MOESAN
Elite member
- Messages
- 5,893
- Reaction score
- 1,296
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Brittany
- Ethnic group
- more celtic
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b - L21/S145*
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H3c
perhaps outdated observations of mine? it is about today components, without comparisons to ancient DNA
The Eurogenes-15 pools (type populations on the autosomals ground) seems to me better than the Dodecad (12B? The ones on Eupedia maps) ones concerning Europe, as a whole: principally concerning Western Europe where they seem having broken down the 'northwest european' block into a 'western' one and a 'northern' or 'north-sea' one:
in some way the Dodecad 'north-west-european' seems the cumul of the 'west-european' and 'north-sea'; the Eurogenes 'north-european'-'north-sea' has the merit to better check the classical 'nordic' collective phenotype, spite a slight predominence in West when comparing southern countries between them – and this in fact 'north-sea' component is not absent in the East of Europe, nor even in the Steppes -
by component now:
'mediterranean': Eurogenes is centered on Sardinia like Dodecad but as awhole more occidental (less in Italy, South specially, less in Greece, Balkans and Anatolia, less too in North Europe – more «local» in some way -
'northwest-european': broken down into 'north-european/»north-sea»' and 'west-european' by Eurogenes – the center of 'west-european' seems being in basque country at first and then on western coasts of Europe and in central to southern Spain, - strong enough yet in northern Europe and west-central Europe - it could seem linked to y-R1b but this is not so evident in eastern Europe (+ Balkans and Greece!) which shows a bit more density than Italy (only Russia and Ukraina have less or not more) - for 'north-european' the center is Scandinavia but also N-W Germany, the Netherlands and the British Isles with a gradient when coming southward or Eastward – I see some difference with the global 'northwest-european' of Dodecad in Bela-Russ and Romania where the cumul of the two pools does not show a so important lack as show the Dodecad unique pooling – (but I find the Dodecad drawing better cheks the Y-DNA markers distributions...
'east-european-baltic': Eurogenes not too different from the Dodecad map, seeming more precise for the center of density but not as precise for the less concerned regions – I find better the Dodecad map concerning eastern France, Flanders and Scotland, by instance - the two maps show the same slight impact in Greece (Slavs? Or before them?) -
-west-asian': Eurogenes close to Dodecad again here, but less precise again too – and here again, the pushing of people came through South is not so evident in Romania (and Italy) in the Eurogenes map (Starcevo-Cucuteni-Tripolje places) – also: the weight of this component is very less marked in N-E Africa compared to Dodecad – advantage of the Eurogenes map: it shows the South Asia regions for this component: it shows a push southwards from the Steppes North the Hindu Kush and into northern Afghanistan, reducing the weight of 'west-asian' there -
-'southwest-asian': no too big differences even if in Egypte the weight of this component seems decreasing in Eurogenes when we go southward, and at the contrary seems stronger in Italy and Anatolia, as opposed to the Dodecad map – the «hole» of Dodecad in Basque country and Catalonha does not appears in Eurogenes map -
my conclusions about the maps: Dodecad (+ Eupedia!) puts more distinction in the weak percentages regions, what is not without advantage – it seems too more precise in regions partitions (more data? - more local surveys?) - but the true progress in Eurogenes is the differenciation between 'west-european' and 'north-european' -
Now, what to put in the 'west-european' bag?: when? - from where? - what types? - it seems linked to an old population akin to a part of the basques ancestors, maybe 'cro-magnoid' types – not absent from north-eastern Europe but not dominent there where 'baltic' is the typical element; I 'm not sure these 'cromagnoids' are the only element present in this 'west-european'... – if I had the courage I could bet on a more 'brünnoid' (partly brachycephalized in a 'borrebylike' element) in the Baltic component, even if things are not so simple – these people could have been arrived in Europe after the LGM, with north Solutrean, coming from eastern far Steppes (the believing of some old scholars) – they could have met 'cromagnoids' came northeastward after LGM too, coming from West and N-Iberia – a ready-to-use thinking because we can imagine too some of the two origins could have met before that, even during the LGM, in central-north-central Europe (at Brussel latitude by instance), even if the 'Brünn' «cousin» 'Combe-capelle' appeared in West only about the 9000/7000 BC...
