Immigration Muslim Migration

[American Idiot]

I still think the holy wars are mainly the invention of the Christians and Muslims, both got big by being political systems and powers structures.
When the Catholic church attacked Northern Europe with bribery and mercenaries I dont think the Popes really believed they where doing gods work and saving souls.

At one time, pre-Christian Rome persecuted Jews and Christians too ...... and mainly for political reasons at the time, as well.

"Holy Wars" have always been a part of human nature. They werent invented by early Christians and Muslims, although the wars they started in the name of religion are much more well known and well documented historically. And, IMO, they probably took it to a whole new level that many other religions didnt.

 

[American Idiot]

They see the things that are happening in some European countries and hope to prevent that from spreading to the US maybe?
Immigrants from Muslim countries are generally over represented in violent crime rates and welfare use in France, Belgium, the UK, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, the Netherlands, Germany, and several other countries. Though in the end I believe it depends on the specific Muslim source country.

yeah you are probably right. The problems you listed for Europe are almost un-heard of among the Muslims in America.
It's rare to see a muslim or arab-american living on welfare or getting involved with violent criminal acts etc.. and I guess some AMericans fear if the Muslim population grows here then those same problems happening in Europe will follow, although I dont see anything like that happening in the near future.

Of course there are exceptions but for the most part those problems are rare among Muslims living in America.

I also know you are telling the truth when you say it's different depending on the source country.
I have noticed differences among Muslims from different countries who come to the U.S.
Everything from economic/social class, cultural attitudes, religious and even political attitudes can vary at times depending on which country they came from.



Honestly, I dont think some AMericans even really know exactly why they're against Muslim immigrants. They just know they feel that way and that's it.

 

[Idun]

I see what you are saying. But I guess my question is, do Muslim immigrants actually try to impose these beliefs on the native populations of the countries to which they migrate to?

Like I said, I cant speak for Europe. I dont know a whole lot of the details as to the problem with Muslim immigration to Europe. I do know there has always been much more controversy with things like Sharia Law in European nations than there has been in America, at least on the national level.

So I know the situation with Muslims in Europe is different in many ways than it is here in America.

But no matter what Muslims or anyone else believes or what their religion teaches them, it's ok unless they are actually trying to impose those beliefs on the people of the countries they are moving to or unless they really are trying to change some kind of policy or law in those countries and impose their beliefs that way.

Guess what I am saying is that, even if every single Muslim in the world truly believed that all non-Muslims are infidels who deserved to die, it means nothing if it is simply a belief system and a matter of opinion.
If they are putting those types of beliefs into action then obviously that would be a great problem but if it's simply just an ideology or religious doctrine then its harmless in and of itself.

I just know in America, no matter what Muslims believe or what their religion teaches them about non-Muslims, they generally aren't acting out negatively on those beliefs.
I see many people who are against Muslim immigrants on the grounds that their religion teaches them to hate all non-muslims etc... But for the sake of argument, Even IF Muslims did believe that... well so f*cking what?
What difference does it make?

It doesnt actually matter what they believe , IMO.

I just dont see how anyone can be against a group of immigrants simply for what their opinion is or for what they believe in.
I mean it doesnt matter what they believe. Unless they actually act out negatively on those beliefs, they arent bothering anyone and it means nothing.

Like I said, in Europe I know the situation is somewhat different when it comes to Muslim immigration.

But I just know that here in America, generally speaking, Muslim immigrants dont cause any major trouble or any problems and regardless of what they may or may not believe about non-Muslims, they arent trying to impose anything on Americans or trying to make any changes to any of our laws to suit their own culture/beliefs. At least not on the national level.

I guess I am seeing this from how things are in America. I just dont actually see WHY any Americans are against Muslim immigrants coming here.
They dont do anything that actually creates any problems nor do they have any negative impact here.... not any more so than anyone else already living here.
I just dont see any real reason as to why Americans are against Muslims coming here.

A person can believe anything they want but as long as they arent causing any problems then what difference does it make?

