but it is not correct that "Getae and Dacian are just interchangeable terms", Dakians proper are Transylvanian in origin.

Do you have any information about R-Z2122 clade? In my opinion this is mostly Alan/Sarmatian clade. What do you think?

 

[Aspurg]

Do you have any information about R-Z2122 clade? In my opinion this is mostly Alan/Sarmatian clade. What do you think?

I read one Greek was R-F2935 at 23andme, are you this person? Some clades such as Y52 are god candidates for Sarmatian, not sure about "Alan". Alans came from Asia in a wave after Sarmatians. And Sarmatians had three phases of successive migrations. As did Scythians before.

Also there is a specific J-Z1842 hyplotype found in Croatia, Serbia, Hungary that is also found in UK and Iberia (where Sarmatians/Alans went) and this clade might be related to those J1 Sarmatian finds in Caucasus. I think it is likely Iazygian. So not only Z93's are Sarmatian in Antiquity.

There is one Greek at FTDNA from Symi who is Z93+ nothing below tested. He looks might even say likely F2935+, because of 389ii=18 + H4=12 which are important mutations for F2935. Maybe this clade has something to do with to Seima-Turbino which was connected by some to Myceneans..

 

[xri34]

I read one Greek was R-F2935 at 23andme, are you this person? Some clades such as Y52 are god candidates for Sarmatian, not sure about "Alan". Alans came from Asia in a wave after Sarmatians. And Sarmatians had three phases of successive migrations. As did Scythians before.

Also there is a specific J-Z1842 hyplotype found in Croatia, Serbia, Hungary that is also found in UK and Iberia (where Sarmatians/Alans went) and this clade might be related to those J1 Sarmatian finds in Caucasus. I think it is likely Iazygian. So not only Z93's are Sarmatian in Antiquity.

There is one Greek at FTDNA from Symi who is Z93+ nothing below tested. He looks might even say likely F2935+, because of 389ii=18 + H4=12 which are important mutations for F2935. Maybe this clade has something to do with to Seima-Turbino which was connected by some to Myceneans..

Yes I am the R-F2935 Greek. At my 23andme relatives I have found another R-F2935 Greek and a second R-F1345(upstream of R-F2935) with different surnames. This is the only clade under R-Z93 I have found among Greeks. I have read at a Russian forum that R-F2935 was found in Khazars kingdom but it was a multiethnic society with many different peoples.
As far as I know Y52 has been found in Sarmatian samples and it has a similar distribution (throughout Europe) with my haplogroup. Both haplogrous exist also in Spain and Uk where Iazyges and Alans went. In general I think R-Z2122 is mostly widespread in Europe and with low frequency in Asia. Of course they were formed thousands of years ago and they could exist to very different groups. If proto-Greeks had really some relationship with Seima-Turbino my haplogroup is a very good candidate for them. I am planning to take a Yseq test to test to check if I belong to any of known R-F2935 clades.

 

[Aspurg]

Yes I am the R-F2935 Greek. At my 23andme relatives I have found another R-F2935 Greek and a second R-F1345(upstream of R-F2935) with different surnames. This is the only clade under R-Z93 I have found among Greeks. I have read at a Russian forum that R-F2935 was found in Khazars kingdom but it was a multiethnic society with many different peoples.
As far as I know Y52 has been found in Sarmatian samples and it has a similar distribution (throughout Europe) with my haplogroup. Both haplogrous exist also in Spain and Uk where Iazyges and Alans went. In general I think R-Z2122 is mostly widespread in Europe and with low frequency in Asia. Of course they were formed thousands of years ago and they could exist to very different groups. If proto-Greeks had really some relationship with Seima-Turbino my haplogroup is a very good candidate for them. I am planning to take a Yseq test to test to check if I belong to any of known R-F2935 clades.

Indeed Y52 has been found in a Sarmatian burial from Rostov. And now that you mention Khazars, I remember seeing STR's of two of them and now I took a look at these and one seems Y52+ with likely being Y2631-, YP1269- and possibly FGC4582-. The other indeed is R-F2935!! He doesn't match well with YP4768's, neither the Turk who is R-F1019*, they seem the best match expectedly for a few Balkars at FTDNA who must be R-F2935>F1019>Y37903 although these at YFUll are from a study it seems not FTDNA.
This Greek at FTDNA who is Z93+ but might be a candidate for R-F2935 I did not mention lacks important mutation for F2935 which is also dys385b=15. If he is F2935 he must be very distant.

