Fire-Haired:You're being too scientific. The sources of differnt types of ancestry in modern Italians doesn't have to trace back to historically known migrations to Italy. I'm not referring to Gauls or Greeks of history, I'm referring to unknown Pre-Historic people who arrived before there was any writing in Italy, and are hard to track in archaeology. If people like modern Greeks are the source of a Near Eastern shift in Italy, then most Italians would have to be like 80% Greek. If people in former Gaulish territory are the source of the Steppe ancestry, Central/North Italians would have to be 40-50% Gaulish. The Steppe ancestry especially isn't just a minor topping, it's very significant.
We should strive to be less scientific? Really?
If you want to engage in these kinds of discussions with people, you have to stop claiming people are saying things they didn't say, stop drawing illogical conclusions from facts that are not even in evidence, and stop jumbling a bunch of half-truths together and claiming it is
the answer.
Where did I ever say that steppe ancestry isn't significant in southern Europeans?
How on earth can you know that a
mystery, unknown population is the source of any particular component in Italians (or anyone else for that matter) when you haven't yet tested any of the
known groups like the Etruscans, or the immigrants who might have arrived from Crete in the Bronze Age, or the Greeks of the first millennium, who might, for all you know, have been very Cypriot like before the arrival of the Goths or the Slavic migrations in the Balkans. Or, going back before 3000 BC, when you haven't yet tested anyone who might have been part of a second wave of the Neolithic for that matter, or when we don't know whether copper workers who fled the collapse of the Balkan complex migrated to Italy. For someone who knows anything about the pre-history of Europe those are
KNOWN populations, not mystery populations, whatever that even means.
Also, for your information, Northern Italians and Tuscans can indeed be modeled as 40=50% and more Gaulish. So you're wrong about that as well.
Those are the finer details. With the methods I'm using, all you can do is know the large genetic groupings new people who arrived after 3000 BC were apart of. It's impossible to figure out ethnic or regional origins.
Do you even bother to really read people's posts? To repeat what I said above, how can you know the timing of the incursion of these components in Italians, as just one example, based on Oetzi, for goodness sakes? You don't have a clue as to the genetic signature of any ancient Italians other than Oetzi and a few Remedello genomes from far northern Italy. Depending on which group was present at which time in which place with a particular genetic signature, all the succeeding percentages change in terms of timing. Even for Northern Italians, while one could perhaps speculate that the group that admixed with the steppe groups was Remedello like, how do we know that the populations closer to Rome and southern Tuscany were the same, much less the far south?
They might have been, perhaps it's even probable that they were the same, but that isn't the point.
The point is that you can't know, and yet you pretend that you do
. How do you know there wasn't a change around the time of the Copper Age, instead of after the Bronze Age as you claim? If you were more informed, and a bit older maybe you'd understand that this isn't how scientists work and think, or historians, or any well educated and well-informed people for that matter. I'm telling you this for your own good; this is not going to fly when you're in real life, professional situations.
http://rbedrosian.com/Ref/Drews/Drews_1988_Coming_of_Greeks.pdf
Do we know anything about the history of people in Spain before 0 AD Some, but probably not a lot. Why is it easier to believe Spanish are 25-30% from Yamnaya-like, than they are 10-25% Cypriot-like? Both could have arrived in large numbers but were left unrecorded in history.
Is that a serious question? We've known for more than a hundred years through archaeology and linguistic studies of the movement of this group of people across Europe.
I am too confident sometimes
Indeed. Maybe if you go back over the last year or two and see how confident and dogmatic you were about numerous issues, only to be proven wrong, it would give you pause.
