MyTrueAncestry Mytrueancestry.com

[TardisBlue]

I'm very pleased with the latest update for my Mom, it perfectly fits her ancestry. As for me, I would have expected SOME Belgae matches, but got none! My top populations haven't changed for a while. And yes, we both also got JP Marat (part Spanish - possibly marrano - part SW French). I match "Louis XVI'" s relic, but my Mom doesn't.

 

[Maciamo]

I'm very pleased with the latest update for my Mom, it perfectly fits her ancestry. As for me, I would have expected SOME Belgae matches, but got none! My top populations haven't changed for a while.

I ran 13 Belgian samples and none of them got Belgae in their top populations! Most get the Franks, Saxons or even Danish Vikings and Visigoths. Three have Celts and Gauls, but no Belgae. Very odd as almost everyone gets a genetic distance between 7 and 8 for individual Belgic samples.

 

[Maciamo]

I can explain myself in Mandarin only.

没问题。 请用中文解释。

 

[Angela]

Mine:

Ancients:

Byzantine + Gallo-Roman (8.744)
Byzantine + Roman (9.342)
Seleucid + Roman (9.892)
Seleucid + Gallo-Roman (10.0)
Seleucid + Byzantine (12.77)
Roman (13.6)
Seleucid (15.26)
Byzantine (16.07)
Gallo-Roman (19.47)


View attachment 12131



Modern

1. Greek (6.885)
2. Kosovar (7.737)
3. Bulgarian (8.965)
4. Albanian_Tosk (9.845)
5. Macedonian (11.75)
6. Bosnian (11.75)
7. Greek_Thessaly (12.19)
8. Romanian (12.46)

If you don't mind my asking, do your "modern" scores make sense to you?

I ask because, like the Eurogenes calculators upon which it is undoubtedly based, no matter what they say, it gives me terrible "modern" scores, the worst I get with any calculator.

It's one of the reasons I don't fully trust the ancient scores they produce all that much either. If they're wrong with moderns, how accurate can the ancient distances be? Then, there's the fact that they so conflict with my scores with the new ancient dodecad calculator.

 

[Regio X]

If you don't mind my asking, do your "modern" scores make sense to you?

I ask because, like the Eurogenes calculators upon which it is undoubtedly based, no matter what they say, it gives me terrible "modern" scores, the worst I get with any calculator.

It's one of the reasons I don't fully trust the ancient scores they produce all that much either. If they're wrong with moderns, how accurate can the ancient distances be? Then, there's the fact that they so conflict with my scores with the new ancient dodecad calculator.

Angela, have you tried the G25 averages? Since you don't have your coordinates (I don't have mine either), you could try to use some sources as targets (for example, Tuscans and Ligurians - either averages or individuals), and see what it shows. What I think a bit strange is that they're not that close to each other in G25 as they are to other Italian pops.

 

[Angela]

Angela, have you tried the G25 averages? Since you don't have your coordinates (I don't have mine either), you could try to use some sources as targets (for example, Tuscans and Ligurians - either averages or individuals), and see what it shows. What I think a bit strange is that they're not that close to each other in G25 as they are to other Italian pops.

I'd be happy to give it a try, if you tell me what the numbers mean, i.e. the "headings" for the columns, and how to compare myself to them. I've never looked at it before.

Ligurians:
Italian_Liguria,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599

Tuscans:
an_Tuscany,0.1186036,0.1487413,0.0136014,-0.0204997,0.0261587,-0.0090546,-0.00047,-0.0013845,0.0074991,0.0238972,-0.0002273,0.0054552,-0.0118631,-0.0045965,-0.0023797,-0.0002917,0.0040332,0.0004815,0.0038463,-0.0023929,-0.0012063,0.0024647,-0.0010436,0.00388,-0.0015885

As I'd heard, he doesn't bother to include an Emilian source; almost as if he doesn't want to make it easy for me, as if I would ever use his tool.

Does he even bother to list the sources for these populations, the data for each individual?

If it's true, as I've also heard, that he only has one source for Liguria, and that one is from Genova, then I wouldn't expect a really close relationship to Toscana, although not a really distant one either.

