Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

[Sile]

Where on earth do you get these ideas? The gossip of the ancient Greeks and Romans about their neighbors and competitors? There is actual scholarship in this field, you know.

If nothing else, at least start with Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_society
"The princely tombs were not of individuals. The inscriptional evidence shows that families were interred there over long periods, marking the growth of the aristocratic family as a fixed institution, parallel to the gens at Rome and perhaps even its model. It is not an Etruscan original, as there is no sign of it in the Villanovan. The Etruscans could have used any model of the eastern Mediterranean. That the growth of this class is related to the new acquisition of wealth through trade is unquestioned. The wealthiest cities were located near the coast.

The Etruscan name of the family was lautn.^[1] At the center of the lautn was the married couple, tusurthir. The Etruscans were a monogamous society that emphasized pairing. The lids of large numbers of sarcophagi (for example, the "Sarcophagus of the Spouses") are adorned with sculpted couples, smiling, in the prime of life (even if the remains were of persons advanced in age), reclining next to each other or with arms around each other. The bond was obviously a close one by social preference
It is possible that Greek and Roman attitudes to the Etruscans were based on a misunderstanding of the place of women within their society. In both Greece and Republican Rome, respectable women were mostly confined to the house and mixed-sex socialising did not occur. Thus the freedom of women within Etruscan society could have been misunderstood as implying their sexual availability.
It is worth noting that a number of Etruscan tombs carry funerary inscriptions in the form 'X son of [father] and [mother]', indicating the importance of the mother's side of the family."


http://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1153&context=etruscan_studies

https://books.google.com/books?id=2...=marriage in Etruscan society society&f=false

Nothing was more sacred to the Etruscans than the family unit, and that included verified lines of descent from both father and
mother:
http://www.inter-disciplinary.net/at-the-interface/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/sandhoffewfpaper.pdf

Ancient Marriage in Both Myth and Reality:
http://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/57805

In five more minutes I could compile a list of dozens of scholarly references, but an analysis of Etruscan marriage is off topic. If you wish to discuss Etruscan marriage habits perhaps you might care to open a thread about it or add to an existing thread on their culture. However, the scholarship is what it is and it bears no resemblance to what you stated in your post.

historians
Many Greek and Roman authors including Theopompus of Chios and Plato referred to the Etruscans as immoral. During later Roman times, the word Etruscan was almost synonomous with prostitute, and Livy's histories moralise about the rape of Lucretia, where Roman women are seen as virtuous model wives in comparison to their liberated Etruscan counterparts. On this site we shall examine the evidence given by these sources and also from Necropolis art such as the "Tomb of the Bulls" in Tarquinia.

Sharing wives is an established Etruscan custom. Etruscan women take particular care of their bodies and exercise often, sometimes along with the men, and sometimes by themselves. It is not a disgrace for them to be seen naked. They do not share their couches with their husbands but with the other men who happen to be present, and they propose toasts to anyone they choose. They are expert drinkers and very attractive. The Etruscans raise all the children that are born, without knowing who their fathers are. The children live the way their parents live, often attending drinking parties and having sexual relations with all the women. It is no disgrace for them to do anything in the open, or to be seen having it done to them, for they consider it a native custom. So far from thinking it disgraceful, they say when someone ask to see the master of the house, and he is making love, that he is doing so-and-so, calling the indecent action by its name.

When they are having sexual relations either with courtesans or within their family, they do as follows: after they have stopped drinking and are about to go to bed, while the lamps are still lit, servants bring in courtesans, or boys, or sometimes even their wives. And when they have enjoyed these they bring in boys, and make love to them. They sometimes make love and have intercourse while people are watching them, but most of the time they put screens woven of sticks around the beds, and throw cloths on top of them.

They are keen on making love to women, but they particularly enjoy boys and youths. The youths in Etruria are very good-looking, because they live in luxury and keep their bodies smooth. In fact all the barbarians in the West use pitch to pull out and shave off the hair on their bodies.



one of very many sites
http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/theopompus/

all have same conclusion

 

[Angela]

historians
Many Greek and Roman authors including Theopompus of Chios and Plato referred to the Etruscans as immoral. During later Roman times, the word Etruscan was almost synonomous with prostitute, and Livy's histories moralise about the rape of Lucretia, where Roman women are seen as virtuous model wives in comparison to their liberated Etruscan counterparts. On this site we shall examine the evidence given by these sources and also from Necropolis art such as the "Tomb of the Bulls" in Tarquinia.