Definitely you should do deeper tests for YP4768 and F1019, as you lack STR's nothing further can be said for you. If you are YP4768 then Sarmatian/Alan option is most likely, if you are F1019 and especially Y37903 you might be of Khazars. If you are negative to both you might have something to do with this Seima-Turbino hypothesis. Chances are better I guess for the first 2 options. You might try contacting those tested and persuade them to test SNP's/STR's, and you might try contacting this Greek N4544 from FTDNA, if he happens to be F2935 it might be some very distant clade that arrived there long time ago. YSEQ also adds SNP's at request for just a dollar (unless they are in unreliable region).

Regarding F2935 and Dacian area. There is not a single Romanian/Moldovan sample out of about 700 that has necessary STR's to be called likely F2935. There is one Bulgarian from Montana in a study who looks like a F2935 candidate, and one Greek from Macedonia also looks like a candidate but they also both have some unusual STR's for F2935 so some other options are there too.

 

[xri34]

Indeed Y52 has been found in a Sarmatian burial from Rostov. And now that you mention Khazars, I remember seeing STR's of two of them and now I took a look at these and one seems Y52+ with likely being Y2631-, YP1269- and possibly FGC4582-. The other indeed is R-F2935!! He doesn't match well with YP4768's, neither the Turk who is R-F1019*, they seem the best match expectedly for a few Balkars at FTDNA who must be R-F2935>F1019>Y37903 although these at YFUll are from a study it seems not FTDNA.
This Greek at FTDNA who is Z93+ but might be a candidate for R-F2935 I did not mention lacks important mutation for F2935 which is also dys385b=15. If he is F2935 he must be very distant.

Definitely you should do deeper tests for YP4768 and F1019, as you lack STR's nothing further can be said for you. If you are YP4768 then Sarmatian/Alan option is most likely, if you are F1019 and especially Y37903 you might be of Khazars. If you are negative to both you might have something to do with this Seima-Turbino hypothesis. Chances are better I guess for the first 2 options. You might try contacting those tested and persuade them to test SNP's/STR's, and you might try contacting this Greek N4544 from FTDNA, if he happens to be F2935 it might be some very distant clade that arrived there long time ago.

Regarding F2935 and Dacian area. There is not a single Romanian/Moldovan sample out of about 700 that has necessary STR's to be called likely F2935. There is one Bulgarian from Montana in a study who looks like a F2935 candidate, and one Greek from Macedonia also looks like a candidate but they also both have some unusual STR's for F2935 so some other options are there too.

A few days ago I spoke with the Turkish person who is R-F1019. He told me that his paternal granfather came to Turkey from Northern Greece and his ancestry before that was likely Bulgarian. So R-F1019 comes from a Balkan Turk which makes it more complicated I think. R-F1019 seems that existed among khazars but among them existed many Scytho-Sarmatian tribes so it could be in the area before the Khazars arrive. On the other hand this clade exists also in Central Asia.
Regarding the area of Dacia I know that the Polish at Ytree who is R-YP4768 has distant paternal Wallachian ancestry.
I will do BigY in the future but for now I am just thinking to buy the Snps F1019 and YP4768 from Yseq to check if I am positive.

 

[Aspurg]

A few days ago I spoke with the Turkish person who is R-F1019. He told me that his paternal granfather came to Turkey from Northern Greece and his ancestry before that was likely Bulgarian. So R-F1019 comes from a Balkan Turk which makes it more complicated I think. R-F1019 seems that existed among khazars but among them existed many Scytho-Sarmatian tribes so it could be in the area before the Khazars arrive. On the other hand this clade exists also in Central Asia.
Regarding the area of Dacia I know that the Polish at Ytree who is R-YP4768 has distant paternal Wallachian ancestry.
I will do BigY in the future but for now I am just thinking to buy the Snps F1019 and YP4768 from Yseq to check if I am positive.

Ah interesting that he mentions Balkan descent. Likely Khazar was Y37903, that makes him still 3100 ybp distant from this Turk per YFull, so Khazar might have very different path compared to others, I noticed one Abkhaz sporting similar haplotype. Pole doesn't have matches in Romania thus far but Romanians are undertested considering population size so he actually might be likely the descendant of Roxolani or Iazyges. There is one Italian who seems related to him at 8/37 and sharing some specific STR's at dys393 and dys607, so quite likely they form a subclade of their own. Some Sarmatians settled in Italy too, especially in late Antiquity.

When it comes to Z93 in the Pontic steppe, already Srubnaya was the first important wave and many waves followed after so it is not easy to discern to which wave particular Z93's belonged to. Newcomers assimilated locals, so likely plenty of Sarmatian Z93's were even pre-Scythian.