You know what it's like in Italy. The genetics can be different in different parts of the same province politically. That's how much variation there is in Italy. The greater area around La Spezia was always part of the Lunigiana. Only relatively late in history did the Genovese take it over. That's reflected in the language. Some linguists in La Spezia hold that "Spezzino" and Sarzanese, and the "dialect" spoken in Lerici are not precisely "Ligurian", but rather "languages of transition". Spezzino has been described, if I remember it correctly, as "Emiliano un po' ligurizatto". Lunigianese itself is a "dialect" or" language" of transition, Emiliano influenced by Toscano and Reggiano/Modenese as parts of it changed hands numerous times over history and also by Ligurian by influences from the coastal areas. So, you have a situation where the further north you go in the Lunigiana the more Emilian the dialect, west of the Magra River and down near Sarzana and the border with "political" Liguria, themore Ligurian influence, and east of the Magra and into the Apuan Alps, the more Tuscan the influence.

The people are equally mixed and it started far earlier in time than even the genetics of the grandparents of the Spezzini would show. The surnames reflect it all. Many of the ones in eastern Liguria are found as or more frequently in Emilia and northwestern Toscana than in, say, Savona.

I guess that's a long way of saying that I know the people from these areas might not be "really" close to, say, a sample from Genova, or a sample from Parma, or a sample from Siena, much less a person with ancestry from all three parts of the larger area, but some calculators do seem to do a better job them others.

This sort of explains what I'm talking about, and why I don't quite "fit" the standard references, given I have two Emilian grandparents (but from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano), one from the hinterland of La Spezia (but still technically Liguria, and west of the Magra), and one from the "middle" Lunigiana.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunezia

Too much information, but I know you'll "get" it.

 

[Carlos]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Karlos _scaled
Distance: 4.5454% / 0.04545366[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"] 100.0 [/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"] Italian_Liguria [/TD]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Karlos_scaled[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]0.04545366[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDA00, align: right"]0.05726834[/TD]
[TD]an_Tuscany
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Posting coordinates is like adding rice to pigeons.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Angela, have you tried the G25 averages? Since you don't have your coordinates (I don't have mine either), you could try to use some sources as targets (for example, Tuscans and Ligurians - either averages or individuals), and see what it shows. What I think a bit strange is that they're not that close to each other in G25 as they are to other Italian pops.

Regio X: I read your post to Angela. I don't have my G25 coordinates either but I did use the Sicilian average and individual coordinates as the "Target" and ran the distances. The average Coordinates are pretty clear, Sicilian_West an Sicilian_East but do you know where the respective individual samples come from. For example, Sicilian_West Average is broken up to Sicilian_West10H, Sicilian_West4H and Sicilian_West7H while Sicilian_East Average is broken up to Siciian_East8H, Sicilian_East5H and Sicilian_East2H.

Thanks in advance, PT

 

[bigsnake49]

If you don't mind my asking, do your "modern" scores make sense to you?

I ask because, like the Eurogenes calculators upon which it is undoubtedly based, no matter what they say, it gives me terrible "modern" scores, the worst I get with any calculator.

It's one of the reasons I don't fully trust the ancient scores they produce all that much either. If they're wrong with moderns, how accurate can the ancient distances be? Then, there's the fact that they so conflict with my scores with the new ancient dodecad calculator.

It's just for fun. For me it's kind of strange that my top score is Greek but Greek_Thessaly is at the bottom just above Romanian and below Bosnian. My own gut feeling is that I am a mix between Greek and local Thracian. In autosomal tests I come out 70% Greek and 30% Eastern Europe with no other info on Eastern Europe admix. I have looked at my matches in different commercial services and their admix is approximately the same as mine on both sides of my family. I should not have been surprised since the two villages my grandparents came from were barely 15km apart.

Isn't the modern calculator they (mytrueancestry.com) use based on Eurogenes K15? Or is it K13? See if you can compare your mytrueancestry.com with the vahaduo k13 or K15.

 

[Regio X]

I'd be happy to give it a try, if you tell me what the numbers mean, i.e. the "headings" for the columns, and how to compare myself to them. I've never looked at it before.

