Mediterranean Race–Problems of Classification

[Angela]

For people interested in the genetics of phenotypes, they might be interested in this:

http://theconversation.com/how-we-f...l-nose-shape-and-what-they-say-about-us-59837

[h=1]"A genome-wide association scan implicates DCHS2, RUNX2, GLI3, PAX1 and EDAR in human facial variation"
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms11616[/h]
Also, a prior thread discussed this:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33768-Nose-Shape-and-Climate-Adaptation?highlight=nose

There have been a number of recent papers referencing the fact that there seems to be selection for increased height in northern Europeans and decreased height in some southern Europeans, i.e. in Spain. This is an example.
http://mathii.github.io/review/2015/10/21/selection-on-height-in-europe

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/03/13/016477

There was also a paper indicating that there was selection for dark eyes in southern Europe.

 

[Balkanite]

So there are indications that within the European genes, geography poses a selection criteria. The South of Europe, generally, favors dark eyes. I say generally because there are variations also within it.


I found this map for other reasons but might interest you because of a specific 'Dinaric feature'

For me it makes sense that albania splits into north and south, geg and tosk because it is at a transition climatic zone. The North is less affected by sun (it never dries out even in the hottest summers), while the south does a bit away from the mountain regions. It is easier to fined more blue eyed in the north than in the south (especially the flat lands).Can you by any chance pick-point Basque and Armenian-like?

What are the darker spots? Is it a height map or something? I don't understand it
They all seem to be on the west coasts

 

[Bergin]

What are the darker spots? Is it a height map or something? I don't understand it
They all seem to be on the west coasts

Average rain fall (1945-1995) in mm. (you take a 1x1 meter square bucket and check how much water it collected during the year).
Most is on the boundaries between mountains and oceans/seas.

Lol, I dont think it has connections with the western civilization, but your comment made me doubt for one second.

 

[MOESAN]

Mathieson et al, Nature 2015 (see figure 3).
or open access:
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/03/13/016477.full.pdf




75 The derived allele of rs12913832 at the HERC2/OCA2 locus is the primary determinant of blue eyes in Europeans, and may also contribute to light skin and hair pigmentation25-28. Our analysis detects a genome-wide signal of selection at this locus, but instead of the signal being one of positive selection with a coefficient of 0.036 as in a previous study of ancient DNA in the eastern Europe steppe8, our signal is of
weakly negative selection (������ =-0.007, CI = -0.011 to -0.001). One possible explanation is local adaptation: that the allele is advantageous in the north and disadvantageous in the south of Europe. This hypothesis is
supported by the fact that our data shows that an extreme north-south gradient in allele frequencies has been maintained in Europe for the last 8,000 years (Figure 2C, Extended data Figure 3).

I agree for the theory but the phenotypes SNPs are studied on very tiny samples todate - the selection is or has been surely at work as a whole (why not?) but if you study more accutely today pops in close places (someones since 2000 years or more and this spite some local intercrossings) you see differences in pigmentation or stature which contradict a strong and too recent selection; I don't know how will work selection upon coming generations with our medecine, drugs, indoor life and so on? Surely even slower, without speaking of the recent intercontinental crossings increasing in number which complicate the analysis

 

[ROS]

If you live in the south of Europe, the adaptation to the environment consists of: if you have clear eyes the amount of sun we receive makes you always scandal, if you have an excessively clear skin you can have problems with skin cancer, so the adaptation to the Half happens to have dark eyes and brown skin, now I have neighbors with very clear skin and blue eyes that all their ancestors are from the area, south on the banks of the meditarreaneo. Therefore I believe that if a group of Iberian Meditrienne was grouped and moved to Scandinavia within 1000 years all would be blond with blue eyes and skin would clrara.

 

[ROS]

Es muy simple adaptaci?n al medio.

 

[ROS]

The Mediterranean race does not have any problem of classification since such race does not exist, according to the modern genetic science in which it consists? Are we more Neolithic than the North? a little more? What if it is clear is that Europe was born in the Mediterranean and its foundation is the Greco-Latin culture and the rest is an evolution of it.