Yes BigY/NGS is best but SNP tests are a good interim solution, already tests for F1019 and YP4768 will tell you alot so good luck. Other Greek F2935 might be interesting too. On a Cyprus sample of 574 where Z93 was among covered SNP's 7 were Z93 with different haplotypes. Ofc Cypriots have plenty of lineages that are not common in Greece. None of those seem like F2935, one has dys385b=15 but doesn't match on other important STR's.

 

[mihaitzateo]

A little notice about Dacians, Geto-Dacians and Goths:
Roman Empire has retired its armies from the land of Dacia, because of the attacks of Carpi and Gothic people.
Carpi were Dacian tribes.
Gepids are scoring Southern, them being East Germanics.
There is a thread made by Dorkymon on Anthrogenica, about similarty between various people from Chernykov culture and Romanians, Yugos etc.

It is only a wild supposition that Dacians were related from an ethnical point of view to Illyrians.
Why?
If you search in the history, you will see that the Dacians were having a ritual to sacrifice a pig on the Winter Solstice and that the Dacians according to what was found in the archaelogical diggins were eating lots of pig meat.
Mister Hasdeu, in his book, "Perit-au dacii?" suposes that Dacians were raising only sheep and the pigs were brought by some other populations, but it seems mister Hasdeu did not had so much data.
Having a population called "Dacians" or "wolf people", which eats heavily pig meat, is considering war more interesting than the tilling of the land and never fought agains the Gothic tribes brings the opinion that Dacians might have been an East Germanic people.
I am referring to the ethnicity of the Dacians to try suppose the fact that most I2-din from Romania, seems to have been brought mostly by migrants that came with the Gothic tribes, from NW Poland not by the Slavic migration from 600-700 AD.
Between R1B is a little too much R1B-U106 and between R1A is a way too much R1A-M417, so the Dacians surely were not related to Illyrians.
Rather Dacians seems to have been East Germanics, that later got latinized and also suffered a Slavic influence at the language.
That R1A-M417 should also be of Dacian origins while I2-din, from both Dacians and Gothic people.
In regards to the E-HG, those were locals ,that were conquered and assimilated by Dacians.
Romanians, of Dacian origins, are scoring so called "East Balkanic" which is neither as the admixture of Albanians or Greeks, but neither as the admixture of Central Europeans as Hungarians, because Romanians are not scoring Panonia admixture.
So this shows that Dacia / Romania was not colonized heavily with people from Balkans, or Panonia, but local Dacians brought Gothic and West Slavic people, in addition to Ukrainians, which were brought later, as colonists, because Dacians were lacking population.
East Balkanic admixture peaks in Romanians and are also Romanians of Gothic/West Slavic/Ukrainian blood, that are scoring more Northwards, near Central Europe people.
So East Balkanic is clearly from the Dacian people,from Romania land, not from Balkanic people.

 

[mihaitzateo]

It would be interesting to see what R1A have Visigoths spreaded in Spain .
If it is having any connection with the R1A from Romania.
A lot of Spaniards were calling themselves Goths or Dacians, because the Visigoths founded the Spanish kingdom.
Now, these Visigoths surely had both Dacians and Gothic blood and mixed ethnicity, being Visigothic-Dacian people.

 

[Illyri]

It would be interesting to see what R1A have Visigoths spreaded in Spain .

The Goths might have brought (among others) in Spain, Southern France and Italy R1a-M558>CTS8816 (under Z280) but this is based on the modern distribution of this subclade (and, to my knowledge, still needs to be confirmed by ancient DNA).

Do you know whether CTS8816 and/or its subclades (Y2902/Y3301) are also present in Romania ?

 

[mihaitzateo]

The Goths might have brought (among others) in Spain, Southern France and Italy R1a-M558>CTS8816 (under Z280) but this is based on the modern distribution of this subclade (and, to my knowledge, still needs to be confirmed by ancient DNA).

Do you know whether CTS8816 and/or its subclades (Y2902/Y3301) are also present in Romania ?

No idea about Romania but R-CTS8816 makes most R1A in Balkans:
https://anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-6611.html
So most R1A from Balkans is of Dacian and/or Gothic origins, not of Slavic origins.
Whatever, most R1A from Balkans is of pre-Slavic migration from 600-700 AD origins.

 

[Illyri]

So most R1A from Balkans is of Dacian and/or Gothic origins, not of Slavic origins.
Whatever, most R1A from Balkans is of pre-Slavic migration from 600-700 AD origins.

Thanks for your answer and the link. While certain R1a subclades present in the Balkans may have been brought by Dacian/Gothic tribes, I do not think that this works for most R1a in the Balkans and for R-CTS8816 as whole. Distribution and high frequencies concentrated in Slavic countries speak against it. If you look at the map, it is unlikely that Dacians/Goths had such an impact in North Eastern Europe. Besides, it is hard to date the arrival of R1a in the Balkans without ancient DNA, the subclades' forming ages and TMRCA being inaccurate tools for that.