Ligurians:
Italian_Liguria,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599

Tuscans:
an_Tuscany,0.1186036,0.1487413,0.0136014,-0.0204997,0.0261587,-0.0090546,-0.00047,-0.0013845,0.0074991,0.0238972,-0.0002273,0.0054552,-0.0118631,-0.0045965,-0.0023797,-0.0002917,0.0040332,0.0004815,0.0038463,-0.0023929,-0.0012063,0.0024647,-0.0010436,0.00388,-0.0015885

As I'd heard, he doesn't bother to include an Emilian source; almost as if he doesn't want to make it easy for me, as if I would ever use his tool.

Does he even bother to list the sources for these populations, the data for each individual?

If it's true, as I've also heard, that he only has one source for Liguria, and that one is from Genova, then I wouldn't expect a really close relationship to Toscana, although not a really distant one either.

You know what it's like in Italy. The genetics can be different in different parts of the same province politically. That's how much variation there is in Italy. The greater area around La Spezia was always part of the Lunigiana. Only relatively late in history did the Genovese take it over. That's reflected in the language. Some linguists in La Spezia hold that "Spezzino" and Sarzanese, and the "dialect" spoken in Lerici are not precisely "Ligurian", but rather "languages of transition". Spezzino has been described, if I remember it correctly, as "Emiliano un po' ligurizatto". Lunigianese itself is a "dialect" or" language" of transition, Emiliano influenced by Toscano and Reggiano/Modenese as parts of it changed hands numerous times over history and also by Ligurian by influences from the coastal areas. So, you have a situation where the further north you go in the Lunigiana the more Emilian the dialect, west of the Magra River and down near Sarzana and the border with "political" Liguria, themore Ligurian influence, and east of the Magra and into the Apuan Alps, the more Tuscan the influence.

The people are equally mixed and it started far earlier in time than even the genetics of the grandparents of the Spezzini would show. The surnames reflect it all. Many of the ones in eastern Liguria are found as or more frequently in Emilia and northwestern Toscana than in, say, Savona.

I guess that's a long way of saying that I know the people from these areas might not be "really" close to, say, a sample from Genova, or a sample from Parma, or a sample from Siena, much less a person with ancestry from all three parts of the larger area, but some calculators do seem to do a better job them others.

This sort of explains what I'm talking about, and why I don't quite "fit" the standard references, given I have two Emilian grandparents (but from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano), one from the hinterland of La Spezia (but still technically Liguria, and west of the Magra), and one from the "middle" Lunigiana.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunezia

Too much information, but I know you'll "get" it.

The coordinates per se don't matter that much.

Here is the idea. Firstly you open the modern averages:
http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm

You keep the sources as they are. No need to change them. In the target, you can either inform the average of, say, Tuscany, which is in the same link (just copy the line for Tuscany in the source and paste it in the target), or you can inform as targets the Tuscan individuals separately, in http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled.htm; also copying them from the sources and pasting them as target (pasting in the first page you opened - that one with averages as sources). Feel free to add as target any other coordinate you want.

Once you have done that, you can go to "Distance" and click on "Run All". It works as an Oracle.

This is the associated PCA (there is a zoom, and you can also filter by area; I selected here "Europe 1"): https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1

But you're right. Liguria has only one sample associated (I've no idea on where it comes from), as you can see in the second link I posted above, which possibly explains the relatively high distance to Tuscany compared to other areas.

And thanks for your explanations. Very interesting! Your area seems really peculiar, with mountains and two other regions bordering, with their own peculiarities, but also a bit heterogeneous themselves. Do you generally plot closer to Emilians, Tuscans or Ligurians then?
Btw, my father's paternal grandmother was born in Mantova province, Lombardy. Not sure it makes any difference in these tools. Anyway, I also have ancestry from different areas inside Veneto, and it's possible they would tend to plot differently. Not sure.

@Palermo
Sorry. I don't know where the samples come from.

 

[bigsnake49]

I'd be happy to give it a try, if you tell me what the numbers mean, i.e. the "headings" for the columns, and how to compare myself to them. I've never looked at it before.

