Immigration Moroccan immigrant shoots and throw grenades at crowd in Liège, Belgium

[Maciamo]

At lunchtime today, a man opened fire with a Kalashnikov (AK-47) and threw three grenades on the crowd at the Christmas market on Liège's Saint-Lambert Square, the main city square, killing at least five people (including one baby girl and two teenagers) and injuring some 70 more.

The author of the mass murder is 33-year old Nordine Amrani, a Muslim of Moroccan origin already well known from the Belgian justice for illegal possession of weapons. The man had just been released in July this year from a 58-month stay in prison. After the killing, the authorities found a huge arsenal of weaponry owned by Amrani stored in a warehouse. It included RPG's (rocket-propelled grenade) and various heavy assault guns.

For once this kind of incident caused by Moroccan immigrants has made the headlines around the world, though it is far from an isolated case. Over one third of all people in jail for violent crimes in Belgium are or Moroccan origin, from rapes and assaults to armed robberies and mass shootings.

In this case, the fact that the man was convicted three years ago and that he amassed such an arsenal in just a few months since his release (or managed to keep it while he was in jail) shows how inefficient the Belgian police is at preventing "second offences" among criminals (or in this case passing from weapon possession to mass murder).

Although Amrani had no "proven" connection to terrorist networks, psychiatrists interviewed on Belgian TV said that may have been inspired by other mass killings in Western countries in the last few years. It should certainly be seen in the perspective of the wider civilisation conflict between the Western and the Muslim worlds.


UPDATE : the number of people injured is now estimated at 125, including 5 in critical condition.

 

[Taranis]

Although Amrani had no "proven" connection to terrorist networks, psychiatrists interviewed on Belgian TV said that may have been inspired by other mass killings in Western countries in the last few years. It should certainly be seen in the perspective of the wider civilisation conflict between the Western and the Muslim worlds.

Maciamo, this is a great tragedy and it should not have come to this, but I do not agree with the bolded part above. The very concept of the 'clash of civilizations' was cooked up by a lone guy who randomly drew up lines across the globe and tried to press the world into these lines in order to give American overseas ambitions a new guideline after the cold war ended. The worst thing that we can do is actually believe what he wrote. Civilization don't clash. People do.

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, this is a great tragedy and it should not have come to this, but I do not agree with the bolded part above. The very concept of the 'clash of civilizations' was cooked up by a lone guy who randomly drew up lines across the globe and tried to press the world into these lines in order to give American overseas ambitions a new guideline after the cold war ended. The worst thing that we can do is actually believe what he wrote. Civilization don't clash. People do.

Civilisations don't exist without the people that constitute them. All the integration problems that Muslim immigrants have in Europe are caused by this difference of civilisation, which is to say a sheer divergence in mindset, values, education, cultural identity, etc. Religion plays a major role all by itself. That is why Arabic immigrants to the US, who are in majority Christian, are far better adapted than Muslim Arabs (well actually mostly Berbers, even if they speak Arabic) in Europe.

 

[Taranis]

Civilisations don't exist without the people that constitute them.

You might say so, but where does a civilization begin, where does it end? This quickly becomes a very dubious matter of definition, and it usually ends up in the exclusion of the element that one considers as foreign or "the other".

 

[Maciamo]

You might say so, but where does a civilization begin, where does it end? This quickly becomes a very dubious matter of definition, and it usually ends up in the exclusion of the element that one considers as foreign or "the other".

I agree that cultures and civilisations fade progressively into each others with no clear rupture separating them. If cultures were colours, civilisations would be gamuts. Clashes usually happen most frequently when extremes of the spectrum meet each others. For example we could say that Northwest Europe is composed of various shades of blue, Muslim Arabs from the Middle East are shades of yellow, and Turkey is green/turquoise, being Muslim but close in many respects to Europe. Muslim Bosnia could be seen as blue-green, being definitely European, but with some West Asian influence. In that spectrum Morocco would be orange, closer to the Middle East than Turkey, but still closer to Turkey than Europe due to the shared religion. The furthest apart on the colour spectrum two cultures/countries are, the least likely they are to understand each others, share values, lifestyle, ideals of society, etc., and therefore the more likely they are to clash. Morocco in my head is orange (and so is Yemen), at the perfect opposite of blue. I am certainly not advocating a black-and-white vision of the world like some American politicians. But you can't deny that cultural differences exist and that some cultures are closer from each others than others.

 

[LeBrok]

In some degree there is an emotional, or should I say aggression factor, expressed in these acts. He was a muslim but overall the act of killing came from his internal emotional instability, aggression or just being a menace and loving violence.

If it was true that civilization clash is the main source of the violence, then we would have seen similar level of violence in chinese, vietnamese or Japanese communities in America or Europe, where the cultural differences are extreme.

I think that on emotional level he just wanted to harm and kill people. Cultural level gave him the target.