The only real reason I can tell as to why Americans are truly against Muslims coming here is simply because of the way they are portrayed in the media and in politics which gives a greatly exaggerated impression to non-Muslim Americans and creates this atmosphere of panic or fear that is rooted in that false impression.

Why should you let in and even give citizenship to anyone that hates you or your culture?

Add to that, the immigration is welfare based mostly in Europe, majority are not needed in anyway.

 

[Idun]

At one time, pre-Christian Rome persecuted Jews and Christians too ...... and mainly for political reasons at the time, as well.

"Holy Wars" have always been a part of human nature. They werent invented by early Christians and Muslims, although the wars they started in the name of religion are much more well known and well documented historically. And, IMO, they probably took it to a whole new level that many other religions didnt.

Yep but those where not wars, Romans where honest about their invading and plundering.

Actually Romans and Jews tried to persecute together the early Christians away but sadly they did not succeed.
You can say that if you look at the death toll caused by the politics of the Popes.

If you look at the individual freedoms, social structure, customs, values, spread of wealth, womens rights etc. of Northern Europe before the Catholic invasion, they really did not get anything better.
Even the unfree of the pagan societies had better conditions and the possibility to get it back.

From Saxon wars to Northern Crusades millions where pushed from free status to slavery and if not that, then taxed to death, literally the last bread taken from mouth.

Giant pyramid scheme led from Rome.

 

[Garrick]

I just know in America, no matter what Muslims believe or what their religion teaches them about non-Muslims, they generally aren't acting out negatively on those beliefs.
I see many people who are against Muslim immigrants on the grounds that their religion teaches them to hate all non-muslims etc... But for the sake of argument, Even IF Muslims did believe that... well so f*cking what?
What difference does it make?

It doesnt actually matter what they believe , IMO.

I just dont see how anyone can be against a group of immigrants simply for what their opinion is or for what they believe in.
I mean it doesnt matter what they believe. Unless they actually act out negatively on those beliefs, they arent bothering anyone and it means nothing.

Always you should have in mind three areas of division.

America is Dar al-Amn. In that area Muslims are small minority. When they small minority they know to be very silent, polite, gentle, etc. Someone calls that behavior - mimicry. If that behavior is natural or (much often) learned by the Islamic education we can abstract. It is important it is Dar al-Amn and all should be right. Highlighting and disclosure are not in the plan. Of course and in Dar al-Amn they can try something. High birth rate and new immigration for example.

Completely different situation is when in an area Muslim population become reasonably numerous. Then, area changing from Dar al-Amn to Dar al-Harb. Then created permanent state of conflict. Or Muslims are beginning to dominate or non-Muslims are able to defend themselves. In long term unresolved result (conflict) is also possible (while one of group do not weaken).

If outcome is defeat of non-Muslim the area becomes Dar al-Islam. Mostly non-Muslims escape from such areas, some of them (from fear, or another reasons) convert to Islam. In this area is Muslim rule and Sharia Law. If you live in that area as non-Muslim surely you will care what they beleive and how you behavior. Because the wrong moves or words for non-Muslims are not recommended.

I said, if man is Muslim hate against him is not appropriate. In Dar al-Amn there no problems (especially if authorities are in your side, if no you can expect various types of complaints). Personally, I always try that man see as man, no matter what is his religion, race, nation, etc. (certainly same for woman). In Dar al-Harb you must be prepare for conflicts and fights. If you are not prepare, you can leave that area on time. People who are not prepare for conflicts and fights and they remain in the area where the winners are Muslims, as one of outcomes they have converting to Islam. But converts should know: the never will be true Muslims. Only their children and next generations.

I think knowledge is power. People should inform about Muslims and Islam religion, especially in the areas where Muslims come to live (in the areas Dar al-Harb people every day are finding character of Islam). Balkans today is Dar al-Harb.

One interesting thing for Muslim is that they have very simicar behavior regardless of nationality, race, language, social status, area of world... In Kosovo, Somalia, Mindanao, wherever. That is because of childhood they learn exactly the same patterns of behavior and outlooks on world.