Ligurians:
Italian_Liguria,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599

Tuscans:
an_Tuscany,0.1186036,0.1487413,0.0136014,-0.0204997,0.0261587,-0.0090546,-0.00047,-0.0013845,0.0074991,0.0238972,-0.0002273,0.0054552,-0.0118631,-0.0045965,-0.0023797,-0.0002917,0.0040332,0.0004815,0.0038463,-0.0023929,-0.0012063,0.0024647,-0.0010436,0.00388,-0.0015885

As I'd heard, he doesn't bother to include an Emilian source; almost as if he doesn't want to make it easy for me, as if I would ever use his tool.

Does he even bother to list the sources for these populations, the data for each individual?

If it's true, as I've also heard, that he only has one source for Liguria, and that one is from Genova, then I wouldn't expect a really close relationship to Toscana, although not a really distant one either.

You know what it's like in Italy. The genetics can be different in different parts of the same province politically. That's how much variation there is in Italy. The greater area around La Spezia was always part of the Lunigiana. Only relatively late in history did the Genovese take it over. That's reflected in the language. Some linguists in La Spezia hold that "Spezzino" and Sarzanese, and the "dialect" spoken in Lerici are not precisely "Ligurian", but rather "languages of transition". Spezzino has been described, if I remember it correctly, as "Emiliano un po' ligurizatto". Lunigianese itself is a "dialect" or" language" of transition, Emiliano influenced by Toscano and Reggiano/Modenese as parts of it changed hands numerous times over history and also by Ligurian by influences from the coastal areas. So, you have a situation where the further north you go in the Lunigiana the more Emilian the dialect, west of the Magra River and down near Sarzana and the border with "political" Liguria, themore Ligurian influence, and east of the Magra and into the Apuan Alps, the more Tuscan the influence.

The people are equally mixed and it started far earlier in time than even the genetics of the grandparents of the Spezzini would show. The surnames reflect it all. Many of the ones in eastern Liguria are found as or more frequently in Emilia and northwestern Toscana than in, say, Savona.

I guess that's a long way of saying that I know the people from these areas might not be "really" close to, say, a sample from Genova, or a sample from Parma, or a sample from Siena, much less a person with ancestry from all three parts of the larger area, but some calculators do seem to do a better job them others.

This sort of explains what I'm talking about, and why I don't quite "fit" the standard references, given I have two Emilian grandparents (but from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano), one from the hinterland of La Spezia (but still technically Liguria, and west of the Magra), and one from the "middle" Lunigiana.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunezia

Too much information, but I know you'll "get" it.

Sometimes, when people come from two sides of a mountain range they tend to have different genetics. Just remember that back then transportation was a much more daunting endeavor particularly for mountain people. It's one thing to go from the high mountains to the foothills and completely another to go to the other side of the mountain range. Over the years there is a lot of genetic and linguistic drift.

 

[Salento]

... so, if for example I clearly match a modern population ... let’s say from dod K12b, I could theoretically borrow the G25 coordinates of the same population and get my General G25 Results.

... that’s cheating, lol :grin: and ... not my real results!

... but anyway:

my real top dod K12 modern results
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]S_dod_k12[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6BFF00, align: right"]3.13945983[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A3FF00, align: right"]4.78208110[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Average Modern Apulia G25 coordinates:

Puglia Scaled G25:

Italian_Apulia,0.1107119,0.1482673,-0.0037713,-0.0401381,0.0158388,-0.0151159,-0.0009557,-0.0016153,0.0027951,0.0206898,-0.0002273,0.0038765,-0.0064717,0.0011929,-0.0081071,-0.0038982,0.0016691,0.0005997,0.0027485,-0.0051524,-0.0038098,0.0019619,0.0017584,0.0014379,-0.0005667

Puglia Unscaled G25:

Italian_Apulia,0.0097267,0.0146,-0.001,-0.0124267,0.0051467,-0.00542,-0.0004067,-7e-04,0.0013667,0.0113533,-0.00014,0.0025867,-0.0043533,0.0008667,-0.0059733,-0.00294,0.00128,0.0004733,0.0021867,-0.00412,-0.0030533,0.0015867,0.0014267,0.0011933,-0.0004733

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Regio_X:

Ok, thanks for the reply.