 

[MOESAN]

If you live in the south of Europe, the adaptation to the environment consists of: if you have clear eyes the amount of sun we receive makes you always scandal, if you have an excessively clear skin you can have problems with skin cancer, so the adaptation to the Half happens to have dark eyes and brown skin, now I have neighbors with very clear skin and blue eyes that all their ancestors are from the area, south on the banks of the meditarreaneo. Therefore I believe that if a group of Iberian Meditrienne was grouped and moved to Scandinavia within 1000 years all would be blond with blue eyes and skin would clrara.

a bit simplistic: 1000 years is a bit short too for pigmentation, even if some plague could select "good" genes more quickly. By the way all Scandinavians and Finns are not blond, the most northern are darker, and the Eskimos/Inuits are darker; some disadvantages born by genes perdure because they don't prevent reproduction. In hot climates, very light skin could disappear, more or less slowly, by sexual selection (a burned/roasted skin man could be less attractive...who knows), surely not blond hair and blues eyes, rare, so attractive. Pops of albinos are surviving in Africa, and they can reproduce themselves, they decrease seemingly more by the criminal actions of their normal brethren than by natural selection even if (I don't precisely know) their mean life time is surely very shorter than the norm. All that is theoric I think, and if we read some books, we have to read more books and to observe and reason too. As already said, even some proved letal genes at homozygotic level are preserved in pops and scientists are trying to understand why; surely because they present advantages at a heterozygotic level. And genes are linked on a chromosome even if the link can be broken at some frequence by crossing over) and there are interactions and also balance possible. All the way, selection needs mutations in some way.
a

 

[MOESAN]

The Mediterranean race does not have any problem of classification since such race does not exist, according to the modern genetic science in which it consists? Are we more Neolithic than the North? a little more? What if it is clear is that Europe was born in the Mediterranean and its foundation is the Greco-Latin culture and the rest is an evolution of it.

type' for me is not 'race' but an idealized (syntheticized) statistical representation of some phenotypical traits dominant somewhere which can be used in crossings of pops to roughly evaluate weight of every pop involved in it. It is not useless when you don't have auDNA at hand, and even when you have this auDNA, when it's correctly made (among the ancient anthropologists, a lot has been proved very inaccurate and biased, it's true).
That said even some animals "races" have been proved to be only superficial differences when auDNA has been studied (I red it concerning some birds) but it's not too common! Animals don't cover the whole globe as Mankind does and are more "compartimented".
'

 

[ROS]

Is that in the discussion, if I am not tricked by the translator, "Mediterranea race classification problems".


I am not an expert on these issues, just an amateur, but I would like someone to explain to me from a scientific point of view, what is a meditarranea race ?, I understand that the subject requires enough seriousness for this issue not to focus from a point Political, suedocientifico or even mit?logico.

 

[Azzurro]

Is that in the discussion, if I am not tricked by the translator, "Mediterranea race classification problems".


I am not an expert on these issues, just an amateur, but I would like someone to explain to me from a scientific point of view, what is a meditarranea race ?, I understand that the subject requires enough seriousness for this issue not to focus from a point Political, suedocientifico or even mit�logico.

Essentially it has to do with 4 autosomal components, Neolithic Farmer, Natufian/Levant Neolithic like ancestry, Iran Chalcolithic/Armenian CHL/Mesopotamian and North African.

 

[ROS]

Essentially it has to do with 4 autosomal components, Neolithic Farmer, Natufian/Levant Neolithic like ancestry, Iran Chalcolithic/Armenian CHL/Mesopotamian and North African.

The variety of people meditarrenaos simplify in that and also call it race, What scientific has said this? And that it is based?, I for the moment I do not believe it.


It is necessary to take into account that mediterraneo is the south of France, practically all italy, greece, turkey, all the north of africa, peninsula iberica, etc. To this variety of towns can be included within a label, are very different, or that part of the Mediterranean we are talking and we call it Mediterranean race ?.


If they are not geographic criteria when labeling as race, because obviously it is impossible to consider a race to all the houses bordering the Mediterranean, on what criteria is it based that they do not have the problem of being biased?


I believe that there is an evolution of science in genetic issues very important, but there is a scientific weakness when it comes to labeling, especially in the autosomic subject.