 

[Dibran]

No idea about Romania but R-CTS8816 makes most R1A in Balkans:
https://anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-6611.html
So most R1A from Balkans is of Dacian and/or Gothic origins, not of Slavic origins.
Whatever, most R1A from Balkans is of pre-Slavic migration from 600-700 AD origins.

Dude just stop. This is already explained to death. You speak alot with little to go on but your opinion. Opinions are like a-s-s'es; we all have one.

There is no evidence for any of what you propose yet. Most R1a in the Balkans IS from Slavic migrations. What isolated rare clades may be from earlier migrations remains to be seen.

Just stop it.

 

[Salento]

@Dibran I assume that it’s about this:

I “Assume” it's appropriate to say that:

When you Assume (ass u me) you make a ‘ass’ out of ‘u’ and ‘me’

LOL

 

[ntindeo]

"Eurogene k36 Ancient" is based on ancestors mainly from 1500-2000 years and more. Based on this, and on the DNA of the Romanian population from these tests, some conclusions can be drawn.
I found a few tested Romanians, on the net, and according to the maps, they have the greatest similarity with the ancient populations in the Dacia area, then with the west and the rest of the Balkans and then with the center of Europe. I think this is not very consistent with the migrations and invasions that have always come from the East - North East, at least they did not have a great impact on the ancient DNA of the area. As can be seen on the map, the Romanians still largely preserve their ancient "Dacian" DNA and of the local Balkan populations, from 1500 - 2000 and more years ago.
If so, then even bringing the main local haplogroups like I2 or even R1 from the east has no much credibility.

 

[Aspurg]

No idea about Romania but R-CTS8816 makes most R1A in Balkans:
https://anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-6611.html
So most R1A from Balkans is of Dacian and/or Gothic origins, not of Slavic origins.
Whatever, most R1A from Balkans is of pre-Slavic migration from 600-700 AD origins.

If an R1a is (proto) Thracian (including Northern Thracians/Dacians) it must be Z93 or Z92, clades such as M458 are automatically excluded. And Even for other Z280 it is next to impossible not to be Slavic. I've spotted very interesting Z92 branches and this is something in line with Thracian having numerous parallels to Baltic languages.

 

[mihaitzateo]

It is quite clear that the Gothic migration brought at least significant DNA and paternal lines in Romania and Balkans.
If those people were originally of West Slavic ancestry (like Wends and so on), but they turned to Gothic ethnics and later to Romanian ethnics, that is a different thing.
I have spoken with a Romanian archaeologist and he said that archaeological findings are attesting that both Dacians and Goths were living together, on the land of Romania/Dacia. Later, Slavs also joined the Dacians and Gothic ethnics.
Another thing, I highly doubt that all the Dacians were having the same DNA, but Dacians were an ethnicity, which means common language and customs.
It seems that Gothic people, early West Slavic people and Dacians were forming a group of people, which were quite close.
That includes that South Dacians, of mostly East Balkanic admixture with J2 and E and R1B paternal lines,but not only those Y DNA lines.
So, I think the Y DNA in Dacia, previous to the coming of Goths, was J2,E, R1B,R1A and I paternal lines, at least.
It is known from the history, that previous to the migration of Goths, in Dacia/Romania were also present SE European Celtic tribes and in the South East of the country, Scythians.
Those Scythians and SE Europe Celtic tribes came in Dacia before 0 AD, so more than 2000 years ago.
Is quite clear they had R1B,but I think not only R1B.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Thanks for your answer and the link. While certain R1a subclades present in the Balkans may have been brought by Dacian/Gothic tribes, I do not think that this works for most R1a in the Balkans and for R-CTS8816 as whole. Distribution and high frequencies concentrated in Slavic countries speak against it. If you look at the map, it is unlikely that Dacians/Goths had such an impact in North Eastern Europe. Besides, it is hard to date the arrival of R1a in the Balkans without ancient DNA, the subclades' forming ages and TMRCA being inaccurate tools for that.

Well,Slavic countries is about the mother tongue.
From my point of view, the "Slavic migrations" from 600-700 AD were people that were previously Gothic speakers,that moved in ex-Yugo lands, but now, they were speaking some West Slavic derived language.
The Gothic tribes were found till in West Poland and current DNA testing is not so advanced, to make a difference between West Slavic and Gothic and North Dacians people.
What is known is that Chernyakov culture were rather Gothic/Dacians, from a cultural point of view.
The Chernyakov culture people gave most migrants from 600-700 AD migration, called "Slavic".