Cheers

 

[Salento]

Experiment:

G25-Apulia-sample ... K36-like G25 Model vs my K36 similarity map

Almost: the Apulia-G25 gets one of my Top 2 places, (Lazio).

... somewhat similar, I think.

my map:

 

[Angela]

The coordinates per se don't matter that much.

Here is the idea. Firstly you open the modern averages:
http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm

You keep the sources as they are. No need to change them. In the target, you can either inform the average of, say, Tuscany, which is in the same link (just copy the line for Tuscany in the source and paste it in the target), or you can inform as targets the Tuscan individuals separately, in http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled.htm; also copying them from the sources and pasting them as target (pasting in the first page you opened - that one with averages as sources). Feel free to add as target any other coordinate you want.

Once you have done that, you can go to "Distance" and click on "Run All". It works as an Oracle.

This is the associated PCA (there is a zoom, and you can also filter by area; I selected here "Europe 1"): https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1

But you're right. Liguria has only one sample associated (I've no idea on where it comes from), as you can see in the second link I posted above, which possibly explains the relatively high distance to Tuscany compared to other areas.

And thanks for your explanations. Very interesting! Your area seems really peculiar, with mountains and two other regions bordering, with their own peculiarities, but also a bit heterogeneous themselves. Do you generally plot closer to Emilians, Tuscans or Ligurians then?
Btw, my father's paternal grandmother was born in Mantova province, Lombardy. Not sure it makes any difference in these tools. Anyway, I also have ancestry from different areas inside Veneto, and it's possible they would tend to plot differently. Not sure.

@Palermo
Sorry. I don't know where the samples come from.

La Lunigiana e' al confino di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. However, La Spezia is only partially of Liguria, imo. Other people say it's a region al confine di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. You can see it by the influence of languages, the food (Ours is so good because we're influenced by all three. ) even in the houses, the artifacts, and perhaps even the phenotype of the people.

What has surprised me about the genetics is that I thought the two sets of mountains, as you say, and even the river, which created a bit of a language border (it was even the administrative border of the Romans) would have created a bigger "break" in the genetics, rather than the cline which I think exists. Whether that was always the case because of the ancient road through the mountains from the Parmense to the sea whether for salt, wheat, or pilgrims, or became much more predominant in more recent times, say, in the 1800s, I don't know. There's even a difference in physical appearance, with the upper Lunigiana having one of the higher rates of blondism in Italy, and the coast darker.

For my father's villages I tend to think they were always different, different even from the residents of Parma itself; drift alone would account for it. Paved roads only went in during the 1920s. (The first settlements were in 900-1000 AD) Before that it was by mule track, and the Bishop's representatives showing up every decade or so in the larger administrative villages, so how much admixing could there have been? Cavalli Sforza had a reason for choosing those villages as the source for his book on genetic drift in Italy.

Anyway, I took a look at the samples. Since I can't input my own coordinates, having never paid Eurogenes for them, it's not going to tell me much. Plus, I think all he did was use the "Sizzi" samples that are at Vahaduo, where I come out Corsican and then equidistant to all three provinces, so let's say I'm not impressed by the representativeness of the samples.

These are my results from one of the Dodecad at gedmatch:

Population (source)

TSI30 (Metspalu)

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]3.45[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Tuscan (HGDP)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.11[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]North_Italian (HGDP)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.58[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]N_Italian (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.74[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]O_Italian (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.96[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]C_Italian (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.13[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Baleares (1000Genomes)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.18[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Greek (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.98[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Sicilian (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.08[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Galicia (1000Genomes)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.2[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.32[/TD]

TSI is from north of Firenze, yes?

This is MDLP-I'm pretty sure the "Piedmont" source is actually the set of samples from the mountainous border land between Piemonte, Lombardia, and Emilia from villages which became part of Piemonte very late, and speak mountain Ligurian dialects and even have Ligure in all the names of the villages. It might approximate mountain Emilians. It's impossible for me to say unless someone from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano near the Parco dei Cento ran this gedmatch calculator. I don't know which Tuscan source he used. Probably not TSI?

