Neolithic Celts and Germanics

Twilight

Twilight

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Clinton, Washington
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15/32 British, 5/32 German, 9/64 Irish, 1/8 Scots Gaelic, 5/64 French, 1/32 Welsh
Y-DNA haplogroup
R1b-U152-Z56-BY3957
mtDNA haplogroup
J1c7a
Hello there, I've been roughly mapping my genetic profile and I was wondering. Does anyone know how the Neolithic cultures bearing E1b1b, G2a, J, T and (I2?) made it into Celtic and Germanic territory and what their names are or is the answer still a mystery? Thanks :)
 
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1. I2 is a European haplogroup, in fact virtually all I is European (other than ancient pre-I mutations such as IJK or very basal forms of I from the Middle East possibly.) the other Neolithic markers made it to Celtic Germany by reaching the Mediterranean world first probably via Anatolia or a similar source. From here, as the gene flow reflects, south-eastern Europeans would be affected much more by the Neolithic genetic influence. In much smaller numbers/%, some of them eventually arrived in Celtic/Germanic continental Europe but as we can see, up to 40-45% of Greek and italian male lineages are from the Neolithic. These frequencies are maybe like 10-20% of Germans, have Neolithic influence, maybe less, so there's an obvious European ''difference'' in who is more largely affected by the arrival of middle eastern agriculturalists.
 
The Y DNA I2a2 in mainly central Europe, I2a1a in western, I2a1b in eastern were all probably at least partly in those areas before farming spread mainly 9,000-6,000ybp. THey spread E1b1b V13(probably also some of its father E1b1b M73 and other E1b's), G2a, and probably at least some J1 and J2 i dont know all the subclades. Were brought to Europe by farmers. I dont know what u mean how they made into Celtic and Germanic territory what is so hard to believe. The only people in their way were Mesolithic hunter gathers who it seems they conquered and mixed with. Celtic and Germanic languages culture and whatever began in the bronze age way after these farmers spread.

Celtic and Germanic dont define genetics it is true that there is some genetics involved deiftley y DNA. But they are just a mix of ethnic groups who lived before them and German speaking people in Norway and alot different genetically than German speakers in Austria. U should look click on Germanic Italo Celts and Eupedia R1b page. Indo European language itself began round Russia Ukraine and north mid east 7,000-8,000ybp. THe R1a1a1 M417 mainly in INdo Iranian(R1a1a1b2 Z93) Balto Slavic(R1a1a1b1 Z283)languages spread out of the traditional areas of the Kurgen hypothesis Ukriane and Russia. But Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 grandfather R1b1a2a L23 is around 20-30% in Antolia, Caucus, and Iraq and R1b in Europe period at some point came out of that area of the mid east either R1b1a2a L23 or its fathers. So Germanic Italo celtic Y DNa does not exactley fit with the Kurgen theory. But there is a connection with 6,000 year old Kurgen in Caucus and the Maykop culture.

The proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers made it to Germany about 5,000ybp and had formed into R1b1a2a1a L11. From there they spread mixing with native Bell Beaker culture and spreading into south Scandnavia and Netherlands as proto germanic speakers and R1b1a2a1a1 s21 and into central Europe with Unetice culture and R1b1a2a1a2 S116 and proto Italo Celtic languages then kept spreading. from 2,000bc-1,000ybp almost all of western Europe was conquered by Italo Celts and more than 50% of the native Paternal lineages replaced by Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 S116. It is incredible how fast the Germanic Italo Celts spread acroos western Europe. FTDNA actulley agrees with what i am saying so u dont think i am conpsiricy theoryisy
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=results

R1b1a2a1a l11 spread acroos western Europe extremely quickly.
 
Excuse me, but we are kind of getting off subject here. With all do respect, this subject has nothing to do with the Indo-european cultures and more to do with what the archeologests call these farmers in the British Isles.
 
Twilight said:
Excuse me, but we are kind of getting off subject here. With all do respect, this subject has nothing to do with the Indo-european cultures and more to do with what the archeologests call these farmers in the British Isles.
Click to expand...