 

[Azzurro]

The variety of people meditarrenaos simplify in that and also call it race, What scientific has said this? And that it is based?, I for the moment I do not believe it.


It is necessary to take into account that mediterraneo is the south of France, practically all italy, greece, turkey, all the north of africa, peninsula iberica, etc. To this variety of towns can be included within a label, are very different, or that part of the Mediterranean we are talking and we call it Mediterranean race ?.


If they are not geographic criteria when labeling as race, because obviously it is impossible to consider a race to all the houses bordering the Mediterranean, on what criteria is it based that they do not have the problem of being biased?


I believe that there is an evolution of science in genetic issues very important, but there is a scientific weakness when it comes to labeling, especially in the autosomic subject.

My personal opinion, I don't believe that their is different races, after all we are all human beings, Mediterranean race is just a label, the most accurate definition would be it is a Meta Ethnicity, it is a fusion of ethnicity and culture, the 4 autosomal components that I named can all be found in the Mediterranean region and it is part of the mix of the Mediterranean Meta Ethnicity generally all Mediterranean countries will have a mix of these 4 components.

 

[Leandros]

My personal opinion, I don't believe that their is different races, after all we are all human beings, Mediterranean race is just a label, the most accurate definition would be it is a Meta Ethnicity, it is a fusion of ethnicity and culture, the 4 autosomal components that I named can all be found in the Mediterranean region and it is part of the mix of the Mediterranean Meta Ethnicity generally all Mediterranean countries will have a mix of these 4 components.

Dogs, wolves and foxes are all canine beings, but that doesnt deny the different canine races and breeds.

Races exist. Saying otherwise, you deny human biodiversity.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Dogs, wolves and foxes are all canine beings, but that doesnt deny the different canine races and breeds.

Races exist. Saying otherwise, you deny human biodiversity.

I don't think Azzurro and others are arguing human diversity doesn't exists. I think they're arguing human biodiversity is so complicated it can't be explained by a racial categories like white, black, and Asian. I dis agree with them because actually human genetic diversity can be explained really well by a handful of racial categories. And most of them carry racial-defining features like a certain skin color or facial feature. Anyone with eye balls can see Japanese and Eskimos look the same and that Russians and Portuguese look the same and so on.

 

[Salento]

In the United States many Government's Forms asks what race/ethnic group you belong to. Multiple choice questionnaires. I was surprised the first time I filled up a Form. I actually asked the Officer what multiple choice to mark, and after explaining my background told me to check Caucasian.
I think is weird.
For the USA Government races are very, very Real.

 

[Leandros]

I don't think Azzurro and others are arguing human diversity doesn't exists. I think they're arguing human biodiversity is so complicated it can't be explained by a racial categories like white, black, and Asian. I dis agree with them because actually human genetic diversity can be explained really well by a handful of racial categories. And most of them carry racial-defining features like a certain skin color or facial feature. Anyone with eye balls can see Japanese and Eskimos look the same and that Russians and Portuguese look the same and so on.

Problem with science is it was always used according to the dogma of the time.
Look at Dr. Watson, how they witch hunted him, for pointing out some OBSERVABLE facts.

Colorblind race deniers are ultimately an enemy of observable science.

 

[Fire Haired14]

For the USA Government races are very, very Real.

Yes, most Americans do believe race exists. And those who don't believe in race believe race is a social category and a cultural category and even a social class. So, race is even important to them and they believe it should still be a census question.

 

[IronSide]

Yes, most Americans do believe race exists. And those who don't believe in race believe race is a social category and a cultural category and even a social class. So, race is even important to them and they believe it should still be a census question.

Do Middle Easterners have a separate category in the census? or are they classified under "White"?

So Germans, Irish, Lebanese, and Egyptians are White, but apparently, Spaniard isn't.

 

[Azzurro]

Dogs, wolves and foxes are all canine beings, but that doesnt deny the different canine races and breeds.

Races exist. Saying otherwise, you deny human biodiversity.

I am not denying Human Biodiversity, it does exist, but its too simplistic to say Black, White and Asian (thanks Fire Haired). It would be easier to have meta ethnicity identities than these Old World classifications which were done with racist intentions, and sadly this seems to be focused to much.