Modern populations and neolithic farmers?

[Aberdeen]

But was the East Asian farmer aspect the whole story prior to the Mongol expansion? If we look at the Y haplotypes among the Han Chinese, the presence of C, N and R1a might be explained solely by the 13th century Mongol expansion, but do we know that for sure? And Yong-Bin Zhao et al suggested that Q1a1 admixed into the Han Chinese about 3000 years ago. Dienekes mentioned that in his blog on August 21, 2014. And how do we explain the presence of Y haplotype J in China. It's possible that bronze may have entered China from the west, possibly associated with the Seima-Turbino Phenomenon.

 

[arvistro]

The funny thing. People questioning this want to be the least Near Eastern most WHG admixed but at the same time "lightest" of all, not knowing or ignoring the basic fact that genes for light skin were brought to Europe by farmers.

I guess this is because these genes were most successful in WHG rich populations. It is needed for agricultural societies (low D vitamin) where there is not enough sun (difficult D vitamin without light skin), which in modern days happen to be the WHG peak land. If you chart WHG admixture and then light eyes, hair, skin, it surely looks like WHG folk "kidnapped" that EEF gene

So, am I correct? It was brought by EEFs. It was not selected as much in more Southern territories (more EEF adm in general), but got selected favorably in North (more WHG adm in general), creating this same modern paradox.

This article tells about why it is North Europe that is depigmented, Golf current is to be blamed for ensuring agriculture so far in North:
https://backintyme.wordpress.com/article/why-are-europeans-white-e1-k16kl3c2f2au-14/

 

[Angela]

I think it's probably a bit more complicated than that. The mutations that are associated with depigmentation (one study does seem to show actual causation) in modern Europeans might have arisen numerous times in human history. They, like other mutations, expand or "sweep" in populations, when they are highly beneficial. Studies done on SLC24A5, a major skin lightening gene, show that it seems to radiate out of the Caucasus in all directions. A few cases of SLC42A5 showed up in far northeastern Europe, but it may have appeared in other places as well.

So far, the scientific papers seem to be in agreement that the sweep of these genes to virtual fixation in modern Europeans may be tied to the effects of agriculture in Vitamin D poor climates. I have a hunch it may also be related to the consumption of milk products.

We also know that the studies of ancient Dna using the modern predictors developed for law enforcement show that Stuttgart was "fairer" than Loschbour and LaBrana. Otzi was probably "fairer" than all of them, because he had two copies of both the major skin depigmentation genes. The Neolithic farmers in Gamba et al were fairer than the presumably "Mesolithic" farmer, and this is also the culture (100% EEF genetically) where the oldest light haired, light eyed and fair skinned sample has been found.

So, it seems to me that the scientists may indeed be on to something.

It should be remembered however, that it's possible that Mesolithic Europeans had some totally unknown skin lightening snps, and the new groups introduced a totally new set. However, I think that's highly unlikely given the extreme rapidity in evolutionary terms with which these snps spread in more northern populations, relatively speaking. I think the most logical explanation is that these snps must have provided some sort of extreme advantage in certain areas, particularly during the transition to farming perhaps, so it seems unlikely to me that they were "duplicates" so to speak.

Speaking on just a personal level, I find it both ironic and sad that something which especially in the last couple of centuries has been the cause of so much suffering and discord should come down to an adaptation to climate and diet.

Oh, and thanks for the link. Very interesting.

 

[Alan]

So far, the scientific papers seem to be in agreement that the sweep of these genes to virtual fixation in modern Europeans may be tied to the effects of agriculture in Vitamin D poor climates. I have a hunch it may also be related to the consumption of milk products.

Yep thats what also went through my head when the first Blonde Bronze Age individuals to turn out in Europe( Hungary) where during a time when the first Haplogroup J2a* appeared.

The reason why this fascinated me is, because I connect the expansion of proto herders to Haplogroup J* from Zagros mountains. I think the first people to switch from classical farmers to herders were people of Haplogroup J*. Milk products can be the main reason why their was a even more lack of Vitamin D which caused for even lighter features.

I even assume this is how the "West Asian" component turned out to existence. farmers who crossed some ANE folks in mountainous regions and turned to herders. I have seen similar trend in the West Asian highlands and Kurdistan. The typical nomadic Kurdish herder has sligthly sunburned skin but usually lighter hair color, especially the children. The same is even the case among Bedouin herders. I don't know if the same is the case in other parts of the world.