When looking at Y DNa in the British isles take out all the ones of Germanic origin and don't really exist in Ireland. R1b1a2a1a2c L21 which is a Italo Celtic subclade estimated to be about 4,000 years old comdined with other Italo Celtic R1b but vast vast majority bi=eing this subclade would be about 80-95% in the British isles before Germanic invasions 400-600ad. Also Y DNa I2a2a M223 which is most popular in central Europe and shows signs of being partly spread by Germanic and Celtic tribes but is from the pre Germanic Italo Celtic Y DNa if central Europe. has its own subclade in the British isles estimated to be about 3,000 year sold it is I2a2a1 it also was probably brought over by Celts. Then I2a1b3 L161.1 which is estimated to be about 6,600 years old and is found throught out central europe south Scandnavia and central eastern Europe but is highest in the British isles but raelly gets up to 1%. It is probably Neolithic pre Celtic same with most G2a and E1b1b v13 but not J2 maybe J1.

The Celts almost completely exterminated the natives y DNa deifntley by conquest so Celtic migration to the British isles was major it was not random and undirect like historians have said before all this DNA stuff. The Neolithic culture dominate because they were more advanced and had better chances of surviving than Mesolithic hunter gathers what else do u want.
 
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25163-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ancient-civilizations It says in here that the Italo-celto-Germanics only mixed with I2b when they reached the british isles unless Maciamo updated this idea. are you sure I2b is a farming culture :/? However it seems like the Romans mixed with the britons after all with the Italics absorbing the Terrimare and Etruscans exept J1 populations appears to have withered out at the French english Channel.
 
I2b is now called I2a2 the part that never changes is P224 that is what u should remember. No They would have inter married with I2a2 when first arriving in central Europe 5,000ybp i am talking about Germanic Italo Celts. And I2a2 P224 originated in pre Neolithic Europe probably central and later mixed with G2a, E1b1b V13, and maybe also J1, J2, and T farmers.

There is not alot of evidence Romans mixed with Britons at least romans from Rome or Italy. excet maybe J2 which in Europe looks pretty close to the Roman empire and is more popular in southern Britian. There was some that thought dominte Y DNa haplogroup in northern and central Italy R1b1a2a1a2b S28 was fro Romans but now we know Hallstat and Urnfield Celts had settled there and they also are dominated by the same haplogroup. U can read the Germanic Italo Celts link to learn more about that. For some reason Romans did not spread their main Y DNa haplogroup it seems mid eastern J2 spread with Rome at least a little bit which i would guess was not originally because of Romans.
 
Fire Haired said:
The Y DNA I2a2 in mainly central Europe, I2a1a in western, I2a1b in eastern were all probably at least partly in those areas before farming spread mainly 9,000-6,000ybp. THey spread E1b1b V13(probably also some of its father E1b1b M73 and other E1b's), G2a, and probably at least some J1 and J2 i dont know all the subclades. Were brought to Europe by farmers. I dont know what u mean how they made into Celtic and Germanic territory what is so hard to believe. The only people in their way were Mesolithic hunter gathers who it seems they conquered and mixed with. Celtic and Germanic languages culture and whatever began in the bronze age way after these farmers spread.

.
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I never heard of this term celto-italic-germanic , do you have a link...I searched everywhere for it. I doubt it existed as the celts and germans ( in central europe) could only have merged after the fall of the roman Empire. You must mean the merger in Belgium lands.

Again , if you say I2a2 is central european, then it surely could never been Germanic, because the germans where not in central Europe anytime in the bronze-age or early iron age. So, would this central european I2a2be either celtic, gallic, raetic, venetic or illyric...with maybe a touch of Dacian?
 
Fire Haired said:
I2b is now called I2a2 the part that never changes is P224 that is what u should remember. No They would have inter married with I2a2 when first arriving in central Europe 5,000ybp i am talking about Germanic Italo Celts. And I2a2 P224 originated in pre Neolithic Europe probably central and later mixed with G2a, E1b1b V13, and maybe also J1, J2, and T farmers.

Yeah, according to the link I posted earlier, the Gaulish Celts mixed with the Terrimare people who were I2a1&2 and E before celtification in france. The Etruscans who were J1/2 & also E but if there is another way besides Romans pushing these cultures besides J1 into Briton, I'd love to hear it. ;)
Click to expand...
 
Sile said:
I never heard of this term celto-italic-germanic , do you have a link...I searched everywhere for it. I doubt it existed as the celts and germans ( in central europe) could only have merged after the fall of the roman Empire. You must mean the merger in Belgium lands.

