metrics, old anthropology and haplogroups: 'dinarics' Y-I2a and history

[MOESAN]

You seem to have much knowledge. I'm an amateur, but I conclude from your writing that there is no clear corellation between dinaroid look and one haplogroup. But this topic is too interesting to be ignored
I agree, that mountainous areas are important (Dinaric mountains, alps, carpathians, caucasus). You seem to favour HG G and I2. Thats possible but I have the gut feeling that J2 (goat herding in the mountains) and even some R1b is more important. Assuming that dinaroid look originates from south-eastern rather than north-western direction, HG compositions in SE should be considered as more reliable correlators with dinaroid look than remote places due to lower selection bias. The caucasus is famous for its genetic and anthropologic diversity like a mosaic. It was rather source rather than target of migration. So lets look at armenians who are mainly J2+R1b and look very dinaroid. Georgians look much less so and have much less R1b and more G (I'm not sure here). Dinaric correlates well with I2a2 in eastern europe, but not elsewhere. Maybe the original HG I man have not looked dinaroid, yet HG I might have accidentally become an attached genetic trait in SE-Europe by interbreeding or genetic drift (perhaps Cucuteni-Tripolye?). To summarize my point: the present haplogroups in the Caucasus or Anatolia might be more reliable explanations for dinaroid look than those in present europe. It might be worth to investigate some R1b clades. Unfortunately I've not much knowledge, especially not about R1b.
Since I'm a follower of Maciamo's IE-steppe-theory as opposed to paleolithic continuity I wonder: Could it be that R1b is responsible for brachycephalization in Denmark, South-Scandinavia, Germany and Britain such that "Borrebys" and "Brünns" are not paleolithic remnants but rather the result of very slight dinaroid admixtrure?

I'm an amateur like you.
What I favour now is the Y-I2a1b (I2a2) link and maybe Y-I2a2 (I2b) to 'dinaric' phenotype – Y-G was a second choice but I hesitate a lot : G seams linked to the diffusion of Cardial and LBK (for LBK it's not evident every time, wait and see) and in the previous settlements of Cardial in France it don't seam there had been a noticeable brachycephalic component -
'dinaroid' is linked with old 'armenoid' and 'taurid' concept – someones said there was no more of a kind of “forged” type in Armenia since they abandoned the cradle system with crania deformation by that flattened the occipital. Half truth – in fact the 'dinaroid' strain in these mountainous regions is not as strong as in the Dinaric Alps, even if we can find today some dinaroid-like features among a lot of people in Caucasus, Armenia, Turkey, Kurdistan, and Some Syrians highland regions and Lebanese – some of the Tadjiks also.
For Turks, Armenians and some people of Albania, the cradle deformations was responsible of a lot of 'planocciptal bracycephals' – but some true dinaroids exist yet today in these countries (In Western Europe, there is no cranial deformation and true planocciptal people exist too!) - I add that in the populations practising craddle deformations, some of the children reminded dolichocephalic.
Dinaroid type birthdate and evolution is not very well known today yet – but it seams that the planoccipital trait (and brachycephaly) could be a dominant one, and could be find in mixed populations, and with intermediary forms (not always the same occipital angle) with different faces. Even if the crane is not 100% typical dinaroid it will be classified as 'dinaroid' if it presents the occipital flattening... on dolichocephalic cranes metric anthropology scholars was more demanding... So the proportion of 'dinaroid' accretion can be widely interpreted. The 'dinaroids' of the Chalcolithic/Bronze Western Europe did not show so high crania and so narrow faces thant the Near-Eastern-Caucasus 'dinaroids' of the 1930's. It supports the crania deformation thesis, the crane tending to grow higher vertically and smaller on all the others directions when compressed -

First 'Dinaroid' appeared (scholars say, not me) in Syria, Palestina only about the Chalcolithic times.