 

[LeBrok]

For everyone, but maybe the immigrants should receive an extra tough beating due to the lack of respect showed for their host country. It is like being a guest at someone's house, you are supposed to behave better than you would in your own.

How many times did you beat your guests?

 

[toyomotor]

Its not intolerance, it is basic self-preservation to be against replacing your culture and population with another one.

That's precisely the point I was trying to make in my original post. I don't consider myself racist in any way, but I am concerned that, with the current level of immigration from Muslim countries, some western countries will eventually be "swamped" by Islam. I think this issue needs to be scrutinised a lot more carefully by all western governments. This post isn't about wars between religions, but the gradual immersion of a host countrys culture due to immigration by people of other cultures until the hosts are outnumbered and the incomers culture prevails. Scary!!!

 

[LeBrok]

They see the things that are happening in some European countries and hope to prevent that from spreading to the US maybe?
Immigrants from Muslim countries are generally over represented in violent crime rates and welfare use in France, Belgium, the UK, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, the Netherlands, Germany, and several other countries. Though in the end I believe it depends on the specific Muslim source country.

Quality of emigrants have nothing to do with their religion. It looks like europe takes all emigrants who applies. Canada, US or Australia uses much better selection system based on jobs, education needs of host country. Our Muslims are rather peaceful people compared to other minorities, or prairie natives which are predominantly Christian these days.

I believe Bosnia is overwhelmingly a muslim country. How is the crime rate there? Much worse than in Serbia or Croatia?

I don't think religion has anything to do with quality of a man, especially when it comes to criminal behaviour.

 

[American Idiot]

Why should you let in and even give citizenship to anyone that hates you or your culture?

.

again, simply just having an opinion is irrelevant and harmless in itself alone.
especially when most of them end up becoming productive members in our society anyway, regardless of what their views might be.


I dont care what their opinion is. It doesnt have any negative impact on me or my life what so ever.
As long as they don't cause trouble or simply become a burden on society and create more problems, then what difference does it make?


besides, I dont have any real say in the matter since it's the government that decides who is allowed entry into the country and what the criteria is,
If the majority of the people here had a serious problem with it, then it would matter, but that doesnt seem to be the case.





in reality, the Muslims I have known actually dont hate our culture, anyway.
And their children are usually Americanized.

 

[American Idiot]

Always you should have in mind three areas of division.

America is Dar al-Amn. In that area Muslims are small minority. When they small minority they know to be very silent, polite, gentle, etc. Someone calls that behavior - mimicry. If that behavior is natural or (much often) learned by the Islamic education we can abstract. It is important it is Dar al-Amn and all should be right. Highlighting and disclosure are not in the plan. Of course and in Dar al-Amn they can try something. High birth rate and new immigration for example.

Completely different situation is when in an area Muslim population become reasonably numerous. Then, area changing from Dar al-Amn to Dar al-Harb. Then created permanent state of conflict. Or Muslims are beginning to dominate or non-Muslims are able to defend themselves. In long term unresolved result (conflict) is also possible (while one of group do not weaken).

If outcome is defeat of non-Muslim the area becomes Dar al-Islam. Mostly non-Muslims escape from such areas, some of them (from fear, or another reasons) convert to Islam. In this area is Muslim rule and Sharia Law. If you live in that area as non-Muslim surely you will care what they beleive and how you behavior. Because the wrong moves or words for non-Muslims are not recommended.

I said, if man is Muslim hate against him is not appropriate. In Dar al-Amn there no problems (especially if authorities are in your side, if no you can expect various types of complaints). Personally, I always try that man see as man, no matter what is his religion, race, nation, etc. (certainly same for woman). In Dar al-Harb you must be prepare for conflicts and fights. If you are not prepare, you can leave that area on time. People who are not prepare for conflicts and fights and they remain in the area where the winners are Muslims, as one of outcomes they have converting to Islam. But converts should know: the never will be true Muslims. Only their children and next generations.