Again , if you say I2a2 is central european, then it surely could never been Germanic, because the germans where not in central Europe anytime in the bronze-age or early iron age. So, would this central european I2a2be either celtic, gallic, raetic, venetic or illyric...with maybe a touch of Dacian?
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Here you go, it's a quote from Maciamo from a while back ;)
Romans, Celts and Germans

Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b1b2 stock. They split north of the Alps.

The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a, G2a and E-V13. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2b people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of aboriginal haplogroup I.

Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. The Iberian and Gaulish groups mixed with I2b, I2a and E people, the Alpine with I2b and E, and the Brythonic just with I2b people.

It is likely that the language of the aboriginal Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from Palestine and brought haplogroups J1, J2 and E with them. The Greeks in Italy were Doric and brought J2, E, G2a and probably more R1b (see above). The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a.
Source: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25163-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ancient-civilizations
And the map http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml
 
Twilight said:
Here you go, it's a quote from Maciamo from a while back ;)
Romans, Celts and Germans

Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b1b2 stock. They split north of the Alps.

The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a, G2a and E-V13. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2b people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of aboriginal haplogroup I.

Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. The Iberian and Gaulish groups mixed with I2b, I2a and E people, the Alpine with I2b and E, and the Brythonic just with I2b people.

It is likely that the language of the aboriginal Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from Palestine and brought haplogroups J1, J2 and E with them. The Greeks in Italy were Doric and brought J2, E, G2a and probably more R1b (see above). The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a.
Source: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25163-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ancient-civilizations
And the map http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml
Click to expand...

Does he need to rewrite the paper as its found the Etruscans descended from modern South Germany ( I have already linked the paper)?. They ( Etruscans) could not have brought J ( 1 or 2 ) into Italy unless J was already in the alps. Most likely it was G2* and either R1b* and I2*

Is he also saying that the Germanic moved north to Denmark and beyond and did not originate in jutland, north germany, scandinavian lands?
 
The Etruscans came from Germany? What kind of nonsense is that?
 
What kind of nonsense is what?
 
Perhaps J and E hijacked the local woman?
 
its a not too informative evidence but as a whole female populations moved less than male one at those times adn they mixed one to the others more on the geographic neighbouring model (slow osmose) than on the "forefronts" model (fast and far moves)
 
Etruscans were maybe a male foreign elite so... but we have also the second language (non-IE) of Rhetia, don't forget...
but Alinei porposed a link in central Europe between Etruscans and Hungarians, estimating their languages presented some links with a kind of proto-turkic !!! (for him, they would be autochtonous people, at least partly: Alinei is the supporter of every kind of old presence and autochtony of every sort of ethny and language... nobody moved, for him, almost!)
I remain very prudent here... but that Urnfields could be AT FIRST non IE people is making its way in my mind, waiting more data
 
"As for the Etruscans’ origins, ancient DNA is of little use, because pre-Etruscan dwellers of Central Italy, of the Villanovan culture, cremated their dead [1], and hence their genetic features are unknown"

Thats the key note from the study;
And the pre-Etruscan dwellers of Central Italy, of the Villanovan culture were none other than the Indo-European Umbrians + remnant pop. of the Neolithic; And app. thats the most important part of the maternal lineage of the Etruscan Civilization;

Anybody who knows Classical History ancient Greek and Roman scholars and Archaeology knows it already;
 
Nobody1 said:
"As for the Etruscans’ origins, ancient DNA is of little use, because pre-Etruscan dwellers of Central Italy, of the Villanovan culture, cremated their dead [1], and hence their genetic features are unknown"

Thats the key note from the study;
And the pre-Etruscan dwellers of Central Italy, of the Villanovan culture were none other than the Indo-European Umbrians + remnant pop. of the Neolithic; And app. thats the most important part of the maternal lineage of the Etruscan Civilization;

Anybody who knows Classical History ancient Greek and Roman scholars and Archaeology knows it already;
Click to expand...

good reply at first sight - I cannot be sure of anything, but apparently a study is pretending having examined mt DNA from Etruscans !?! SO Etruscans did not cremate their dead people, or if they did, is it possible to analyse some only partially cremated bodies? I confess my ignorance about these details... if ture for Etruscans, this last remark applies to previous incinerating peoples ... I red nevertheless that cremation in ancient times was very often incomplete -
good afternoon
 
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