They seam to descend from Caucasus-Anatolia. Some 'alpinoids' or 'alpines' appeared about the same time in Anatolia.Ancient Egyptians depicted the Hittites in a very different way compared to Assyrians that seamed a mix of 'dinaroids' and 'indo-afghans' (>> or more precisely 'eurafrican' types) – they gave the Hittites 'alpinoid' features on the way to the 'georgian' thick variant (found too among some Armenians) KHERUMIAN prefered seeing the 'dinaroids' come down the Balkans. All that to say I see the moderate bracycephalic people of these regions as an old crossing of 'alpinoids' and 'dinaroid' types (the 2 heavy in the crossing) with various dolichocéphalic types encompassing small 'danubian mediterraneans', 'eurafricans' (with remnants of Brünn-Combe-Capelle features), other variant of small 'mediterraneans' not too far from western 'mediterraneans', and some 'nordic' according to the places: all these dolichocephalic types put one together don't overcome the brachycephalic mixture – The true 'dinaroid' weight would not exceed some 20%, but varying depending on the place . It would be interesting to study the weight of Y-I in these regions where I believe there was languages shifts for some small tribes and Y-DNA derive too. To say that there, it would be difficult to can link an Y-HG to a global phenotype.

As you I was wondering if Y-J2 could not be linked to a sort of 'dinaroid' tendance, when settled after a long time in North Highlands (scholars believe that brachycephaly could be linked to the life in altitude far from the sea, in a complicated and not simple mechanical way). The same with Y-G2 even if it seams to be wrong.

A french Scholars believed that 'dinaroid' types was evolved on a 'brünnoid' type in highlands not too far from sea, and 'alpinoids' in highlands far from sea... I agree timidly for that, but not when he said this process can reverse so easily as it took place! And I have in mind that G and IJK was “sons” of Y-F and that they could have shared some genetic close heritage (some of their descendants, the ones stayed in the same regions , even if not all of them) – I believe Y-I2a1a-M86 (South-Western Europe) and Y-I1 (North Europe) have developped big differences compared to Y-I2a1b and Y-2a2 (I2b) stayed between (maybe) Bohem and Anatolia... I believe that the process of dinaricization is a bracycephalization of a kind of paleolithic dolichocephal closer to the brutal C-Capelle/Brünn types than to the Cro-Magnon type I link better to 'alpinoids' and 'borreby's' – just a bet!

You think that Y-I2 is from N-W Europe, I not!!! Y-I2 is from Central Europe for I think, and was separated in 3 branches yet during the LGM or just after it – I2a is from Central-South-Eastern Europe (I see very well the Carpathes) - the great age of Y-I2 in Britain has no signification for me: they could have stayed a long time in Bohem before moving West (with B.Beakers) – the high percentages of Y-I2b in Germany can be due to derive (and I keep in mind that the Harz region was a metallic one: B.Beakers yet). Even in far Russia you find Y-I2b, and in Moldaves and Gagauzes and every time I2a12. So, S-E Europe: Y-I2a1b + Y-I2a2 (I2b) ++ 'dinaroids'

sure the mtDNA an Y-DNA aren't linked to strictly to autosomals (>> phenotypes ) but the statistical links can be of some importance in big populations – In Caucasus, the old link could have been erased completely by derive, I agree -

Maciamo could give us some up-to-date data on Y-I in detailed little populations of Caucasus and Near-Eastern – Iran... it could help.

Thank and don't forget drink a glass of something to put all that down.

 

[MOESAN]

just adding something:
the cradle deformations could show a kind of snobism of a population trying to mimic what has been the phenotype of an ancient elit of 'dinaroid' aspect - like the bleaking of hairs to imitate a blond aristocraty (Gauls) -who knows?