I think knowledge is power. People should inform about Muslims and Islam religion, especially in the areas where Muslims come to live (in the areas Dar al-Harb people every day are finding character of Islam). Balkans today is Dar al-Harb.

One interesting thing for Muslim is that they have very simicar behavior regardless of nationality, race, language, social status, area of world... In Kosovo, Somalia, Mindanao, wherever. That is because of childhood they learn exactly the same patterns of behavior and outlooks on world.

well, like I was saying earlier. The Muslim population in Europe is dramatically higher than in America and I know the issues and problems linked to Muslims in Europe are different than in America because of this.

 

[Garrick]

I know everything you wrote but dont understand how being hostile is an error?

It is not easy for explanation.

For me, I think knowledge is power. If you have knowledge about

Islam, the spread of Islam and mission that all world according Islam should become Dar al-Islam (without kafirs, infidels) where there are only Muslim rule and Sharia Law,

that fact alone will influence your thoughts and actions.

It would be the best that every man and woman first of all are people. As human beings every person has own qualities without religion, culture, etc.

But it is ideal, real world is different. Especially for Muslims because Islamic education of the childhood.

Between Christian or Atheist always exists tension with some Muslim, even when he is the best friend. Because he learned Islamic behavior and patterns. For example although he is your the best friend he will take the side of Muslim who sees for the first time in his life. Because Muslims learned they are all member of the Ummah (Muslim community) and they must be on the side of Muslim against non-Muslims.

 

[Templar]

I believe Bosnia is overwhelmingly a muslim country. How is the crime rate there? Much worse than in Serbia or Croatia?

Islam in post-communist counties is totally different. There was forced secularization which morphed the religion into something much closer to Christianity than Islam in the Middle East. People drink alcohol regularly, barely any1 does the 5 prayers, barely any1 thinks of going on pilgrimage to Mecca, etc. They still consider themselves Muslim though because they believe in a God, heaven and hell, etc. But won't believe in the trinity because it is considered polytheistic. In the end their beliefs become almost exactly the same as that of Unitarian Christians.

 

[LeBrok]

Islam in post-communist counties is totally different. There was forced secularization which morphed the religion into something much closer to Christianity than Islam in the Middle East. People drink alcohol regularly, barely any1 does the 5 prayers, barely any1 thinks of going on pilgrimage to Mecca, etc. They still consider themselves Muslim though because they believe in a God, heaven and hell, etc. But won't believe in the trinity because it is considered polytheistic. In the end their beliefs become almost exactly the same as that of Unitarian Christians.

I think it is a similar situation with Muslims in America in general.

 

[Jackson]

I think this video illustrates well what i mean. It's easy for a Muslim to say that they don't support 'extremism' (more fundamental understandings of Islam), but at the end of the day when they have to make a choice, most of them will side with other Muslims than with other non-Muslims in their country. And the ones that don't would probably be regarded as basically apostates, or at the very least quite bad Muslims. It's simply the reality. At the end of the day their belief systems are not compatible with ours, so we are on a collision course whether we want to be or not, unfortunately.

 

[Garrick]

well, like I was saying earlier. The Muslim population in Europe is dramatically higher than in America and I know the issues and problems linked to Muslims in Europe are different than in America because of this.

Islam is big religion. I said, every man or woman have human quality, without religion, culture, etc. Among Muslims have diligent, smart, good people, etc. as everywhere.

A society in general should be tolerant and respect diversity. The main problem of Islam are postulates this religion, political and legal system (Sharia Law) which are incompatible with modern society. In Islam there is no separation of religion and politics. In Dar al-Islam Christians and Jewish people can exist but by Muslim rules and Sharia Law (practically as second class citizens, they must pay special tax - Jizyah for life). For others, the members of another religions and Atheists, there is no place. Islam has mission that whole world should become Muslim, world Caliphate with Muslim rule and Sharia Law. And duty of every Muslim is to act to achieve the mission. Religious duty of Muslims is Jihad, which can be conducted in various ways.

