Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

[Goga]

[image]http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg[/image]Maciamo's map would therefore be rendered useless. The "Armenian" component surely is R1b-Z2013 farmers moving up, while L23 downstream moved to the Balkans to form L51.

Yes you're very right. Respect that you have discovered actually such a huge mistake, but Maciamo did his best, and he was VERY close about this issue. On this map we can see R1b-Z2103 is entering Turkey from Greece, which is proven not to be true! And it is older than '2000-1200' BCE, because it was already in Yamnaya much earlier...

 

[Goga]

Has anyone noticed that the authors of Supplementary Section 11, which is where the Indo-European languages question is discussed, and where this quote appears, are:
Iosif Lazaridis, Wolfgang Haak, Nick Patterson, David Anthony and David Reich*.

With all due respect to Dr. Anthony, was he holding his nose or crossing his fingers? :grin: I would love to have been present during their discussions!

Seriously, you're overstating things, Goga. The comments are very cautious. Note that while the Armenian Plateau hypothesis may be gaining in plausibilty, " the question of what languages were spoken by the “Eastern European hunter-gatherers” and the southern, Armenian-like, ancestral population remains open." Also, "both south-north andnorth-south genetic influence across the Caucasus is plausible."

I think that the 'Armenian Model' is somehow acceptable for David Anthony, because it has many similarities with the 'Pontic-Caspian Steppe Model'. Everything is almost the same, only PIE is more to the south! This is what they're saying about it:

" 4. The “Armenian plateau hypothesis”7,16 which resembles the Steppe hypothesis in postulating a role for the steppe in the dispersal of languages into Europe, but places the homeland of Proto-Indo-European speakers south of the Caucasus. "

 

[Goga]

With other words they are giving the Russian academic Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov indirectly credits (for his so called 'Armenian Model') without admitting that he is right. Some people are just such a bad losers and too proud to admit that they're wrong!

 

[Aberdeen]

Since we now know that 12.5% of all the ancient Y DNA ever found in Spain is R1b, we can no longer dismiss the idea of R1b having a long history in Spain - we know that, at the very least, it's been there for over 7000 years.

That one R1b1 sample may be an anomaly but we just don't have enough data to be certain. At this point, we can't completely rule out the possibility that P-25, P297 and L-23 were widely distributed, with L51 and its downstream subclades possibly developing in Western Europe.

 

[Aberdeen]

I think that the 'Armenian Model' is somehow acceptable for David Anthony, because it has many similarities with the 'Pontic-Caspian Steppe Model'. Everything is almost the same, only PIE is more to the south! This is what they're saying about it:

" 4. The “Armenian plateau hypothesis”7,16 which resembles the Steppe hypothesis in postulating a role for the steppe in the dispersal of languages into Europe, but places the homeland of Proto-Indo-European speakers south of the Caucasus. "

While some people have assumed that Proto-Indo-European must have evolved in the same place that the IE cultural package came together, a lot of other people have suggested that the original linguistic homeland may not have been the same as the homeland of the people who developed the cultural package that lead to the expansion of IE languages and which could therefore be in one sense considered the Indo-European homeland, even if the language didn't start there. That idea has already been discussed on this forum.

 

[Silesian]

................ I was thinking that R1b-Z2103 entered Yamnaya and the Balkans at the same time. But if that was the case, there would be also some of it in Greece. Is there some R1b-Z2103 in Greece?

I believe these will be your R1b-Z2103 samples

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69


The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully

 

[LeBrok]

I see ~30% WHG (blue) in this chart.

I think you are right about Yamnaya being a mixture of other/basic admixtures. Definitely a mixture of ANE with WHG, and even some EEF. I don't want to speculate too much because I'm yet to find some time to read the paper. Yesterday I just skimmed it.
Do they say that they have built their Yamnaya admixture based on one Yamnaya hunter gatherer, or this admixture was compiled based on all 9 of them, some pastoralist/farmers?

Anyway, they sort of had to develop Yamnaya autosomal package/admixture to see how this package correlates with the rest of Europe. At quick glance their Yamnaya admixture is 40-40-10 ANE-WHG-EEF respectively.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I think you are right about Yamnaya being a mixture of other/basic admixtures. Definitely a mixture of ANE with WHG, and even some EEF. I don't want to speculate too much because I'm yet to find some time to read the paper. Yesterday I just skimmed it.
Do they say that they have built their Yamnaya admixture based on one Yamnaya hunter gatherer, or this admixture was compiled based on all 9 of them, some pastoralist/farmers?