 

[ElHorsto]

I'm an amateur like you.
What I favour now is the Y-I2a1b (I2a2) link and maybe Y-I2a2 (I2b) to 'dinaric' phenotype – Y-G was a second choice but I hesitate a lot : G seams linked to the diffusion of Cardial and LBK (for LBK it's not evident every time, wait and see) and in the previous settlements of Cardial in France it don't seam there had been a noticeable brachycephalic component -
'dinaroid' is linked with old 'armenoid' and 'taurid' concept – someones said there was no more of a kind of “forged” type in Armenia since they abandoned the cradle system with crania deformation by that flattened the occipital. Half truth – in fact the 'dinaroid' strain in these mountainous regions is not as strong as in the Dinaric Alps, even if we can find today some dinaroid-like features among a lot of people in Caucasus, Armenia, Turkey, Kurdistan, and Some Syrians highland regions and Lebanese – some of the Tadjiks also.
For Turks, Armenians and some people of Albania, the cradle deformations was responsible of a lot of 'planocciptal bracycephals' – but some true dinaroids exist yet today in these countries (In Western Europe, there is no cranial deformation and true planocciptal people exist too!) - I add that in the populations practising craddle deformations, some of the children reminded dolichocephalic.
Dinaroid type birthdate and evolution is not very well known today yet – but it seams that the planoccipital trait (and brachycephaly) could be a dominant one, and could be find in mixed populations, and with intermediary forms (not always the same occipital angle) with different faces. Even if the crane is not 100% typical dinaroid it will be classified as 'dinaroid' if it presents the occipital flattening... on dolichocephalic cranes metric anthropology scholars was more demanding... So the proportion of 'dinaroid' accretion can be widely interpreted. The 'dinaroids' of the Chalcolithic/Bronze Western Europe did not show so high crania and so narrow faces thant the Near-Eastern-Caucasus 'dinaroids' of the 1930's. It supports the crania deformation thesis, the crane tending to grow higher vertically and smaller on all the others directions when compressed -

First 'Dinaroid' appeared (scholars say, not me) in Syria, Palestina only about the Chalcolithic times.

They seam to descend from Caucasus-Anatolia. Some 'alpinoids' or 'alpines' appeared about the same time in Anatolia.Ancient Egyptians depicted the Hittites in a very different way compared to Assyrians that seamed a mix of 'dinaroids' and 'indo-afghans' (>> or more precisely 'eurafrican' types) – they gave the Hittites 'alpinoid' features on the way to the 'georgian' thick variant (found too among some Armenians) KHERUMIAN prefered seeing the 'dinaroids' come down the Balkans. All that to say I see the moderate bracycephalic people of these regions as an old crossing of 'alpinoids' and 'dinaroid' types (the 2 heavy in the crossing) with various dolichocéphalic types encompassing small 'danubian mediterraneans', 'eurafricans' (with remnants of Brünn-Combe-Capelle features), other variant of small 'mediterraneans' not too far from western 'mediterraneans', and some 'nordic' according to the places: all these dolichocephalic types put one together don't overcome the brachycephalic mixture – The true 'dinaroid' weight would not exceed some 20%, but varying depending on the place . It would be interesting to study the weight of Y-I in these regions where I believe there was languages shifts for some small tribes and Y-DNA derive too. To say that there, it would be difficult to can link an Y-HG to a global phenotype.

As you I was wondering if Y-J2 could not be linked to a sort of 'dinaroid' tendance, when settled after a long time in North Highlands (scholars believe that brachycephaly could be linked to the life in altitude far from the sea, in a complicated and not simple mechanical way). The same with Y-G2 even if it seams to be wrong.

A french Scholars believed that 'dinaroid' types was evolved on a 'brünnoid' type in highlands not too far from sea, and 'alpinoids' in highlands far from sea... I agree timidly for that, but not when he said this process can reverse so easily as it took place! And I have in mind that G and IJK was “sons” of Y-F and that they could have shared some genetic close heritage (some of their descendants, the ones stayed in the same regions , even if not all of them) – I believe Y-I2a1a-M86 (South-Western Europe) and Y-I1 (North Europe) have developped big differences compared to Y-I2a1b and Y-2a2 (I2b) stayed between (maybe) Bohem and Anatolia... I believe that the process of dinaricization is a bracycephalization of a kind of paleolithic dolichocephal closer to the brutal C-Capelle/Brünn types than to the Cro-Magnon type I link better to 'alpinoids' and 'borreby's' – just a bet!