Population (source)

Italian_Piedmont ( )

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5.28[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_Bergamo ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.95[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_Tuscan ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.33[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_North ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.82[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_Abruzzo ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.68[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Sicilian_Trapani ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.63[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.21[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]German-Volga ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.35[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]South_German ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.61[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Maltese ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.73[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Sicilian_West ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.24[/TD]

This is from Vahaduo:
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #72FF00, align: right"]3.35070082[/TD]
[TD]France_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C8FF00, align: right"]5.88253772[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CEFF00, align: right"]6.05046701[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCFF00, align: right"]6.46549999[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FCFF00, align: right"]7.41275253[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: right"]7.49533572[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBF00, align: right"]9.37771817[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBE00, align: right"]9.40447500[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB000, align: right"]9.81684050[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9C00, align: right"]10.41448482[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7800, align: right"]11.46905892[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4B00, align: right"]12.79029632[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4600, align: right"]12.93960726[/TD]
[TD]Italy_FriuliVG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1700, align: right"]14.31793630[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0C00, align: right"]14.65967257[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_North[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0A00, align: right"]14.71938139[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0900, align: right"]14.73174123[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0018, align: right"]15.70859319[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF003A, align: right"]16.70817483[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004F, align: right"]17.33728895[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0053, align: right"]17.44167136[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005A, align: right"]17.66150517[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0068, align: right"]18.04604943[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0073, align: right"]18.38794442[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0077, align: right"]18.48941589[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It doesn't seem possible that's the same Piemonte sample that was used above. Probably other "Sizzi" stuff from more western Piemonte?

I seem to be equally distant from all three provinces: Emilia, Toscana, and Liguria. I'm an orphan.

I'm ignoring the Corsica number. There are no Corsicans in my ancestry. Maybe whoever is is (one sample again) is from a part of Corsica heavily settled by Tuscans and Ligurians, or he has some recent ancestry from those areas and/or France. The guy who collected it would have to investigate.

For what it's worth there was a PCA posted with all these samples, I think by you, and if I remember correctly, I was closest to the most northern Of the Tuscan samples, and the most southern of the Bergamo samples, which of course makes sense.

You can see why my distance of 2 or 3 to some ancient samples from Pannonia and Piemonte are so surprising to me.

 

[bigsnake49]

Duplicate, delete.

 

[bigsnake49]

La Lunigiana e' al confino di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. However, La Spezia is only partially of Liguria, imo. Other people say it's a region al confine di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. You can see it by the influence of languages, the food (Ours is so good because we're influenced by all three. ) even in the houses, the artifacts, and perhaps even the phenotype of the people.

What has surprised me about the genetics is that I thought the two sets of mountains, as you say, and even the river, which created a bit of a language border (it was even the administrative border of the Romans) would have created a bigger "break" in the genetics, rather than the cline which I think exists. Whether that was always the case because of the ancient road through the mountains from the Parmense to the sea whether for salt, wheat, or pilgrims, or became much more predominant in more recent times, say, in the 1800s, I don't know. There's even a difference in physical appearance, with the upper Lunigiana having one of the higher rates of blondism in Italy, and the coast darker.

For my father's villages I tend to think they were always different, different even from the residents of Parma itself; drift alone would account for it. Paved roads only went in during the 1920s. (The first settlements were in 900-1000 AD) Before that it was by mule track, and the Bishop's representatives showing up every decade or so in the larger administrative villages, so how much admixing could there have been? Cavalli Sforza had a reason for choosing those villages as the source for his book on genetic drift in Italy.

Anyway, I took a look at the samples. Since I can't input my own coordinates, having never paid Eurogenes for them, it's not going to tell me much. Plus, I think all he did was use the "Sizzi" samples that are at Vahaduo, where I come out Corsican and then equidistant to all three provinces, so let's say I'm not impressed by the representativeness of the samples.

