my recent family finder 'ethnic results'
- Thread starter Maleth
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Angela
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59% Southern European
25% Asia Minor
7% Eastern Middle east
6% North African
2% Finland and Northern Siberia
Sorry, Maleth...here I go with my strong opinions again...FTDNA stinks as far as autosomal analysis is concerned. :grin:
McDonald set it up, and so far as I know, the Ashkenazim are still one of the reference populations for Middle East, which mucks up all the results as far as I'm concerned. Even 23andme is better, and that's a mess too.
Aberdeen
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So, if I have my Y and mtDNA results from FTDNA, could I send the information to another company and get autosomal information from them, or am I stuck with FTDNA?
Sile
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McDonald did the very old family finder with Ftdna , he has not been involved with them for over 2 years. The new one is created by ...IIRC ....Dr. David Mittelman, Chief Scientific Officer, at Family Tree DNA with Razib Khan and Rui Hu, the creators of MyOrigins
Go join Gedmatch , it's free, once they give you a kit # it will be F followed by your ftdna kit#. Then you can use all the other dozen AuDna "companies" on the gedmatch site.
Angela
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Have they published a "White Paper" explaining their methodology, as 23andme has done? If not that, perhaps they've published a list of the reference populations? I'd be interested in seeing whether they are still the same.
Sile
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Maleth
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Thanks for this link. I missed it. I will try to join Gedmatch (Gave it a look and it looks a little complex for me at least, but I will spend some more time checking it out as Im a little short of (free) time at present)
They also do like coloured clouds over the mentioned regions.
So 59% South European covers Portugal Spain Italy and Southern Balkans
25% Asia Minor covers Turkey Azerbaijan Armenia and Georgia
(these are all same latidue more or less)
7% Easter Middle east covers Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel and Egypt
6% North African covers Morroco
2% Finland and North Siberia Covers what it states.
I also note there 1% missing. Hmm what is it? Neandertal? it dosent say.
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Angela
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@Sile, This is the list of reference populations being used.
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/autosomal-ancestry/ethnic-origins/reference-populations-used/
There hasn't been any change. They are still including the Ashkenazim in the Middle East reference population, for example. (Well, I'm assuming it's the Ashkenazim, as that's what it was before. In the list it just says "Jewish", which can mean different things.) So, that will be off for southern Europeans.
There are some other questionable groupings as well.
@Maleth, The calculators based on the raw results from 23andme and FtDNA and others can be fun to play around with, but it has to be kept in mind that these "components" don't come with a date stamp, and they "hide" all sorts of more ancient components. Just as one example, in Dodecad, for example, northern Italians have a small percentage of SW Asian, which is the Levant or even slightly south of that. There was a lot of commentary to the effect that this must have arrived in Italy from the Levant post Neolithic. The only problem is that Oetzi already had more than that percentage of that component in 3300 BC. Does that mean that the amount present in Italians today, north to south, is all attributable to the Neolithic? Not necessarily, but certainly much of it probably does date to that time period, at least in a lot of areas. Do you see what I mean?
Maleth, it isn't all that hard to use gedmatch. The hardest part is just downloading your genome from FTDNA onto your computer. Then you just upload it to gedmatch. Under the admixture/ancestry link you can find calculators by various bloggers. If you have problems, just holler. Most of us have done it.
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/autosomal-ancestry/ethnic-origins/reference-populations-used/
There hasn't been any change. They are still including the Ashkenazim in the Middle East reference population, for example. (Well, I'm assuming it's the Ashkenazim, as that's what it was before. In the list it just says "Jewish", which can mean different things.) So, that will be off for southern Europeans.
There are some other questionable groupings as well.
@Maleth, The calculators based on the raw results from 23andme and FtDNA and others can be fun to play around with, but it has to be kept in mind that these "components" don't come with a date stamp, and they "hide" all sorts of more ancient components. Just as one example, in Dodecad, for example, northern Italians have a small percentage of SW Asian, which is the Levant or even slightly south of that. There was a lot of commentary to the effect that this must have arrived in Italy from the Levant post Neolithic. The only problem is that Oetzi already had more than that percentage of that component in 3300 BC. Does that mean that the amount present in Italians today, north to south, is all attributable to the Neolithic? Not necessarily, but certainly much of it probably does date to that time period, at least in a lot of areas. Do you see what I mean?