You think that Y-I2 is from N-W Europe, I not!!! Y-I2 is from Central Europe for I think, and was separated in 3 branches yet during the LGM or just after it – I2a is from Central-South-Eastern Europe (I see very well the Carpathes) - the great age of Y-I2 in Britain has no signification for me: they could have stayed a long time in Bohem before moving West (with B.Beakers) – the high percentages of Y-I2b in Germany can be due to derive (and I keep in mind that the Harz region was a metallic one: B.Beakers yet). Even in far Russia you find Y-I2b, and in Moldaves and Gagauzes and every time I2a12. So, S-E Europe: Y-I2a1b + Y-I2a2 (I2b) ++ 'dinaroids'

sure the mtDNA an Y-DNA aren't linked to strictly to autosomals (>> phenotypes ) but the statistical links can be of some importance in big populations – In Caucasus, the old link could have been erased completely by derive, I agree -

Maciamo could give us some up-to-date data on Y-I in detailed little populations of Caucasus and Near-Eastern – Iran... it could help.

Thank and don't forget drink a glass of something to put all that down.

I did not claim that Y-I2 is from N-W Europe. Exactly like you I assume it was somewhere in central europe.
I repeat: Armenia is overwhelmingly R1b+J and very dinarid (different dinaroid varians exist), but Georgia is much less dinarid and has also much less R1b+J but much more G. Does it make sense to you then that R1b is more related to dinaroid than G?

I also agree with you that Y-I2a1b+ Y-I2a2(I2b) correlates very well with dinaroids. But I doubt this correlation to be significant in western europe, hence I assume that these Y-I2a HGs adopted dinarcism somewhat later from other HG like J. For W-Europe as I said I assume J2+R1b to be more important. I cannot comment your detailed description of France though due to lack of knowledge.

BTW It is interesting that you mention a Dinarid-Borreby relation for France, because there is a similar one in the balkans: According to Coon - we should not take him too much seriously - the only Borreby stronghold outside northern europe is Montenegro, which is situated inmidst of the nost dinaric peoples. In my opinion not only Montenegrins but many Serbs and fewer Albanians are obvious borrebies too.

This and ancient Romans are one of the reasons why I suspect a correlation with NW-R1b, NW-Borreby - Dinarid, such that some Borrebies and Brünns would be fake-Paleolithic NW-Europeans. I would like to know to which extent those paleolithic Cro-Magnons actually survived and moved back from refuge areas to north really. In turn, could it be that NW-Europe was mostly re-populated later by eurasian/anatolian (Indo-)Europeans? I know this theory is unorthodox and it would require that Paleolithic-looking humans should have been re-introduced. But what if those are just "new" Cro-Magnons from Eurasia or mixed Dinaroids, unrelated to the old Cro-Magnons of West Europe. What do you think?

I'm not expecting an answer for all of these many questions. I just want to describe theory, which is still a set of questions.

 

[MOESAN]

...
BTW It is interesting that you mention a Dinarid-Borreby relation for France, because there is a similar one in the balkans: According to Coon - we should not take him too much seriously - the only Borreby stronghold outside northern europe is Montenegro, which is situated inmidst of the nost dinaric peoples. In my opinion not only Montenegrins but many Serbs and fewer Albanians are obvious borrebies too.
This and ancient Romans are one of the reasons why I suspect a correlation with NW-R1b, NW-Borreby - Dinarid, such that some Borrebies and Brünns would be fake-Paleolithic NW-Europeans. I would like to know to which extent those paleolithic Cro-Magnons actually survived and moved back from refuge areas to north really. In turn, could it be that NW-Europe was mostly re-populated later by eurasian/anatolian (Indo-)Europeans? I know this theory is unorthodox and it would require that Paleolithic-looking humans should have been re-introduced. But what if those are just "new" Cro-Magnons from Eurasia or mixed Dinaroids, unrelated to the old Cro-Magnons of West Europe. What do you think?
I'm not expecting an answer for all of these many questions. I just want to describe theory, which is still a set of questions.

