Immigration Moroccan youths beat 54-year old Flemish man to death

[Maciamo]

Expatica : Five suspects in bashing death arrested in Antwerp

5 out of 6 young men aged 16 to 23 were arrested in Antwerp yesterday. They had beaten a man to death in a bus after the man, a train driver, tried to intervene in their squabbling. The suspects are said to be all of Moroccan origin, which only worsen the image of their community in Belgium and indeed all Europe.

Over a third of all people in Belgian jails are of Moroccan descent, and they are well known for randomly attacking or harassing people in public places - a clear sign of non integration of those 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants.

The increased violence and sense of insecurity caused by North African and some other immigrants has resulted in the extreme-right and anti-Islamic party 'Vlaams Belang' to become Flanders' most popular party in the latest polls.

 

[No-name]

What a horrible and tragic event. I pray for the victims family and hope the perpetrators will be brought to justice.

 

[Ma Cherie]

Why is there so much hostility with Moroccans? There has to be a reason as to why those kids lashed out like that. What is the socio-economic situation with North African immigrants and Moroccans? That could be a factor. I don't live Belgium and I can't claim to know the situation with immigrants there, but this sounds like an isolated incident, but that's how these things start out, then it progresses. :?

 

[Maciamo]

It's a fact that Moroccans tend to be poorer than Belgians, but they are not te poorest of all immigrants (Black Africans are), and Belgium's ultra-generous social security system means that almost nobody is needy if they do not want to be (just do the right things to get help from the government). It's not like in the States where poverty can be a real problem and a real cause of violence. Here it's just provocation, delinquency and vandalism (and in this case murder) caused by disoccupied and misadapted immigrants who do not want to adapt or even become Belgian.

 

[No-name]

There is no excuse for this violence- socio-economic situation, poverty or lack of integration don't cut it. I don't think thuggery is a part of Morrocan culture, so I doubt that their resistance to assimilation was a contributing factor.

 

[Maciamo]

I don't think thuggery is a part of Morrocan culture, so I doubt that their resistance to assimilation was a contributing factor.

I don't think they know Moroccan culture so well as they were born and raised in Belgium, and maybe their parents too. Some (many ?) have never been to Morocco, unlike many Belgians... Justly these youths are confused about their origins, about Islam (they typically become more radical, yet less respectful than Moroccans in Morocco) and think that talking with a strong Moroccan accent and harassing people get them noticed. And certainly does, but not in a good way.

 

[No-name]

I don't want to speculate on why they did what they did-- as speculation sounds like I am making excuses for the unexcusable. I don't know anything about Belgium and the social changes you guys are experiencing. I am certain however and hopeful that this is an isolated incident. I have heard reports about loud and harassing behavior-- especially from Muslim males directed at random female... and that type of daily thing would definitely concern me.

I grew up a minority in a minority neighborhood... poor in a single parent house hold. Around me were drugs and gangs... and whatever other negative thing I could have fallen into... but behavior is always a choice.

 

[Maciamo]

It is not an isolated case. There have been other immigrantion-relation crimes making the headlines recently. No later than 2 weeks ago 2 young girls disappeared (probably kidnapped by some pedophile) in Liege, and the only serious suspect the police has so far is a Moroccan guy with a history of sexual abuses on children (see article).

There are also smaller incidents, like two Islamists convicted for inciting race hatred last week.

 

[No-name]

...But that is one case out of how many? I'm not certain how much crime there is in Belgium, certainly there is less violent crime there then there is here in the US. I'm certain in Los Angeles these cases would go unnoticed. I am certain however that all the sexual predators in your country are not Morroccan and that all the Morroccans are not sex offenders.

We have this form of confirmational bias that goes on with the US press- it is kind of like reticular activation- once you are tuned in to looking for something you see it everywhere... once you buy a car, you see dozens of them on the street... It seems like we go through phases of freeway shootings or high speed chases... or some hate crimes against Sikhs who were mistaken for Arabs... but statistically there is no rise in cases, only more attention paid to the events. Some things get noticed, other things get ignored. Those events that are similar imply a rise in incidence or a cluster where none exists. Do you think the Morrocan thing could just be the focusing of attention or is it statistically a persistant problem?

 

[Maciamo]

I'm not certain how much crime there is in Belgium, certainly there is less violent crime there then there is here in the US. I'm certain in Los Angeles these cases would go unnoticed. I

We very rarely hear of serious crimes in Belgium. A murder in a bus or 2 girls who disappear are enough to shock the whole nation and have the prime minister take steps that Bush would only take for a terrorist attack on US soil. Los Angeles has probably more serious crimes in a week than Belgium in a year... Well, one exception about serious crime that is fairly common in Belgium is robbery (esp. banks)...

As for the two kidnapped girls, I have just seen on BBC News that they were found murdered today. The Prime Minister is to address the nation on TV tonight (see, it is not a banal happening here).

Do you think the Morrocan thing could just be the focusing of attention or is it statistically a persistant problem?

Remember what I wrote in a few threads before, about one third of all people in jails in Belgium are Moroccan. It is a persistant problem !

 

[Ma Cherie]

Since there seems to be a problem with some of these Moroccan immigrants what is being done to try to tackle this? These incidents could get worse.

 

[Maciamo]

Not much is being done because the Belgian government is far too kind with immigrants. Did you know that refugees, for instance, could get even more social benefits than Belgians in Belgium ?

 

[Minty]

I don't think they know Moroccan culture so well as they were born and raised in Belgium, and maybe their parents too. Some (many ?) have never been to Morocco, unlike many Belgians... Justly these youths are confused about their origins, about Islam (they typically become more radical, yet less respectful than Moroccans in Morocco) and think that talking with a strong Moroccan accent and harassing people get them noticed. And certainly does, but not in a good way.

I never really understood why people born in the country deliberately would speak in a foreign accent. I try very hard to get rid of my accent or some signs in my English that suggest I am not originally from Australia because I have understood speaking accurate English will get me jobs and other things.

 

[Minty]

...But that is one case out of how many? I'm not certain how much crime there is in Belgium, certainly there is less violent crime there then there is here in the US. I'm certain in Los Angeles these cases would go unnoticed. I am certain however that all the sexual predators in your country are not Morroccan and that all the Morroccans are not sex offenders.
We have this form of confirmational bias that goes on with the US press- it is kind of like reticular activation- once you are tuned in to looking for something you see it everywhere... once you buy a car, you see dozens of them on the street... It seems like we go through phases of freeway shootings or high speed chases... or some hate crimes against Sikhs who were mistaken for Arabs... but statistically there is no rise in cases, only more attention paid to the events. Some things get noticed, other things get ignored. Those events that are similar imply a rise in incidence or a cluster where none exists. Do you think the Morrocan thing could just be the focusing of attention or is it statistically a persistant problem?

Hmmm this is why Indians are afraid to immigrate to France. All because of the big fuss in the media that French are racists against Arabs.

 

[Ma Cherie]

I know this is a bit off topic, but has there been any anti-Muslim incidents in Belgium? I'm asking because, if there had been, these sudden attacks could have been some kind of backlash. :?

 

[Maciamo]

I was having a look at the US stats for languages spoken at home (i.e. non native speakers of English) and I noticed that in the whole USA (nearly 300 million inhabitants) and out of 47 million non native speakers of English above the age of 5, only 0.55 million people spoke Arabic as their mother tongue. This is less than in Belgium, which is the size of Maine !