More evidence that the PIE R1b people originated in the Maykop culture

<em>Moesan: Concerning language I have far more questions than answers: <br>
1- 'gedrosian' component in Caucasus seems more linked to East than to West ( not too surprising) but also to turkic speaking populations than to diverse caucasic speaking ones. It seems to me the first turkic or turkized tribes coming from East absorbed a perceptible part of 'gedrosia' (I-E or not) on their way to Anatolia (more through wives) before absorbing 'caucasus', either iranic speaking or dravidic speaking... but this distribution does not suit to anatolian or mesopotamian agricultors nor metallurgists in Balkans or S-E Mediterranea... 'sardinian' and 'caucasian' components suit better to these events - :indifferent::indifferent::indifferent::indifferent::indifferent::indifferent::indifferent::indifferent::indifferent::indifferent::indifferent: Maybe the Ket People can shed some light, the last surviving culture of the Native Americans apparently, according to legend the Kets; Predominately Haplogroup Q lived in the Sayan Mountains, a strait shot North East from where Haplogroup R approximately originated; somewhere in the Eastern Caspian sea as seen in Haplogroups in Eupedia. According to legend the Ket People were invaded by the mountain people and were chased down North to Siberia, ironically Haplogroup N arrived in the Russo-Mongolian area around 14-12,000 ybp around the time the Native Americans arrived in North America.</em> Coincidence? Here are some sources and links. Thanks, trying to figure out if I'm joshing myself. <img title="Grin" class="inlineimg" alt="" src="http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png" border="0" smilieid="491">
 
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Maciamo said:
Dienekes mentions on his blog a recent paper by Konstantine Pitskhelauri on the settlement of the Caucasus by migrants from the Middle East during the Neolithic period.

The paper brings additional evidence regarding the origins of the Early Bronze Age Maykop culture in Mesopotamia, confirming my theory that R1b people from the Middle East migrated across the Caucasus and established the Maykop culture, before expanding throughout the Pontic-Caspian Steppes and mixing with the indigenous R1a steppe people.


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Maciamo,

I like your Maikop theory, however I think it needs some tweeking in light of your own Gedrosian map and some of the question marks that remain about the density of Caucasian haplogroups, and in this case, the origins of Kurgans.

Wouldn't it make more sense if R1b's continuous movement in the Caucasus was up and down the the Caspian Coast on the East side of the Caucasus? (I realize Maikop was on the West side-hold that thought...)
The Caspian is a much better highway than walking through brusing, mud-slide-capital-of-the-world, terrain, especially with its length--much better.
Early R1b peoples seem to have been very capable boatsmen and may have preferred long distance trade in boats. I've also noticed that the Kura River could potentially act almost as a highway between the epicenter of the Maikop and the Caspian Sea enabling the kind of wealth they were able to accumulate in exports. And make no mistake, the Maikop econoomy was an enterprise based on exports, not country living.

I think it better explains the distribution of Gedrosian mixture and R1b clades where there is a clear East/West differentiation in the Caucasus. Perhaps the Maikop was not so much the discrete ancestor of PIE or Western PIE or M-269, but rather an incidental culture formed from a M-269 superstrate interested in mining and trade in the region. Perhaps those networks moved from the ore-rich mountain settlements, down the Kura, and from there North or South depending on destination.

I've already soap boxed on my ideas on the reason R1b people moved where they did, how they got there, etc. so none of that here.
 
Tabaccus Maximus said:
Maciamo,

I like your Maikop theory, however I think it needs some tweeking in light of your own Gedrosian map and some of the question marks that remain about the density of Caucasian haplogroups, and in this case, the origins of Kurgans.

Wouldn't it make more sense if R1b's continuous movement in the Caucasus was up and down the the Caspian Coast on the East side of the Caucasus? (I realize Maikop was on the West side-hold that thought...)
The Caspian is a much better highway than walking through brusing, mud-slide-capital-of-the-world, terrain, especially with its length--much better.
Early R1b peoples seem to have been very capable boatsmen and may have preferred long distance trade in boats. I've also noticed that the Kura River could potentially act almost as a highway between the epicenter of the Maikop and the Caspian Sea enabling the kind of wealth they were able to accumulate in exports. And make no mistake, the Maikop econoomy was an enterprise based on exports, not country living.

I think it better explains the distribution of Gedrosian mixture and R1b clades where there is a clear East/West differentiation in the Caucasus. Perhaps the Maikop was not so much the discrete ancestor of PIE or Western PIE or M-269, but rather an incidental culture formed from a M-269 superstrate interested in mining and trade in the region. Perhaps those networks moved from the ore-rich mountain settlements, down the Kura, and from there North or South depending on destination.