just a partial answer before going further in my response
1- 'dinaroid' features was present in Caucasus and South Caucasus régions - some of the so looking people had undergone cranial deformation so the true 'dinaroid' weight is real but lighter than believed in these populations, lighter thant in Dinaric Alps and some others place of South-Eastern Europe -
2- nevertheless this 'dinaroid' influence could be linked to the presence of some Y-I2a1 ('b' I think) we find just centred on Armenia and Kurdistan that show some 'dinaroid' traits (Eupedia Maciamo: look at the map if it's well based): 10-20% Y-I2 ???
3- KHERUMIAN (Armenian) and some others thinked that the 'dinaroid' people, appeared very late in Anatolia and South Anatolia by the Chalcolithic period, was coming from the Balkans (I was not thinking to, but it strikes me that they could be linked to a kind of Indo-European people (because Georgians had fewer 'dinaroid' traits in them and these times could coincid well enough) - Y-J2 don't seam to me being linked so tightly to 'dianroids'
4- I was not saying 'borreby' is linked to 'dinaroid in Eastern France and Germany, or maybé linked by alliance at a certain stage of History, but that they were crossed one together by intrusion of 'dinaroid' in Western Europe (Chalcolithic yet) - I'll speak quickly later about theories (the old ones I'm aware of) concerning the phylogenese of 'dinaroids' -
I do'nt see the bulk of Western Y-R1b as bearers of 'Combe-Capelle' or 'dinaroid' forms, when speaking of a big population (in small groups, every type of exchanges between Y, mt and automals genes bearers can occur, it's evident)
good evening

 

[sparkey]

nevertheless this 'dinaroid' influence could be linked to the presence of some Y-I2a1 ('b' I think) we find just centred on Armenia and Kurdistan that show some 'dinaroid' traits

I have never seen significant I2a1b-Din pop up in Armenian samples. Only I2c-B and maybe I2a2a-Cont3 break the 1% mark in the Armenians sampled. I have yet to see convincing evidence of I2a-Din in Kurds as well; Kurdish haplogroup I needs more STR tests or deeper SNP tests. We do know that the Zaza Kurds in particular have a lot of haplogroup I, but that could be from a founder effect, and part of any subclade.

IMHO I2a-Din is too young and too Northern in its diversity pattern to correlate well with the spread of Dinaric features, unless you're suggesting that Dinaric features came to the Balkans recently with I2a-Din.

 

[Goga]

Yes I think that I do agree with you. First of all Kurds and Armenians have a different origin & roots, but the other thing is that Kurds have always been 'r*p*ng' Armenians 24/7.

The other thing is that it's possible that Kurds have actually much more R1a & R2 thsn we think like their Iranic relatives in Central Asia but due to a 'founder effect' of hg. I, R1a & R2a distribution in Kurds is somehow concealed.

I believe that Kurds are actually 35%+ R1a and 15%+ R2a and for about 40%+ J*...

 

[Alan]

Yes I think that I do agree with you. First of all Kurds and Armenians have a different origin & roots, but the other thing is that Kurds have always been 'r*p*ng' Armenians 24/7.

The other thing is that it's possible that Kurds have actually much more R1a & R2 thsn we think like their Iranic relatives in Central Asia but due to a 'founder effect' of hg. I, R1a & R2a distribution in Kurds is somehow concealed.

I believe that Kurds are actually 35%+ R1a and 15%+ R2a and for about 40%+ J*...

I believe, no I am sure your not a Kurd to begin with but one of those fanatic Armenians I have met on hyeclub trying to show the world how "barbaric" Kurds are.

wasnt you the one trying so hard to prove that Iranic folks actually come from West Asia and now you want to sell us the Kurds as originally Central Asia? This talk sounds very familiar to me.

Tu ji ku yî. Tu derewanî, navê te û eshîra te ci ye?