The Eurogenes-15 pools (type populations on the autosomals ground) seems to me better than the Dodecad (12B? The ones on Eupedia maps) ones concerning Europe, as a whole: principally concerning Western Europe where they seem having broken down the 'northwest european' block into a 'western' one and a 'northern' or 'north-sea' one:
in some way the Dodecad 'north-west-european' seems the cumul of the 'west-european' and 'north-sea'; the Eurogenes 'north-european'-'north-sea' has the merit to better check the classical 'nordic' collective phenotype, spite a slight predominence in West when comparing southern countries between them – and this in fact 'north-sea' component is not absent in the East of Europe, nor even in the Steppes -
by component now:
'mediterranean': Eurogenes is centered on Sardinia like Dodecad but as awhole more occidental (less in Italy, South specially, less in Greece, Balkans and Anatolia, less too in North Europe – more «local» in some way -
'northwest-european': broken down into 'north-european/»north-sea»' and 'west-european' by Eurogenes – the center of 'west-european' seems being in basque country at first and then on western coasts of Europe and in central to southern Spain, - strong enough yet in northern Europe and west-central Europe - it could seem linked to y-R1b but this is not so evident in eastern Europe (+ Balkans and Greece!) which shows a bit more density than Italy (only Russia and Ukraina have less or not more) - for 'north-european' the center is Scandinavia but also N-W Germany, the Netherlands and the British Isles with a gradient when coming southward or Eastward – I see some difference with the global 'northwest-european' of Dodecad in Bela-Russ and Romania where the cumul of the two pools does not show a so important lack as show the Dodecad unique pooling – (but I find the Dodecad drawing better cheks the Y-DNA markers distributions...
'east-european-baltic': Eurogenes not too different from the Dodecad map, seeming more precise for the center of density but not as precise for the less concerned regions – I find better the Dodecad map concerning eastern France, Flanders and Scotland, by instance - the two maps show the same slight impact in Greece (Slavs? Or before them?) -
-west-asian': Eurogenes close to Dodecad again here, but less precise again too – and here again, the pushing of people came through South is not so evident in Romania (and Italy) in the Eurogenes map (Starcevo-Cucuteni-Tripolje places) – also: the weight of this component is very less marked in N-E Africa compared to Dodecad – advantage of the Eurogenes map: it shows the South Asia regions for this component: it shows a push southwards from the Steppes North the Hindu Kush and into northern Afghanistan, reducing the weight of 'west-asian' there -
-'southwest-asian': no too big differences even if in Egypte the weight of this component seems decreasing in Eurogenes when we go southward, and at the contrary seems stronger in Italy and Anatolia, as opposed to the Dodecad map – the «hole» of Dodecad in Basque country and Catalonha does not appears in Eurogenes map -
my conclusions about the maps: Dodecad (+ Eupedia!) puts more distinction in the weak percentages regions, what is not without advantage – it seems too more precise in regions partitions (more data? - more local surveys?) - but the true progress in Eurogenes is the differenciation between 'west-european' and 'north-european' -
Now, what to put in the 'west-european' bag?: when? - from where? - what types? - it seems linked to an old population akin to a part of the basques ancestors, maybe 'cro-magnoid' types – not absent from north-eastern Europe but not dominent there where 'baltic' is the typical element; I 'm not sure these 'cromagnoids' are the only element present in this 'west-european'... – if I had the courage I could bet on a more 'brünnoid' (partly brachycephalized in a 'borrebylike' element) in the Baltic component, even if things are not so simple – these people could have been arrived in Europe after the LGM, with north Solutrean, coming from eastern far Steppes (the believing of some old scholars) – they could have met 'cromagnoids' came northeastward after LGM too, coming from West and N-Iberia – a ready-to-use thinking because we can imagine too some of the two origins could have met before that, even during the LGM, in central-north-central Europe (at Brussel latitude by instance), even if the 'Brünn' «cousin» 'Combe-capelle' appeared in West only about the 9000/7000 BC...