Anyway, they sort of had to develop Yamnaya autosomal package/admixture to see how this package correlates with the rest of Europe. At quick glance their Yamnaya admixture is 40-40-10 ANE-WHG-EEF respectively.

have a look at figure 2b (underneath the PCA chart) : the K=16 admixture chart
there is very little variation among the Yamnaya individuals

 

[bicicleur 2]

I thought we will see R1a-Z93 in the far East of Yamnaya, not only R1b. However, I was hoping they can finally localize pre-european R1b somewhere, and finally they were found. I thought they were located on east side of Caspian Sea or more north where the dot on this map is way north of Caspian Sea.

Or on this map close to the right edge north of Caspian.

North of Black Sea where the sort of whole is in frequency of R1b, might be the location of R1a part of Yamnaya. Unfortunately there are no samples from this location.

I wonder how R1a split into western Z283 - L664 and eastern Z83.
Maybe they were in the zone north of the Caucasus where R1b first came into the Pontic Steppe and R1b came in between them.

 

[Maciamo]

hmm

in such case , Varna necropolis, Rudna Glava, and generally Vinca and para-Vinca cultures had no J2a,
I mean if J2a is upsent from Balkans before 1200 BC, they should be upsent also from copper mettalurgy, not bronze, but copper,
in such case who brought copper mettalurgy to balkans?
we know Vinca and para-Vincas are before bronze, meaning before R1*****, and Mycenae where build before 4000 BC 1500 years before arsenic bronze from steppe, theoritically start to enter south Balkans
beside in many settlements in Greece as the newly Platamon metaneolithic we see no arsenic bronze, in many areas till even after 1500 BC.
but Vincas knew copper and gold very well.


so then if J2xyz did not exist in Vincas, neither R1xyz, could copper spread there by? G2a? Ixyz, ?

There is also the possibility that J2a expanded from Anatolia to the Balkans during the Copper Age. But that remains to be proven as so far not a single J2a has been found in Copper Age Europe.

 

[Maciamo]

Close, but no cigar. Although it's a very fascinating theory. Nice try, respect! J2a folks were actually MOUNTAIN people and not SEA people.

One does not preclude the other. Would you say that the Greeks are mountain people or sea people ? I'd say both. Anyway the Minoans, Phoenicians, classical Greeks, medieval Venetians and even Renaissance Portuguese all had a lot of J2a and were all seafaring peoples.

Other West Asian J2a may not have had the opportunity to become navigators and sea traders because they lived far from the sea. That was their original homeland. But J2a expanded best across the sea.

This is not true of all people who lived in coastal areas. The Indians or East Asians never really cared about creating maritime empires. Neither did the Sardinians or the North Africans, nor even the Basques/Gascons or the Illyrians - all people with no or little J2a. Celtic people were also never very interested by the sea.

The only other major maritime ethnic group were Germanic people (Vikings, Dutch, English). What differentiated them from Italic, Celtic or Slavic people is the presence of haplogroup I1.

There must have been some character traits in the J2a and I1 gene pools that encouraged maritime exploration. I am not saying that the genes were located on the Y-chromosome. Just that the genes for that character were found at higher frequency among I1 and J2a populations (just like genes for individualism are found at higher frequency among R1b populations today).

 

[bicicleur 2]

There is also the possibility that J2a expanded from Anatolia to the Balkans during the Copper Age. But that remains to be proven as so far not a single J2a has been found in Copper Age Europe.

copper age Hungarian was very related to early Neolithic Hungarian



and ötzi 3300 BC was G2a2b-L91

furthermore Catal Hoyuk knew metallurgy and they were related to early Hungarian Neolithic, but not to Levantine/southeast Anatolian PPNB :

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30863-the-origin-of-the-early-european-farmer

so copper melting in the Balkans might be brought by G2a2 as well

 

[Maciamo]

The U4 is a bit of mystery. It wasn't found in Yamnaya and neither in iron age and medieval Poland. On the other hand it was found in Lombards settlement in Hungary.

U4 was originally a forest-steppe lineage. We can know this because it was found in the Corded Ware, Catacomb and Andronovo cultures, all cultures that I have associated with the R1a branch of Indo-Europeans. Archeologically it is almost certain that the Catacomb culture originated in the forest-steppe and expanded south, taking over the territory of the Yamna culture. That is probably the main turning point for the high incidence of R1b from the Pontic Steppe, and it's progressive replacement by R1a lineages.