 

[Goga]

I believe, no I am sure your not a Kurd to begin with but one of those fanatic Armenians I have met on hyeclub trying to show the world how "barbaric" Kurds are.

wasnt you the one trying so hard to prove that Iranic folks actually come from West Asia and now you want to tell us that the Kurds originally were closer to Central Asian "relatives. This talk sounds very familiar to me.

Tu ji ku yî. Tu derewanî navê te u eshîra te ji ye?

???

No, Kurds ain't no 'barbarians'! Kurds have been always defending themselves against Turks, Persians, Arabs AND Armenians. Kurds do not attack other folks without any reason, if they attack somebody be sure it is because other folks started a vendetta against the Kurds. Never forget that Kurds are very proud & peaceful folks! Kurds don't have any ambitions to conquer other lands, all we want is peace and be free in our own homeland.

Armenians have always been hostile against Kurds!

Original 'Iranic' folks are from Kurdistan. And later they migrated into Central Asia before they invaded India (Indus Valley). This is what I've always been telling you! Kurds are NOT from Central Asia!

 

[Alan]

???

No, Kurds ain't no 'barbarians'! Kurds have been always defending themselves against Turks, Persians, Arabs AND Armenians.

Original Iranic (Aryan) folks are from Kurdistan. And later they migrated into Central Asia, before they invaded India (Indus valley). This is what I've always been telling you!

nonsense your are changing your mind day by day. Do you find it honorable to rape other people and according to you we "raped" them by defending ourselves. Exactly the talk of an Armenian fanatic I know who claimed we raped them and call it self defense.

And could you please answer my question.

Tu ji ku yî. Tu derewanî, navê te û eshîra te ci ye?

 

[Goga]

nonsense your are changing your mind day by day. Do you find it honorable to rape other people and according to you we "raped" them by defending ourselves. Exactly the talk of an Armenian fanatic I know who claimed we raped them and call it self defense.

And could you please answer my question.

I'm not going to play games with you!

Are you denying that we Kurds killed, massacred and raped many Armenians? Are you denying that Armenians were always weaker than Kurds? Is this not a well known fact???

Armenians still think that Kurdistan is Armenia. As long as they're hostile toward me, be it an Armenian, a Persian, an Arab or a Turk, I (Kurds) will always defend myself and my own country!

 

[Alan]

I'm not going to play games with you!

Are you denying that we Kurds killed, massacred and raped many Armenians. Are you denying that Armenians were always weaker than Kurds? Is this not a well known fact???

Armenians still think that Kurdistan is Armenia. As long as they're hostile toward me, be it an Armenian, a Persian, an Arab or a Turk, I (Kurds) will always defend myself and my own country!

playing Games? You still think I am not aware that you are an Armenian. Even All the other Kurds were aware of this when you first joined another Kurdish Forum. I have books and sources which show mass killings of Kurds through the Hands of Armenians and Russians who some of them even called themselves the "Kurdslayers". Stop talking in the name of Kurds. You are obviously even ignoring my Questions and its clear why.

 

[Goga]

Do never forget that a lot Assyrians, Arabs, Turkmen, Persians and even Armenians DO speak Kurdish. I met a lot of those folks from Kirkuk and other Kurdish cities from S. Kurdistan!

So, I don't know who you are but you're definitely not a Kurd.

And I'm 100% sure that the moderator on that Kurdish forum is a Turk/Persian btw. But tell him that I will come back after my ban there!

 

[Alan]

Do never forget that a lot Assyrians, Arabs, Turkmen, Persians and even Armenians DO speak Kurdish. I met a lot of those folks from Kirkuk and other Kurdish cities from S. Kurdistan!

yes just you an alleged yezidi Kurd cant while all yezidis i have met were fluent in kurdish cause their religious traditions are in kurdish.

And I'm 100% sure that the moderator on that Kurdish forum is a Turk/Persian btw. But tell him that I will come back after my ban there!

with this behave you will not be welcomed again. And you can than tell us why you did introduced yourself first as an Syrian than Anatolian and in third plays as a Georgian Kurd.