Maleth, it isn't all that hard to use gedmatch. The hardest part is just downloading your genome from FTDNA onto your computer. Then you just upload it to gedmatch. Under the admixture/ancestry link you can find calculators by various bloggers. If you have problems, just holler. Most of us have done it.
Maleth
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Thanks for info Angela, and I understand your point. Another point is that my Great grand father was English from Surrey (Rixon) and there is not even a hint of that. I am not sure how this ethnicity works? Does this get through to all the family from both sides? and from when to when? I will try to see if I can find some easy to digest information about it.
I had a quick try on Gedmatch signed up dowloaded raw data uploaded it and all im getting now is
| Kits marked with [SIZE=+2]*[/SIZE] have not been tokenized and have not completed batch processing. |
| EDIT or DELETE your DNA resource profiles. |
I deleted and uploaded once more but got the same message. I think I will give it a break now and try and read and read and read (my poor eyes
) to see if I can finally get it right etrified: :grin:
Maleth
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I found this very helpful and easy to follow. So after all, siblings can get different results since autosmal dna is not inherited at same percentages from grand parents. This can vary from one sibling to the other.........
http://www.dnainheritance.kahikatea.net/autosomal.html
http://www.dnainheritance.kahikatea.net/autosomal.html
Angela
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This is where it gets a little confusing if we're going to be precise. Those aren't the reference populations for Southern European; those are the areas where it clusters. In the case of southern European, for example, as per their list of reference populations in their white paper, "Southern Europe" is
| Southern European | ||
| Italian | ||
| Sardinian | ||
| Tuscan |
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/autosomal-ancestry/ethnic-origins/reference-populations-used/
So, in your case, 59% of your genome is related to the genomes of these three groups. For Middle Eastern, the reference groups are Druze and Palestinians, and probably the Bedouin, although the chart isn't totally clear. "Asia Minor" is definitely the Adygei (Circassians) and the Iranians. It's not clear from the chart if the Jews are used as references for the Middle East or for Asia Minor, and which "Jews" are used. It's my understanding that they are the Ashkenazim, and that they were used as part of the reference sample for Middle East. If that's wrong, perhaps people with more familiarity with FTDNA can correct the record here. At any rate, to use them either for aMiddle East or an Asia Minor reference sample shows, I think, a fundamental lack of appreciation for the ethnogenesis of the Ashkenaz people.
It's also important to realize that these "clusters" don't come with a date stamp, although maybe we can make some educated guesses for an area, if not for an individual.
When you do the Dodecad analysis, the Southern European may be roughly analogous to his "Mediterranean"; the Middle Eastern to his SW Asian; Asia Minor to West Asian.
You are the product of all your ancestors. I would have thought the English great grandfather might have lowered some of these more Mediterranean and "West Asian" components and might have provided some "West European". However, once you get to great grandparent level and beyond, you can start "losing" dna from certain ancestors. That's why I'm not much of a genealogy person even though I've expanded some of the trees done by relatives just to see if I could pick up different trails from other countries and regions. Even if I have an "illustrious" ancestor up the tree somewhere, I might share absolutely no dna with him. (In my case, the anarchist, anti-landlord milieu of my area has left enough influence on me that I would prefer not to share any dna with any of these robber barons, so it's all good.:grin: )
It can vary by a few percent, but I've never seen it vary by more than that, at least not on 23andme. In fact, I've never seen more than a few percent variation even in a small village, whatever the difference in "appearance", for example.
Did you get gedmatch to work? I've never seen that error message.
Maleth
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Thanks for your patience to explain + link...much appreciated. So we know with which populations the comparisons are made. As an amateur, I find it a little strange however that example the Italian samples cover the whole South European region including Spain. (Its interesting just to learn on the methodologies involved)
I noticed that from the chart in the link I posted, also just learned today that my Great grand father (from England) mum was actually Jewish so I presume that would bring back the genome from that side back to the Med (if it works like that as its not always the case with Jewish Mtdna depending on the origins)
Haha this passed through my mind so many times its so true. When I read about the orgins of my surname of how it arrived here in 1200's (documented) with 'privileges' in very turbulant times, Im not too sure if in reality it can be romanticised as much some people do
etrified: Re Gedmatch I have now come across this in the help section...