Someone would say that it is sufficient to establish a body of clerics and smart, educated people, who would mark all disputed points in Islam, which are incompatible with modern society. This body would change and modernize Islam, align with modern society and problem would be solved. Yes that is right way. But there is big problem. Qu'ran is for believers word of God. No one human being has right to change even a single word in Qu'ran. If any cleric's body did this they would be labeled as infidels.

In the factual situation it is very hard to find a way to fit Islam in modern society.

Some countries where Muslims constitute significant percent of population, trying to accept that Muslims among themselves apply Sharia Law. What it means? Allowing Sharia Law one legal system doesn't exist in the entire territory of that country. If democratic Europeans countries where Muslim population reaches for example 10% would be allow the apply of Sharia Law. There are not easy questions. And again I think the knowledge is power. If we have knowledge about some important things that will enable more accurate judging and our actions.

 

[American Idiot]

Islam is big religion. I said, every man or woman have human quality, without religion, culture, etc. Among Muslims have diligent, smart, good people, etc. as everywhere.

A society in general should be tolerant and respect diversity. The main problem of Islam are postulates this religion, political and legal system (Sharia Law) which are incompatible with modern society. In Islam there is no separation of religion and politics. In Dar al-Islam Christians and Jewish people can exist but by Muslim rules and Sharia Law (practically as second class citizens, they must pay special tax - Jizyah for life). For others, the members of another religions and Atheists, there is no place. Islam has mission that whole world should become Muslim, world Caliphate with Muslim rule and Sharia Law. And duty of every Muslim is to act to achieve the mission. Religious duty of Muslims is Jihad, which can be conducted in various ways.

Someone would say that it is sufficient to establish a body of clerics and smart, educated people, who would mark all disputed points in Islam, which are incompatible with modern society. This body would change and modernize Islam, align with modern society and problem would be solved. Yes that is right way. But there is big problem. Qu'ran is for believers word of God. No one human being has right to change even a single word in Qu'ran. If any cleric's body did this they would be labeled as infidels.

In the factual situation it is very hard to find a way to fit Islam in modern society.

Some countries where Muslims constitute significant percent of population, trying to accept that Muslims among themselves apply Sharia Law. What it means? Allowing Sharia Law one legal system doesn't exist in the entire territory of that country. If democratic Europeans countries where Muslim population reaches for example 10% would be allow the apply of Sharia Law. There are not easy questions. And again I think the knowledge is power. If we have knowledge about some important things that will enable more accurate judging and our actions.

yes I see what you're saying. I have even read where, with Islam, there has never been a true religious authority in place.
From it's inception , it allowed for every person to interpret the Koran in his own, personally.
Even though there are teachers and religious leaders, there has never been a true authority in place, like say with the Catholic Church among early Christianity for example.

And I think it has created some of the problems you mention. Like you said, there is no ultimate authority to try and modernize it. It's really up to the individual practitioner.

I think this lack of authority, together with the fact they dont truly separate religion from government/society, are also the reasons why there are different official religious policies even among the Muslim countries themselves.

 

[Aberdeen]

yes I see what you're saying. I have even read where, with Islam, there has never been a true religious authority in place.
From it's inception , it allowed for every person to interpret the Koran in his own, personally.
Even though there are teachers and religious leaders, there has never been a true authority in place, like say with the Catholic Church among early Christianity for example.

And I think it has created some of the problems you mention. Like you said, there is no ultimate authority to try and modernize it. It's really up to the individual practitioner.

I think this lack of authority, together with the fact they dont truly separate religion from government/society, are also the reasons why there are different official religious policies even among the Muslim countries themselves.

There are definitely recognized authorities that can make life or death decisions about moslem theology and-or acceptable behaviour in a particular country or region and/or for a particular brand of islam. Are you familiar with the word "fatwa", or the violent disagreements that take place between sunni and shiite moslems?

 

[adamo]

The mosque I suppose would be the Islamic equivalent of Christianity's church (Protestant/catholic/Anglican/Lutheran etc.) and judaism's synagogue.