Sharing wives is an established Etruscan custom. Etruscan women take particular care of their bodies and exercise often, sometimes along with the men, and sometimes by themselves. It is not a disgrace for them to be seen naked. They do not share their couches with their husbands but with the other men who happen to be present, and they propose toasts to anyone they choose. They are expert drinkers and very attractive. The Etruscans raise all the children that are born, without knowing who their fathers are. The children live the way their parents live, often attending drinking parties and having sexual relations with all the women. It is no disgrace for them to do anything in the open, or to be seen having it done to them, for they consider it a native custom. So far from thinking it disgraceful, they say when someone ask to see the master of the house, and he is making love, that he is doing so-and-so, calling the indecent action by its name.

When they are having sexual relations either with courtesans or within their family, they do as follows: after they have stopped drinking and are about to go to bed, while the lamps are still lit, servants bring in courtesans, or boys, or sometimes even their wives. And when they have enjoyed these they bring in boys, and make love to them. They sometimes make love and have intercourse while people are watching them, but most of the time they put screens woven of sticks around the beds, and throw cloths on top of them.

They are keen on making love to women, but they particularly enjoy boys and youths. The youths in Etruria are very good-looking, because they live in luxury and keep their bodies smooth. In fact all the barbarians in the West use pitch to pull out and shave off the hair on their bodies.



one of very many sites
http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/theopompus/

all have same conclusion

As I thought, the gossip of ancient authors. As for the internet link, if you consider the kind of internet sites written by uneducated, practically an-alphabet young men with smutty minds authoritative there is really nothing more to be said. Try to run that by a classics or history professor someday, or even an art historian. Good luck with that.

If you have any more such unimpeachably authoritative scholarly references, be sure to post them on a thread about the Etruscans, not here.

 

[Alan]

That may not sound very "Steppic" but to me it sounds fairly "Uralic". IMO, the IE language could have originated with either R1b people from the Caucasus or with R1a Russian hunter gatherers, or a synthesis of the two, and we don't have enough evidence yet to decide.

Near a lake

As far as I know there is no lake in or close enough to the Urals.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._in_Russia.svg/2000px-Urals_in_Russia.svg.png

North of the Caspian or Black Sea would work, if it was mountainous, but it is Steppe land.

South,East and West of the Caspian or South, East of the Black Sea is mountainous and near a lake.

However I do not disagree that Proto IE might have originated with a synthesis of herders from South and H&G from further North. But you are forgetting one thing. Typical for H&G have always been I and C. Not R1b or R1a.

In fact the only H&G from North who had these Haplogroups were significantly Gedrosia admixed. And no basal R1a found there yet.

IMO there are still three competing theories. West of the Caspian (West Asian highlands), PC Steppes or East of the Caspian(South_Central Asia).

 

[LeBrok]

this "bride" business is ridiculous, ..........was there marriage in this period of history? ..............does anyone have proof?

The simple answer is that anyone bedded anyone, by force or not ..................we even see this much later in later etruscan society, that even though a couple was in union ( was their marriage ?), their was a agreement that anyone could bed anyone else without issue.....................which is why the man was never really sure if the child was really his.

I'm not sure if there were no issues in their liberal ways. By nature men are rather possessive, especially the farmer men, and farmer women are very jealous beasts too. My point is that, if they were more liberal in their ways than Romans and others, it was on a small scale than some liberal authors want to believe.
However, I remember reading about rather interesting customs of Spartans. Often husbands were willing to let their wives to sleep around, if they were unable to conceive a child together. It might have been do to a high level of homosexuality in their society. Number of spartans were falling steadily through centuries till puff, they were gone.

The most likely scenario is that either the women moved with the men that could feed her and her children or she was taken against her will

I agree.

 

[LeBrok]

When they are having sexual relations either with courtesans or within their family, they do as follows: after they have stopped drinking and are about to go to bed, while the lamps are still lit, servants bring in courtesans, or boys, or sometimes even their wives. And when they have enjoyed these they bring in boys, and make love to them. They sometimes make love and have intercourse while people are watching them, but most of the time they put screens woven of sticks around the beds, and throw cloths on top of them.


one of very many sites
http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/theopompus/

all have same conclusion

I don't know the ancient authors and how believable they are. We also need to understand that Etruscans were enemies of Rome. How would you describe culture of your enemy? It is easier to attack and conquer these strange and different people if they are immoral, homosexual, rotten, sinful people. The more you hate and alienate your enemy the easier it is to fight and kill them.

Consider this. Many people when learning about Kamasutra they immediately imagine that Indian society is very open and liberal in their ways. Well, try going to Indian village and show kamasutra pictures. You'll be lucky to escape alive. Indian villagers are very traditional and puritan people, with men very possessive and controlling women to the extreme. Women are covered from head to toes, and adultery is punished by death.