 

[Sile]

I was just wondering if the gothic, burgundian, vandals, lombards and other "germanic" peoples of poland and old east germany where in majority R1b ..............they vacated their lands completly. .....more so than any other area of Europe.................Its the only way I can see a replacement of the early R1b by a leter R1a people

 

[Maciamo]

I wonder how R1a split into western Z283 - L664 and eastern Z83.
Maybe they were in the zone north of the Caucasus where R1b first came into the Pontic Steppe and R1b came in between them.

The way I see it is that:

- L664 was present in the Pontic Steppe (southern Ukraine and southern Russia) when R1b people arrived from the Caucasus region. R1a-L664 became a minority lineage accompanying R1b-L11 to western Europe.

- Z283 was the main Corded Ware lineage originating in northern Ukraine and Belarus. It experienced a mainly westward expansion.

- Z93 originating in the Russian forest-steppe between Belarus and the Urals. It had an eastward expansion with Abashevo and Sintashta.

This is how the three R1a branches split from one another.

 

[arvistro]

Ok. My initial assumption that whatever was living in/near Baltics got overpopulated by Yamna-> Corded Ware was oversimplistic. It seems that whatever was living in/near Baltics could have been Yamna-like already before Yamna
Also if Yamna/Corded did not bring EEF to Baltics, then who did? We apparently have non-Yamna EEF according those admixture tables, since Baltic folk (Lit, Est) is modelled as EEF+WHG+Yamna.

 

[Maciamo]

copper age Hungarian was very related to early Neolithic Hungarian

View attachment 7072

and ötzi 3300 BC was G2a2b-L91

furthermore Catal Hoyuk knew metallurgy and they were related to early Hungarian Neolithic, but not to Levantine/southeast Anatolian PPNB :

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30863-the-origin-of-the-early-european-farmer

so copper melting in the Balkans might be brought by G2a2 as well

The fact that one Copper Age individual (Ötzi) was G2a2 like Neolithic Europeans doesn't prove anything. It only shows that at least some Neolithic lineages survived until the Copper Age, but why wouldn't it ? It doesn't mean that other people didn't bring copper-working technology from the Near East. We'll know once we have more Chalcolithic samples from the Balkans (and Anatolia).

Anyway, Yetos was saying that J2a came from Anatolia to the Balkans during the Copper Age. I only said that it's possible but so far no data supports this hypothesis.

 

[Maciamo]

Ok. My initial assumption that whatever was living in/near Baltics got overpopulated by Yamna-> Corded Ware was oversimplistic. It seems that whatever was living in/near Baltics could have been Yamna-like already before Yamna
Also if Yamna/Corded did not bring EEF to Baltics, then who did? We apparently have non-Yamna EEF according those admixture tables, since Baltic folk (Lit, Est) is modelled as EEF+WHG+Yamna.

As far as admixtures are concerned, millennia of intermixing between neighbours (even from village to village) could easily have introduced EEF admixture to the Baltic without requiring any major migration. Admixtures even out amazingly well across regions and even continents given enough time and open borders (or changing borders, which was often the case in European history).

 

[Sile]

copper age Hungarian was very related to early Neolithic Hungarian

View attachment 7072

and ötzi 3300 BC was G2a2b-L91

furthermore Catal Hoyuk knew metallurgy and they were related to early Hungarian Neolithic, but not to Levantine/southeast Anatolian PPNB :

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30863-the-origin-of-the-early-european-farmer

so copper melting in the Balkans might be brought by G2a2 as well

well another 4 x oetzi found in central germany G2a2a ...........but I think the a and b split ( g2a2 ) means either anatolia or caucasus

 

[Tomenable]

they vacated their lands completly. .....more so than any other area of Europe.................Its the only way I can see a replacement of the early R1b by a leter R1a people

Well - G2a2 (the dominant hg in much of Neolithic Western Europe) did not vacate anywhere, and yet got replaced by other HGs. Also R1b could be replaced without vacating anywhere. Though it is considered that during the mid-Neolithic there was a huge population decline most likely caused by deadly infectious diseases contracted from domestic animals.

According to Shennan 2009, "Evolutionary Demography and the Population History of the European Early Neolithic", in the 5th millenium BC there was a dramatic fall in the population level which remained low for nearly a millenium (so until this massive immigration from the steppe - it seems). That was probably something like the Medieval Black Death.