 

[Maciamo]

In some degree there is an emotional, or should I say aggression factor, expressed in these acts. He was a muslim but overall the act of killing came from his internal emotional instability, aggression or just being a menace and loving violence.

His s internal emotional instability was surely the result of his poor integration into Belgian society, like so many other Moroccans. It is not a coincidence that it is almost always Moroccans, and never say Chinese, Indians or even Middle Easterners that commit violent crimes in Belgium. Moroccans represent less than 10% of foreigners in Belgium, but they are the only group constantly making troubles.

If it was true that civilization clash is the main source of the violence, then we would have seen similar level of violence in chinese, vietnamese or Japanese communities in America or Europe, where the cultural differences are extreme.

That's easy for me to answer knowing so well Japan, and East Asia in general. These cultures are far more similar, or at least compatible with European cultures, values and lifestyle than Morocco is. I know many Japanese here in Belgium and they adapt very easily even if they haven't lived outside Japan before. From a religious point of view there is zero tension since the mainstream of both European and East Asian societies is non-religious (atheist or agnostic). All Japanese and Koreans receive a Western-style education similar to that of Europeans. Most of the infrastructure, system, lifestyle, hobbies and interests in Japan and Europe differ very little. The economic level is similar. Moroccans in Belgium, even after two generations, keep their women inside while men hang out together in the streets (like gangs). The education level among Moroccans is also very low.

But as even the Chinese and Vietnamese, who come from poorer, less educated backgrounds than the Japanese or Koreans, hardly ever cause any problem in Europe, I think that the main reason is really one of compatibility of cultures, as well as the peaceful, discreet and adaptable character of East Asians. Moroccans are all the opposite.

I think that on emotional level he just wanted to harm and kill people. Cultural level gave him the target.

Or he just wanted to kill people that were not Muslim... It's the vogue in the Muslim world at the moment.

 

[Carlos]

I think that Moroccans are great unknown, I have met many Moroccans have shown me a dose of education and humanity very large, some perhaps with a lower educational level tend to the rogue, but that would happen in any society needs.

There's a movie that is titled: Talk to her, talk to a Moroccan because they are great people, very polite, sensitive and it shows that behind them there is great ethical and moral tradition. It's a shame they are living in a police state, in a regimen without total freedom and like it or not immigration can not be treated badly, do not eat people, talk to a Moroccan and be amazed. There are many myths and stereotypes about them and it is true that many offenders in Europe, but that is not the true spirit of Moroccans, nor that of any human being.

You can not treat people badly or afraid of them, away from people, feel threatened by another human being, because we make that person feel the same and go crazy and finally feel that others do not see it as a human being.

Never thought I'd say this, but my research on the Basque language has changed something in me, I've noticed that there is only one way and is that of love.

It could be a sick man, then I have understood that it could be a drug addict, adulterated drug is wreaking havoc among the people, even among the Moroccans. It is possible that the authorities had not managed to detect its related disease or increased their addiction. Probably, and unfortunately we will see many cases of violence in the future by any immigrant or native, human values ​​are being lost and also the adulterated drug is wreaking havoc on our minds.

 

[Cimmerianbloke]

Such a tragedy had to happen, considering the laxism of Belgian authorities. The guy was convicted for drugs and illegal detention of lethal weapons. He also managed to keep an arsenal and to get his hands on a RPG, God's sake. We are not talking about a small delinquant, the guy obviously had something in mind. There are a couple of professional soldiers in my family, and they have no idea where to find that kind of equipment, and if they could, they could probably not pay the price asked on the black market. However, the authorities insist it was an "isolated action". After this weeks troubles in Brussels thanks to the african community, Belgians are in the process of becoming an endangered species. Thanks to the left wing political parties for that...

 

[Franco]

He could be expatriated to Spain by the Belgian government, but they must hurry up before the socialists leave the power. Zapatero will accept gladly an immigrant that is at the same time a muslim and a crimminal.

 

[Maciamo]

He also managed to keep an arsenal and to get his hands on a RPG, God's sake. We are not talking about a small delinquant, the guy obviously had something in mind. There are a couple of professional soldiers in my family, and they have no idea where to find that kind of equipment, and if they could, they could probably not pay the price asked on the black market. However, the authorities insist it was an "isolated action".

The fact that he did acquired all this arsenal and so fast just out of prison, without the authorities noticing anything, really makes me think that he had some sort of connection to terrorist networks. How else could that be explained ? Or perhaps is it that inside the Moroccan community there is always a friend or a friend who is connected to Al-Qaeda and the like...

6 months ago I explained how Muslim immigrants in Belgium diverted social security funds to finance Islamic terrorism. My calculations gave an estimate of roughly 30% of unemployed Muslim immigrants in Belgium (mostly Moroccans) who are members of a terrorist organisation and get money from the Belgian social security. The total number of Muslims in Belgium (including those with a job) actively supporting Islamic terrorism is consequently much higher.