 

[Goga]

LOL,

I was born in Georgia, my parents were born in Georgia and even my grandparents and their parents were born in the Russian Empire.

But my mothers great gradparents are from Wan/Kars region, where the Median kingdom was located. My dads great grandfather is from Shangal/Qamishli-Lalish region, where the Mitanni kingdom was located!

 

[ElHorsto]

just a partial answer before going further in my response
1- 'dinaroid' features was present in Caucasus and South Caucasus régions - some of the so looking people had undergone cranial deformation so the true 'dinaroid' weight is real but lighter than believed in these populations, lighter thant in Dinaric Alps and some others place of South-Eastern Europe -

I think the variance of "dinaroids" is more of importance than the percentage. I'm applying the same rule of predicting Y-HG sources of origin here.

2- nevertheless this 'dinaroid' influence could be linked to the presence of some Y-I2a1 ('b' I think) we find just centred on Armenia and Kurdistan that show some 'dinaroid' traits (Eupedia Maciamo: look at the map if it's well based): 10-20% Y-I2 ???

Maybe. But I still prefer to assume Y-I2 to be a late adopter of J2-dinarids.

3- KHERUMIAN (Armenian) and some others thinked that the 'dinaroid' people, appeared very late in Anatolia and South Anatolia by the Chalcolithic period, was coming from the Balkans (I was not thinking to, but it strikes me that they could be linked to a kind of Indo-European people (because Georgians had fewer 'dinaroid' traits in them and these times could coincid well enough) - Y-J2 don't seam to me being linked so tightly to 'dianroids'

In my theory, the dinarids were not coming from balkans to caucasus, but rather vice versa, such that Y-I2 adopted dinarids later. I think a certain phenotype can be as well subject to founder effects and genetic drift like it is the case for Y-HGs. So even though dinarids are less common in caucasus than in balkans, I assume a higher diversity of phenotypes in caucasus, even if less in frequency. The balcanic dinarids with Y-I2 would be a result of founder effect. I learnt in this forum that most I-HGs bottlenecked strongly. Or take lactose tolerance mutation for instance. Highest rate is in sweden, although this mutation was found to originate somewhere north-east of the black sea.

4- I was not saying 'borreby' is linked to 'dinaroid in Eastern France and Germany, or maybé linked by alliance at a certain stage of History, but that they were crossed one together by intrusion of 'dinaroid' in Western Europe (Chalcolithic yet) - I'll speak quickly later about theories (the old ones I'm aware of) concerning the phylogenese of 'dinaroids' -

Ok, thats interesting.

I do'nt see the bulk of Western Y-R1b as bearers of 'Combe-Capelle' or 'dinaroid' forms, when speaking of a big population (in small groups, every type of exchanges between Y, mt and automals genes bearers can occur, it's evident)
good evening

Did those old scholars really postulate that "Dinarid" is a variant of "Compe-Capelle"?
For me that was not clear. I rather tended to connect Cro-Mag to Dinarid, if any.
Anyway, I'm absolutely not stating that the bulk of western R1b was Dinaroid. I just think that a tiny fraction of R1b and J2 carried dinarids to W-Europe. There are so many different R1b variants. Same with J2. I don't believe we will find a better correlating major HG for "dinarid", except certain subclades of the two mentioned.

 

[MOESAN]

I have never seen significant I2a1b-Din pop up in Armenian samples. Only I2c-B and maybe I2a2a-Cont3 break the 1% mark in the Armenians sampled. I have yet to see convincing evidence of I2a-Din in Kurds as well; Kurdish haplogroup I needs more STR tests or deeper SNP tests. We do know that the Zaza Kurds in particular have a lot of haplogroup I, but that could be from a founder effect, and part of any subclade.

IMHO I2a-Din is too young and too Northern in its diversity pattern to correlate well with the spread of Dinaric features, unless you're suggesting that Dinaric features came to the Balkans recently with I2a-Din.