Before deleting any kits, please note the following:
1. If you have recently uploaded a kit, and are not getting many matches, it may be that processing is not finished. It can take a couple of days for all processing to complete, depending on the current number of kits being processed. The column 'Date Batch Processed' will show 'zeros' if batch processing is not completed for this kit.
so im going to give it a few days to see what happens. I feel I have done it right and not much more I can do. If nothing happens I will delete and relaod. I did not know what tokenized mean, and figured out from online dictionary that probably it needs to be sort of authenticated and processed from the side of GedMatch and it could also take a few days. (Just hoping of course) In the meantime I will listen to lots of Vivaldi and Lully :grin:....... Im off to what 'Music are you listening to' now...........
Maleth
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From GedMatch
NOTICE: (January 26) Some kits uploaded since about Jan 19 were not properly processed. We will be reprocessing the affected kits.
It may take about a week to get caught up. You do not need to do anything.
:bored:
NOTICE: (January 26) Some kits uploaded since about Jan 19 were not properly processed. We will be reprocessing the affected kits.
It may take about a week to get caught up. You do not need to do anything.
:bored:
John Doe
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My FTDNA "My Origins" results are supposed to be due in the next couple of days. As an Ashkenazi Jew I wonder what will my results be, although, assuming I take my 23andme results into account (95% Ashkenazi on standard) I suppose it'll be 100% Jewish diaspora.
Maleth
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Oh its working. But percentages are all different which one is correct? I have a bit of everyone I think.... or am I using the wrong programmes? They are too different anyways.
Eurogenes
Dodecad
Population
Mediterranean Farmer37.16%
Anatolian Farmer 23.56%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 20.32%
Middle Eastern Herder 14.55%
East African Pastoralist 3.11%
East Asian Farmer 0.48%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.32%
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.28%
Bantu Farmer 0.20%
which one is correct? I have a bit of everyone I think.... or am I using the wrong programmes? They are too different anyways.Eurogenes
| Population | |
| North_Atlantic | 22.64% |
| Baltic | 8.20% |
| West_Med | 22.04% |
| West_Asian | 10.18% |
| East_Med | 26.89% |
| Red_Sea | 4.79% |
| South_Asian | 1.33% |
| East_Asian | - |
| Siberian | 0.11% |
| Amerindian | - |
| Oceanian | 0.55% |
| Northeast_African | 2.03% |
| Sub-Saharan | 1.24% |
Dodecad
| Population | |
| East_European | 6.17% |
| West_European | 21.54% |
| Mediterranean | 33.60% |
| Neo_African | 0.83% |
| West_Asian | 19.74% |
| South_Asian | - |
| Northeast_Asian | - |
| Southeast_Asian | - |
| East_African | 1.41% |
| Southwest_Asian | 10.56% |
| Northwest_African | 5.69% |
| Palaeo_African | 0.45% |
Population
Mediterranean Farmer37.16%
Anatolian Farmer 23.56%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 20.32%
Middle Eastern Herder 14.55%
East African Pastoralist 3.11%
East Asian Farmer 0.48%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.32%
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.28%
Bantu Farmer 0.20%
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John Doe
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Oh its working. But percentages are all different
Eurogenes
Population North_Atlantic 22.64% Baltic 8.20% West_Med 22.04% West_Asian 10.18% East_Med 26.89% Red_Sea 4.79% South_Asian 1.33% East_Asian - Siberian 0.11% Amerindian - Oceanian 0.55% Northeast_African 2.03% Sub-Saharan 1.24%
Dodecad
Population East_European 6.17% West_European 21.54% Mediterranean 33.60% Neo_African 0.83% West_Asian 19.74% South_Asian - Northeast_Asian - Southeast_Asian - East_African 1.41% Southwest_Asian 10.56% Northwest_African 5.69% Palaeo_African 0.45%
Population
Mediterranean Farmer37.16%
Anatolian Farmer 23.56%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 20.32%
Middle Eastern Herder 14.55%
East African Pastoralist 3.11%
East Asian Farmer 0.48%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.32%
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.28%
Bantu Farmer 0.20%
Here are mine:
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