 

[Tone]

historians
Many Greek and Roman authors including Theopompus of Chios and Plato referred to the Etruscans as immoral.

Of course the Greeks and Romans referred to the Etruscans as immoral. They were enemies.

We still do that in our culture today - taunting those we dislike as being "gay" or being "whores."

 

[LeBrok]

Of course the Greeks and Romans referred to the Etruscans as immoral. They were enemies.

We still do that in our culture today - taunting those we dislike as being "gay" or being "whores."

Exactly my observation too. And this is exactly how poster Ike (Yugoslavian) describes today's Western World.

 

[Aberdeen]

Near a lake

As far as I know there is no lake in or close enough to the Urals.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._in_Russia.svg/2000px-Urals_in_Russia.svg.png

North of the Caspian or Black Sea would work, if it was mountainous, but it is Steppe land.

South,East and West of the Caspian or South, East of the Black Sea is mountainous and near a lake.

However I do not disagree that Proto IE might have originated with a synthesis of herders from South and H&G from further North. But you are forgetting one thing. Typical for H&G have always been I and C. Not R1b or R1a.

In fact the only H&G from North who had these Haplogroups were significantly Gedrosia admixed. And no basal R1a found there yet.

IMO there are still three competing theories. West of the Caspian (West Asian highlands), PC Steppes or East of the Caspian(South_Central Asia).

There are in fact a lot of rather large lakes in the Ural Mountains. What we don't have from that area is sufficient testing of old DNA that would tell us the genetic makeup of Russian hunter gatherers. We cannot assume it would be the same as WHG, especially when the present distribution of R1a Z282 suggests that it was probably prevalent in eastern Europe in the past.

 

[Aberdeen]

historians
Many Greek and Roman authors including Theopompus of Chios and Plato referred to the Etruscans as immoral. During later Roman times, the word Etruscan was almost synonomous with prostitute, and Livy's histories moralise about the rape of Lucretia, where Roman women are seen as virtuous model wives in comparison to their liberated Etruscan counterparts. On this site we shall examine the evidence given by these sources and also from Necropolis art such as the "Tomb of the Bulls" in Tarquinia.

Sharing wives is an established Etruscan custom. Etruscan women take particular care of their bodies and exercise often, sometimes along with the men, and sometimes by themselves. It is not a disgrace for them to be seen naked. They do not share their couches with their husbands but with the other men who happen to be present, and they propose toasts to anyone they choose. They are expert drinkers and very attractive. The Etruscans raise all the children that are born, without knowing who their fathers are. The children live the way their parents live, often attending drinking parties and having sexual relations with all the women. It is no disgrace for them to do anything in the open, or to be seen having it done to them, for they consider it a native custom. So far from thinking it disgraceful, they say when someone ask to see the master of the house, and he is making love, that he is doing so-and-so, calling the indecent action by its name.

When they are having sexual relations either with courtesans or within their family, they do as follows: after they have stopped drinking and are about to go to bed, while the lamps are still lit, servants bring in courtesans, or boys, or sometimes even their wives. And when they have enjoyed these they bring in boys, and make love to them. They sometimes make love and have intercourse while people are watching them, but most of the time they put screens woven of sticks around the beds, and throw cloths on top of them.

They are keen on making love to women, but they particularly enjoy boys and youths. The youths in Etruria are very good-looking, because they live in luxury and keep their bodies smooth. In fact all the barbarians in the West use pitch to pull out and shave off the hair on their bodies.



one of very many sites
http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/theopompus/

all have same conclusion

The Romans talked similar crap about the Celts, in contradiction to what other people, such as the Greeks, had to say about the Celtic tribes. So that passage about the Etruscans just seems to me to be a propaganda piece used to justify Roman hostility toward Etruscans.

 

[Tomenable]

Typical for H&G have always been I and C. Not R1b or R1a.

All haplogroups were at some point typical for H&Gs (because at some point all humans were hunter-gatherers).

The only question is where did H&Gs of each haplogroup live. And it seems that R1a and R1b lived in the east.

I made a map showing the distribution of Mesolithic and Neolithic Y-DNA haplotypes from Europe found so far:

 

[Tomenable]

Roman authors including Theopompus of Chios and Plato referred to the Etruscans as immoral.

Another Roman author - Tacitus - called Germanic people lazy and living in dirtiness and sloth.

And this is exactly how poster Ike (Yugoslavian) describes today's Western World.

And today's Western World looks down on Yugoslavians in a similar way as Tacitus did on Germanic tribes.

Etruscans were (at the time of each of those descriptions) more civilized than Romans, while Germanic tribes less civilized.

So perhaps we tend to call ones more civilized than ourselves "immoral", while ones less civilized "lazy and dirty".