Also werent there some rumors that Ötzi was probably more of a herder too? he probably took this technique over from BR2 like people from Hungary.

Whatever even if herders contributed in additional light features among Europeans or not. I think herders came to Europe with Haplogroup J*, R1a* and R1b*.

 

[John Doe]

I think it's probably a bit more complicated than that. The mutations that are associated with depigmentation (one study does seem to show actual causation) in modern Europeans might have arisen numerous times in human history. They, like other mutations, expand or "sweep" in populations, when they are highly beneficial. Studies done on SLC24A5, a major skin lightening gene, show that it seems to radiate out of the Caucasus in all directions. A few cases of SLC42A5 showed up in far northeastern Europe, but it may have appeared in other places as well.

So far, the scientific papers seem to be in agreement that the sweep of these genes to virtual fixation in modern Europeans may be tied to the effects of agriculture in Vitamin D poor climates. I have a hunch it may also be related to the consumption of milk products.

We also know that the studies of ancient Dna using the modern predictors developed for law enforcement show that Stuttgart was "fairer" than Loschbour and LaBrana. Otzi was probably "fairer" than all of them, because he had two copies of both the major skin depigmentation genes. The Neolithic farmers in Gamba et al were fairer than the presumably "Mesolithic" farmer, and this is also the culture (100% EEF genetically) where the oldest light haired, light eyed and fair skinned sample has been found.

So, it seems to me that the scientists may indeed be on to something.

It should be remembered however, that it's possible that Mesolithic Europeans had some totally unknown skin lightening snps, and the new groups introduced a totally new set. However, I think that's highly unlikely given the extreme rapidity in evolutionary terms with which these snps spread in more northern populations, relatively speaking. I think the most logical explanation is that these snps must have provided some sort of extreme advantage in certain areas, particularly during the transition to farming perhaps, so it seems unlikely to me that they were "duplicates" so to speak.

Speaking on just a personal level, I find it both ironic and sad that something which especially in the last couple of centuries has been the cause of so much suffering and discord should come down to an adaptation to climate and diet.

Oh, and thanks for the link. Very interesting.

This would explain why I can be on one hand fully Ashkenazi Jewish but on the other hand be very fair, those light features were in west Asia all along! And since we don't really know how the Neolithic near eastern or even the iron age near eastern genetic landscape looked like, it's possible it was like that even when proto-Ashkenazis were still there.

 

[John Doe]

Yep thats what also went through my head when the first Blonde Bronze Age individuals to turn out in Europe( Hungary) where during a time when the first Haplogroup J2a* appeared.

The reason why this fascinated me is, because I connect the expansion of proto herders to Haplogroup J* from Zagros mountains. I think the first people to switch from classical farmers to herders were people of Haplogroup J*. Milk products can be the main reason why their was a even more lack of Vitamin D which caused for even lighter features.

I even assume this is how the "West Asian" component turned out to existence. farmers who crossed some ANE folks in mountainous regions and turned to herders. I have seen similar trend in the West Asian highlands and Kurdistan. The typical nomadic Kurdish herder has sligthly sunburned skin but usually lighter hair color, especially the children. The same is even the case among Bedouin herders. I don't know if the same is the case in other parts of the world.


Also werent there some rumors that Ötzi was probably more of a herder too? he probably took this technique over from BR2 like people from Hungary.

Whatever even if herders contributed in additional light features among Europeans or not. I think herders came to Europe with Haplogroup J*, R1a* and R1b*.

Good point.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

But was the East Asian farmer aspect the whole story prior to the Mongol expansion? If we look at the Y haplotypes among the Han Chinese, the presence of C, N and R1a might be explained solely by the 13th century Mongol expansion, but do we know that for sure? And Yong-Bin Zhao et al suggested that Q1a1 admixed into the Han Chinese about 3000 years ago. Dienekes mentioned that in his blog on August 21, 2014. And how do we explain the presence of Y haplotype J in China. It's possible that bronze may have entered China from the west, possibly associated with the Seima-Turbino Phenomenon.

Yes it gets complicated very fast - partly why I'm keen on the first two or three steps being fixed if at all possible i.e. is there a more OOA "Basal" component originally widespread but centered somewhere around the middle-east and an "ASE" component that back migrated from S/SE Asia.