 

[Carlos]

Do not panic, we can not think that all Moroccans supporting Islamic terrorism, would be an unfounded accusation. In Catalonia, the Spanish region with most Moroccan immigration in Spain the Salafis have tried to seize control of mosques, are Salafists and failed.

It is a mistake of the authorities, it may be that when a Moroccan commits a criminal act are responsible for all Moroccans.

The criminals and criminals to be expelled. In Spain, anyone engaged in an armed gang is imprisoned, there are many contributors to E.TA. in jail and does not mean that all Basques are partners, the criminal only represents himself.

 

[Templar]

Another example of how radical liberalism fails to react to dangerous problems. We need a European leader with a modern attitude (not the damn post-modern attitude). Support lavishly people who are good and punish offenders with no mercy.

 

[Wilhelm]

Moroccans are also causing alot of trouble here in Spain, specially in towns were their numbers are high. Every week you see some type of criminality committed by a moroccan. It's the truth. They have very difficulty to adapt (supposing they want, my guess is that they don't want)

 

[Cimmerianbloke]

I get your point, Maciamo, that guy cannot "just be a weapon fanatic". As I explained in another thread, even professional soldiers would have hard time finding such black market weapons, and they would still need to be able to afford the kind of prices smugglers ask for. This arsenal had a purpose, it had to be used for a grand scale attack. Unfortunately, I am well aware of how the moroccans milk the system in Belgium, you can also add to the equation that, like everywhere in Europe but notoriously in Spain (the M30 Mosque in Madrid is a typical example), the islamic movements are also lavishly financed by saudi petrodollars who finance islamic banks,"cultural centers" and mosques. Actually, every time you drive your car from A to B, you contribute to the encroachment of muslims all over Europe. My experience shows that Ireland and Poland are relatively safe from muslim immigration. I suppose the weather and high penetration of catholicism in these countries do not qualify them as conquered land...

 

[Yetos]

If I kill immigrants I purify Europe and I Help my race, (modern religion)

If I die Fighting the Devils I will go to Heaven (early Christian)

If I liberate Jerusalem I will be at the place right of God (Crusaders time)


If you kill a non faithful you will go to heaven (Muslim religion)

Non Faithful must pay taxes to faithful otherwise they lose their heads (Muslim religion)

The world is Heritage only to faithfuls (muslim religion)

Dogmatic religions are Dangerous.

 

[Ricky]

Well to be honest i feel europe must stop uncontrolled immigration. I have been to india,thailand and some parts of africa. The people there are friendly, but the moment some foreigner settles there permanently they become suspicious and many start grumbling that their lands are being taken over by "foreigners". Yes it's true few europeans do settle there. Although few and most of them happily mix with the people and their culture still "Our land taken over by foreigners" comment runs amoung people. So the truth is that people like to keep their land and their culture and generally no one likes if other nationalities comes to settle permanently. So much for some "intellectuals" saying that only europeans are rascist or xenophobic. But like i said the europeans are generally secular and happily mix with the locals. Unfortunatley i cant say the same about muslims immigrants. I am using muslim immigrants because they generally tend to lose their national identity here and with meeting other muslims in mosques they totally accept muslim identity. One of the biggest problems amoung muslims is the fact that they are taught by mullahs about religion like when they reach 6 years of age. These people teach all nonsense and yes many of you must have seen them on news talking about how bad europeans are, yeah we give them right of expression no matter that is hate mongering. The parents instead of throwing that guy out or reporting him does nothing. Why?? bcoz of fears of ostracism from their community. Another problem is that although in europe many muslim men have the typical muslim male mentality of the places they come from. That's why rape of european girls are common amoung muslim immigrants. Morrocoans are well known for this in mnay eastern european countries. Reacently there were cases where muslim men were involved in kidnapping and raping "white girls". It's seen in europe, australia. Now many pacifists had said that rape is dome by everyone so what's special about this?? True rape is done cutting across religious or race. But here rape is commited against one particular race. Yes it's true that many muslims opnely call white girls as whores, prostitutes etc. If you need proof then you just have to ask other immigrants like indians or chinese . they will tell you it's true. So the basic thing is muslims generally cant get along with others. The good muslims keep quite bcoz there is a fear amoung them that they will be targetted by these fanatics. The result is these fanatics have a run while the good ones keep quite. But it is a problem for others. The only solution i find is to nip it from the bud ie- stop these mullahs from teaching the kids or moniter their teachings. Unfortunately the multiculturist will have problem with this and if the govt does this they will join and cry foul and call everyone supporting this as fascists. So my only request would be to stop immigration. The native european population is declining. So we cant afford such unchecked immigration. I wont europe to be democratic, secular and with native majority for my children