I've already soap boxed on my ideas on the reason R1b people moved where they did, how they got there, etc. so none of that here.
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What is forgotten is that a lot of genetic markers commenced around Uzbekistan, Turkestan etc., the reason is the the Aral Sea in ancient times was the size of half of England, there where rivers connecting the caspian sea to the Aral Sea, all fertile lands.
If you check Ftdna and nat geno to name 2 companies, both have man breaking off from there, most heading north of the caspian sea to europe or rounding the eastern Caspian lands.
maikop seems like a mountainous stop over for man.
 
Sile said:
What is forgotten is that a lot of genetic markers commenced around Uzbekistan, Turkestan etc., the reason is the the Aral Sea in ancient times was the size of half of England, there where rivers connecting the caspian sea to the Aral Sea, all fertile lands.
If you check Ftdna and nat geno to name 2 companies, both have man breaking off from there, most heading north of the caspian sea to europe or rounding the eastern Caspian lands.
maikop seems like a mountainous stop over for man.
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Granted, the expanded Near East is a hard egg to unscramble, however the time period of interest is not that deep and many of those ancient founding haplotypes moved on and matured in other lands.

I would imagine that the area was inhabited by many diverse ancient peoples. The movement of R1b around the Black and Caspian seas may prove one of the easier puzzles to solve given that it probably was not originally native to the region.
The trans-caucasus may seem like a hopeless puzzle, but the resolution will improve with more testing and archaelogical finds...
 
kamani said:
J1, J2, and E1b1b have been in south-west asia at least since the Neolithic, with E1b1b found more in Levant/Anatolia. Old R1b (M269 or older) was also sharing the same area, but I doubt it was ever a majority, at least not in the late Neolithic or Bronze Age. Remember that there has also been back migration of R1b in the Bronze-Age into south-west asia.
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Hold on a moment the let's not forget that the Celts have been reputed for having a decentralized organization and as the map shows that the Hussuna culture is doted with R1B to the north. http://www.icenitea.com/tag/celtic/
 
nordicwarbler said:
Those of you who have followed my ramblings for awhile may remember that I stated it was only a matter of time before R1b would claim Gobekli Tepe.
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Got anything better than a bunch of long forgotten dilapidated buried stones for us to claim? Like gold, silver, copper, tin.
//Signed//
R1b thieving boogey man
 
yeomandroid said:
Got anything better than a bunch of long forgotten dilapidated buried stones for us to claim? Like gold, silver, copper, tin.
//Signed//
R1b thieving boogey man
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I agree yeomandroid, and not because I'm R1b :). Welcome to Eupedia.
 
Hey Maciamo, it appears that not only have you mentioned that R1b has been linked to the Maykop people but also linked to mysterious "first cattle headers in the SE Taurus mountains including in the vicinity of Goklepe Tepe. There are some forum sites that are skeptical of your "R1b= first cattle herder claim"; it's almost like R1b invented civilization. Plus we don't even have a name for this SE Taurus culture.

Do you have any sources saying the Neolithic SE Taurus skeletons can predominately traced back to R1b?

On a site note I'm just curious, I find it interesting that R1b tribes were making a b-line north into the Caucasus during the early neolithic and Neolithic Anatolian; EEF people filled the vacuum. It's almost like either SE Turkey has a grass-less epidemic or some sort of war or by other problems. What convinced The proto-Maykop and Proto-South Yamna people to run to the Caucasus mountains during the Early Neolithic? :)

However, considering the data above if you can prove that the "SE Taurus Cattle Herder = Predominately R1B" Hypothasis as scientifically legit then I suppose I could offer my nick name for this culture; The "Cayonu-Pheonix Culture" for they broke apart heading north to the Caucasus (As depicted in the Early Neolithic map) and blossomed from the ashes as the Maykop and South Yamna cultures. ;)
 
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"...the linguistic evidence from our family does not lead us beyond Gimbutas’ secondary homeland and that the Khvalynsk culture on the middle Volga and the Maykop culture in the northern Caucasus cannot be identified with the Indo-Europeans. Any proposal which goes beyond the Sredny Stog culture must start from the possible affinities of Indo-European with other language families. It is usually recognized that the best candidate in this respect is the Uralic language family, while further connections with the Altaic languages and perhaps even Dravidian are possible... What we do have to take into account is the typological similarity of Proto-Indo-European to the North-West Caucasian (i.e. Adyg) languages. If this similarity can be attributed to areal factors, we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum. It now appears that this view is actually supported by the archaeological evidence. If it is correct, we may locate the earliest (Uralo-Altaic) ancestors of the speakers of Proto-Indo-European north of the Caspian Sea in the seventh millennium."

[F.Kortlandt, Journal of Indo-European Studies, Volume 18, 1990, p.131]
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The case is closed.
 