These are my results from one of the Dodecad at gedmatch:

Population (source)

TSI30 (Metspalu)

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]3.45[/TD]

[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Tuscan (HGDP)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.11[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]North_Italian (HGDP)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.58[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]N_Italian (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.74[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]O_Italian (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.96[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]C_Italian (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.13[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Baleares (1000Genomes)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.18[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Greek (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.98[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Sicilian (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.08[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Galicia (1000Genomes)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.2[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.32[/TD]

TSI is from north of Firenze, yes?

This is MDLP-I'm pretty sure the "Piedmont" source is actually the set of samples from the mountainous border land between Piemonte, Lombardia, and Emilia from villages which became part of Piemonte very late, and speak mountain Ligurian dialects and even have Ligure in all the names of the villages. It might approximate mountain Emilians. It's impossible for me to say unless someone from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano near the Parco dei Cento ran this gedmatch calculator. I don't know which Tuscan source he used. Probably not TSI?

Population (source)

Italian_Piedmont ( )

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5.28[/TD]

[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_Bergamo ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.95[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_Tuscan ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.33[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_North ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.82[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_Abruzzo ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.68[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Sicilian_Trapani ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.63[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.21[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]German-Volga ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.35[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]South_German ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.61[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Maltese ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.73[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Sicilian_West ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.24[/TD]

This is from Vahaduo:
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #72FF00, align: right"]3.35070082[/TD]
[TD]France_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C8FF00, align: right"]5.88253772[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CEFF00, align: right"]6.05046701[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCFF00, align: right"]6.46549999[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FCFF00, align: right"]7.41275253[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: right"]7.49533572[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBF00, align: right"]9.37771817[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBE00, align: right"]9.40447500[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB000, align: right"]9.81684050[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9C00, align: right"]10.41448482[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7800, align: right"]11.46905892[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4B00, align: right"]12.79029632[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4600, align: right"]12.93960726[/TD]
[TD]Italy_FriuliVG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1700, align: right"]14.31793630[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0C00, align: right"]14.65967257[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_North[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0A00, align: right"]14.71938139[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0900, align: right"]14.73174123[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0018, align: right"]15.70859319[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF003A, align: right"]16.70817483[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004F, align: right"]17.33728895[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0053, align: right"]17.44167136[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005A, align: right"]17.66150517[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0068, align: right"]18.04604943[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0073, align: right"]18.38794442[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0077, align: right"]18.48941589[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It doesn't seem possible that's the same Piemonte sample that was used above. Probably other "Sizzi" stuff from more western Piemonte?

I seem to be equally distant from all three provinces: Emilia, Toscana, and Liguria. I'm an orphan.

I'm ignoring the Corsica number. There are no Corsicans in my ancestry. Maybe whoever is is (one sample again) is from a part of Corsica heavily settled by Tuscans and Ligurians, or he has some recent ancestry from those areas and/or France. The guy who collected it would have to investigate.

For what it's worth there was a PCA posted with all these samples, I think by you, and if I remember correctly, I was closest to the most northern Of the Tuscan samples, and the most southern of the Bergamo samples, which of course makes sense.

You can see why my distance of 2 or 3 to some ancient samples from Pannonia and Piemonte are so surprising to me.

I know the feeling about being an orphan Angela. Depending on the samples they have you could be close to different populations. Probably modeled better as a mix of them.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Salento: Have you run the individual samples yet and compared it to your Dodecad 12B modern. I think there are like 15 different samples from Apulia in the G25 Individual. I don't know which regions of Puglia they are from. There are 6 samples from Sicily in that same spreadsheet, and again, not sure where they are from other than 3 of West and 3 are East.

 

[Angela]

I know the feeling about being an orphan Angela. Depending on the samples they have you could be close to different populations.

The funny part is that if I put the place where I was born on a map, it's close to being just about equidistant from Parma, Genova, and someplace northwest of Florence.

 

[Salento]

Salento: Have you run the individual samples yet and compared it to your Dodecad 12B modern. I think there are like 15 different samples from Apulia in the G25 Individual. I don't know which regions of Puglia they are from. There are 6 samples from Sicily in that same spreadsheet, and again, not sure where they are from other than 3 of West and 3 are East.

... not yet, I just ran the Modern Average, ...

I thought my K36 similarities map was kind of weird, but when compared with the G25 Average sample, it’s actually not that different.