Thanks for the precisions about Y-I in Armenia and Kudistan (by the way I red Kurdish tribes was not so homogene between them depending of regions, Armenia no more) - But what are the number samples for these two ethnies?
for Y-I2 I was looking at the Maciamo's map.

For the dating (age) of mutations I'm not to confident in details in the calculations what ever the result, old or recent - BUT even that took in account a bunch of phenotypic features can take force in a small long time ISOLATED population (highlands? I don't bet the place here) of let's say an Y-I2(a?) upstream version and be amplified or kept in the more numerous mutated downstream Y-I2a1a population, its "son" or "daughter": an evolution on place of the Y-DNA (or mt DNA) and the date of last mutation on it don't change the composition of a previous package of other genes (autosomals and other biallelic giving phenotypes) :asa whole for I believe, long ago geographically separated SNP's can take very different phenotypes but SNP's evolved on place can keep the old phenotypes or evolve but one together...

 

[MOESAN]

nonsense your are changing your mind day by day. Do you find it honorable to rape other people and according to you we "raped" them by defending ourselves. Exactly the talk of an Armenian fanatic I know who claimed we raped them and call it self defense.

And could you please answer my question.

what are you doing on my thread: are you looking for boxing competition -
genetics or every descriptive science or lobby is not a war field -
keep quiet and drink fresh!
if you want to create another thread you can, if you are authorized by the moderators

 

[sparkey]

Thanks for the precisions about Y-I in Armenia and Kudistan (by the way I red Kurdish tribes was not so homogene between them depending of regions, Armenia no more) - But what are the number samples for these two ethnies?
for Y-I2 I was looking at the Maciamo's map.

For both ethnicities it's in the hundreds, but we don't have the kind of precision in studies of Kurds that we have in studies of Armenians. For Armenians, we're fairly confident that they are ~3% I2c-B and ~1% I2a2-Cont3, while with Kurds, we're just pretty sure that they have a good deal of I, but don't have subclades because it only comes from studies that don't go beyond "I" (Nasidze et al in particular, also informed by Nebel et al which is even lower resolution). Maciamo's map assumes that Nasidze et al took a representative sample and that the I there is mainly I2a, which may not be a good assumption. He explains that here. Right now we only have one high-resolution Kurdish I sample in any database or study I've seen, and that individual was I1 from Jordan, possibly a Crusades leftover that doesn't tell us much.

For the dating (age) of mutations I'm not to confident in details in the calculations what ever the result, old or recent - BUT even that took in account a bunch of phenotypic features can take force in a small long time ISOLATED population (highlands? I don't bet the place here) of let's say an Y-I2(a?) upstream version and be amplified or kept in the more numerous mutated downstream Y-I2a1a population, its "son" or "daughter": an evolution on place of the Y-DNA (or mt DNA) and the date of last mutation on it don't change the composition of a previous package of other genes (autosomals and other biallelic giving phenotypes) :asa whole for I believe, long ago geographically separated SNP's can take very different phenotypes but SNP's evolved on place can keep the old phenotypes or evolve but one together...

The question is really how tightly autosomal DNA that influences phenotype correlates to Y-DNA haplogroups. Often, that correlation seems to be poor. I suspect that the "Dinaric" phenotypes predate I2a-Din in the Balkans but could be wrong.

 

[Alan]

we got 14 tested individuals. so far 3 of them came out as I*. one Iraqi from harrapa project with I2a1. Second from 23andme with I2c and the last from FTDNA with I1.

 

[sparkey]

we got 14 tested individuals. so far 3 of them came out as I*. one Iraqi from harrapa project with I2a1. Second from 23andme with I2c and the last from FTDNA with I1.

This is great info, Alan, the best anyone has been able to give me yet. I looked at the Harappa Project, though, and it looks like there is no I2a1 Kurd, but there is an "I2b1*"... surely a current ISOGG I2a2a, although that's a diverse subclade and I wish I knew the STRs. My first guess would be I2a2a-Cont3.

That interestingly indicates that Kurds don't really have significant I2a-Din, but instead a similar mix to Armenians. But the sample size is obviously too small to say that for sure.