If we put away all the neolithic package, proto-indo-europeans religion and metaphysic is a fusion with " siberian / shamanic " concepts like the tripartition of the world in sky, axis and underground, all joined by the three of life, also the myth of the hero and the monster ( snake / dragon ) is typically siberian and somehow caucasian / south caucasian package including the Storm God, wich is primarly just a Storm God without a warrior like role. Know, it also obvious that proto-indo-european mythology is very syncretic. All searchers knows that the indo-european expansion proper comes from the steppe, where, we never gotta know, with certainty, but because it is not certain, some people try to challenge that theory with subjective interpretation of genetic data. It is obvious that proto-indo-europeans where not a " Pure Race ", like it just pop like this without reason. Know, the caucasus theory is a great fail for me, for years, balkans and south central asia are better proxy for respectively Herds, Crops, middle eastern like Pottery, Metallurgy and Second Neolithic Revolution package and east asiatic Pottery and Millet. Knowing that, i'm pretty sur that the final syncretism of all this takin place somewhere in south ukraine and south russia. Sredny Stog where R1a hunter gatherer wich was replaced in second phase by R1b people, wich push the native R1a in a north west direction ( corded ware ). The link is those R1b that start to pup between -5000 and -4000.
 
Alpakut said:
"...the linguistic evidence from our family does not lead us beyond Gimbutas’ secondary homeland and that the Khvalynsk culture on the middle Volga and the Maykop culture in the northern Caucasus cannot be identified with the Indo-Europeans. Any proposal which goes beyond the Sredny Stog culture must start from the possible affinities of Indo-European with other language families. It is usually recognized that the best candidate in this respect is the Uralic language family, while further connections with the Altaic languages and perhaps even Dravidian are possible... What we do have to take into account is the typological similarity of Proto-Indo-European to the North-West Caucasian (i.e. Adyg) languages. If this similarity can be attributed to areal factors, we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum. It now appears that this view is actually supported by the archaeological evidence. If it is correct, we may locate the earliest (Uralo-Altaic) ancestors of the speakers of Proto-Indo-European north of the Caspian Sea in the seventh millennium."

[F.Kortlandt, Journal of Indo-European Studies, Volume 18, 1990, p.131]
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The case is closed.
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Its not to you to decide when a case is closed or not. Nether to anybody on that site, wether they think to be right or not.
 
I'm tired of those genetic or admixtures arguments, your CHG could be R1b replaced by J in paleolithic / mesolithic transition, those datas are important, but used by random people juste like they want to interprete it. Remember that Globular Amphora are I2a EEF...
 
Your phylogeny might be a bit off (I'm guessing things like YFull were less accurate/didn't exist back then), but if this is correct this will be the best prediction on all of these online forums? I know Maykop has been linked to Yamnaya for decades, but still - this is 2013 predicting the PIE homeland (if it turns out to be correct in the upcoming Caucasus paper)
 
halfalp said:
If we put away all the neolithic package, proto-indo-europeans religion and metaphysic is a fusion with " siberian / shamanic " concepts like the tripartition of the world in sky, axis and underground, all joined by the three of life, also the myth of the hero and the monster ( snake / dragon ) is typically siberian and somehow caucasian / south caucasian package including the Storm God, wich is primarly just a Storm God without a warrior like role.
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Hold on a minute. I thought that was Georgian mythos. You mean Siberians have the same ?
 
aleph said:
So, PIE originated in south-eastern Ukraine, and having nothing genetically to do with Maykop, right? Would have been cool if they were renegades from an actual civilization like Maykop, but oh well.
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Most of Maciamo's analysis here looks correct to me. R1b-M269 is the original speaker of proto proto IE language. It originated somewhere in current northern Irak. They were herders whom migrated further north into Caucasus and later further north in the steppes (R1b-L23) and in Anatolia (R1b-PF7562).
 
Piro Ilir said:
Most of Maciamo's analysis here looks correct to me. R1b-M269 is the original speaker of proto proto IE language. It originated somewhere in current northern Irak. They were herders whom migrated further north into Caucasus and later further north in the steppes (R1b-L23) and in Anatolia (R1b-PF7562).
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M269 is very old.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
M269 is very old.
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Yes, it is. It's the parent glade of R1b-L23 and PF7562. It is from the Calcolithic. It fits the best with IE linguistic candidate, and kurgans theory of IE tribes either. R1b-M269 moved from northern Iraq into Caucasus, there they founded the Maykop and later split into the so called Yanmaya culture. Yanmaya were overwhelming L23 while Maykop was a mix of many haplos including R1b-PF7562. M269 which remained back became the PF7562 branch, whom later migrated to Anatolia giving rise to Hittites empire.

Nevertheless, there might have been a totally different situaten about Maykop and IE genesis. IE languages may have evolved from a language pool of mixed and different languages. Some kind of language habitat spanning from Caucasus further north into forest steppes. A sort of creole or something. I generally don't believe this theory. I support that Maykop is the parent culture for the Anatolian IE people. Maykop is the earliest bronze age culture, and it fits with genetic of bronze age Anatolians, whom don't have steppe ancestry.
 
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