 

[LeBrok]

Another Roman author - Tacitus - called Germanic people lazy, and living in dirtiness and sloth.

Soon we'll open a thread "Were Romans racist?".

 

[Tomenable]

Livy's histories moralise about the rape of Lucretia, where Roman women are seen as virtuous model wives in comparison to their liberated Etruscan counterparts.

And - ironically - Tacitus described Germanic women as virtuous and faithful model wives in comparison to liberated Roman women of his time (even though the same Tacitus called Germanic people, especially their men, lazy and dirty).

There is a documentary (link) about Americans who hunt for wives in Ukraine and claim that Ukrainian women are virtuous model wives in comparison to liberated American women. But they do not speak highly of Ukrainian men.

Some things don't change over thousands of years, it seems.

============================

The documentary in question:

 

[Angela]

@Aberdeen, Tome, LeBrok,
This is exactly what I was getting at when I said that the quoted piece was "ancient gossip"; it is ancient gossip written by their commercial and territorial competitors.

The study of Etruscan culture is a huge discipline in and of itself. To my knowledge, no modern scholar specializing in the study of them adheres to the view of their culture espoused in that "hit piece".

However, it is true that their culture differed in some ways from that of the Greeks and the early Romans with whom they came into contact, most specifically in terms of their view of sexuality and openness about it, and in the role of women in their society, which left them open to these kinds of scurrilous attacks. For people among whom women were expected to stay in the home and rarely come into contact with males other than those who were members of their families, to see women at banquets, or exercising, or having any role outside the home etc. was scandalous. There are lots of other examples.

If you have some time, the sources to which I linked are quite interesting. One of them explores the specific issue of marriage in Etruscan society and the central place that the husband/wife bond occupied in that society. Their art, which often features funerary statuary showing husband and wife in an embrace reflects that reality, a reality which didn't have that centrality in the societies of their contemporaries.

As to LeBrok's point about the Kamasutra, a celebration of sensuality can co-exist in a society along with societal norms that limit it to marriage or other socially controlled arrangements. Likewise, it can exist alongside very strong territoriality in terms of one's "spouse". Sexual jealousy, sometimes in quite extreme forms, can and does exist in such societies. It is not necessarily true that the most promiscuous societies are the most "sensual". In fact it's sometimes the exact opposite.

Here, however, I'm wandering afield.

 

[MOESAN]

I'm not sure if there were no issues in their liberal ways. By nature men are rather possessive, especially the farmer men, and farmer women are very jealous beasts too. My point is that, if they were more liberal in their ways than Romans and others, it was on a small scale than some liberal authors want to believe.
However, I remember reading about rather interesting customs of Spartans. Often husbands were willing to let their wives to sleep around, if they were unable to conceive a child together. It might have been do to a high level of homosexuality in their society. Number of spartans were falling steadily through centuries till puff, they were gone.


I agree.

NOT AN ANSWER // JUST TO REMARK THE POST UNDER MY NAME OF 'MOESAN' WAS NOT WRITTEN BY MYSELF !!! SAME ERROR ALREADY OCCURRED BEFORE IN SOME THREAD HELAS

 

[MOESAN]

correction: the quotes are not completely false, but confusing -
not too much important, doesn't perturb world march
good night , gud nicht,oidhche vath

 

[Aberdeen]

Soon we'll open a thread "Were Romans racist?".

Instead of asking "Were Romans racist?", I think it would be more useful to ask "If any race or nation describe another race or nation as bad, evil, lazy, promiscuous, or as deserving other negative descriptions, is that evidence that they're trying to justify bad behavior toward the group they criticize?" The answer would seem to be yes.

 

[Sile]

NOT AN ANSWER // JUST TO REMARK THE POST UNDER MY NAME OF 'MOESAN' WAS NOT WRITTEN BY MYSELF !!! SAME ERROR ALREADY OCCURRED BEFORE IN SOME THREAD HELAS

Where did you get this quote under my name...............I do not recall ever writing this, it is not my format:annoyed:

 

[LeBrok]

Instead of asking "Were Romans racist?", I think it would be more useful to ask "If any race or nation describe another race or nation as bad, evil, lazy, promiscuous, or as deserving other negative descriptions, is that evidence that they're trying to justify bad behavior toward the group they criticize?" The answer would seem to be yes.

Of course we are trying to justify our behavior, our wants and possessiveness, and it comes so easy to us, because it is our nature. The hardwire group defending instinct, to vindicate us and diminish others.

 

[LeBrok]

Where did you get this quote under my name...............I do not recall ever writing this, it is not my format:annoyed:

Can't you see that the quotes are messed up in your post too? Are you quoting Moesan or me?