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Neolithic Greek and Anatolian genomes.

So is this the ultimate evidence that at least some mtdna K linages are linked with WHG? That would explain why MENAs who havs them, like Levantines, have some WHG.
 
Sile said:
the question was raised by T project in regards to the ancient T1a ( LBK_EN ) found in Karsdorf central germany
autosomal ancestral components has been point to be around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian but If the WHG Loschbour is admixed with a Basal Eurasian group then the percentages for KAR6a should be around 34% WHG and 66% Basal Eurasian.

Its an ongoing discussion in another forum.

why do you never answer questions I give you , but you EXPECT answers from me ...........is this an administrators rights?I still await my data you requested and sent for your answers, I think its over a year or more now...........will I ever see this promised reply???
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Is that because in some ADMIXTURE runs K=20 Loschbour has EEF admixture? Because I have a hunch that it's noise, caused by the way ADMIXTURE tries to separate core populations and admixted ones.
 
Angela said:
I think he may have meant that the border between the WHG and the genetically "Anatolian farmer/EEF like" hunter-gatherers of Greece (if it turns out that Mesolithic hunter gatherers similar to the farmers genetically had indeed moved into Greece before the "invention" of farming and animal domestication) was probably north and west of Greece.

That may be true, but as I've speculated before, perhaps it went up along the Adriatic, and perhaps it extended further to the west into Italy as well.

Ed. At any rate, this doesn't mean that the Neolithic didn't come to Europe with farmers from the Near East. It just means that it's possible some of their cousins had arrived before them.
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Kostenki14 has affinity with the non-WHG part of EEF:

Bichon Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0065 -0.877 309406
Iberia_Mesolithic Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0284 -3.942 396775
Loschbour Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0215 -3.029 439854
Hungary_HG Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0045 -0.633 351009

Middle Neolithic Iberians have far more WHG than Oetzi.

I have a hunch that a small part of EEF actually is decendant from K14, and that the alleged Basal Eurasian admixture in K14 is actually not admixture in K14, but admixture in Anatolians from K14, which was eliminated by drift in other decendants of K14 due to isolation of LGM. I'm still thinking of the D-stat which could separate that, though.

EDIT: The difference in those D-stats between Bichon (13k yo) and Iberian_mesolithic subtracted from K14 on the one end and Losch and KO1 subtracted from K14 on the other end puzzles me very much. The CB13 paper already found out that KO1 like type WHG is the most likely candidate for WHG admixture in EEF. But Loschbour is not, as is clearly shown in that paper. The only thing that I can think of is that La Brana is far older than currently is mentioned - Misdated somehow - and some shared drift by the newer ones is also shared by the EEF part. But that would still be very strange.
 
It is a damn shame that we only have the mtDNA of those HG's. This way we can't correlate the mtDNA with a component.
 
What I find particularly interesting in this study is the absence of mt-haplogroup H, apart from one H5 sample. I have long argued that most H subclades were native to Europe (except H2, H5, H7, H13 and H20, which are Near Eastern in origin). Most people seem to have been convinced that H1, for instance, came with Neolithic farmers, simply because it hasn't been found in Mesolithic Europeans samples so far but suddenly pops up in Neolithic samples. Despite that evidence I continued to be skeptical and argued that H1 originated in southern Europe and was among the first lineages assimilated by Neolithic farmers and brought further north. The Anatolian data supports my hypothesis.

As for the Mesolithic Greek K1c, I have written several years ago that K1c was not brought by Neolithic farmers, but was probably of Indo-European origin, meaning Eastern Hunter-Gatherer. Those samples Mesolithic Thessaly would imply that K1c was found not just in the Steppes, but also a bit further south following the western Black Sea coast, which is very plausible for mobile hunter-gatherers.

EDIT : It would be interesting to see how the two Mesolithic Greeks samples compare with Steppe samples in term of admixture. Will they carry EHG admixture ?
 
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Tomenable said:
??? Actually it took them around 2000 years (from ~8000 ybp to ~6000 years before present):

By the way - they migrated not only by land, but also by boat (for example from Greece to Iberia):

http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/12/106/20150166.figures-only

F1.large.jpg


Here we can see that once they moved north, the speed of their advance slowed down (red color):

F3.large.jpg
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It seems serious enough. Thanks for docs.
curiously, Britain which was settled among the later lands, show big speed of propagation: Long Barrows? It could check the period?
 
The only way lots of H could be from Mesolithic Europeans IMO is if SE Europe was autosomally not WHG and had lots of H. IMO, there isn't enough data on H to have an idea what its history is. We need full sequences Hs from all over West Eurasia. We don't currently have that.

If it weren't for ancient mtDNA I'd think J1c and T2b colonized Europe after the Ice age, because there's not much of it in West Asia. But, ancient DNA has shown modern people aren't representative of ancient people in the same region. So, what may appear to be European H(or J or T) today is may not be from Europe.
 
Maciamo said:
What I find particularly interesting in this study is the absence of mt-haplogroup H, apart from one H5 sample. I have long argued that most H subclades were native to Europe (except H2, H5, H7, H13 and H20, which are Near Eastern in origin). Most people seem to have been convinced that H1, for instance, came with Neolithic farmers, simply because it hasn't been found in Mesolithic Europeans samples so far but suddenly pops up in Neolithic samples. Despite that evidence I continued to be skeptical and argued that H1 originated in southern Europe and was among the first lineages assimilated by Neolithic farmers and brought further north. The Anatolian data supports my hypothesis.

As for the Mesolithic Greek K1c, I have written several years ago that K1c was not brought by Neolithic farmers, but was probably of Indo-European origin, meaning Eastern Hunter-Gatherer. Those samples Mesolithic Thessaly would imply that K1c was found not just in the Steppes, but also a bit further south following the western Black Sea coast, which is very plausible for mobile hunter-gatherers.

EDIT : It would be interesting to see how the two Mesolithic Greeks samples compare with Steppe samples in term of admixture. Will they carry EHG admixture ?
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In reply to your H1

The T1a-m70 man in Karsdorf Germany from 7222ybp has H1au1b

So, his father met this H1au1b in Karsdorf , which would indicate earlier times
 
Fire Haired14 said:
The only way lots of H could be from Mesolithic Europeans IMO is if SE Europe was autosomally not WHG and had lots of H. IMO, there isn't enough data on H to have an idea what its history is. We need full sequences Hs from all over West Eurasia. We don't currently have that.

If it weren't for ancient mtDNA I'd think J1c and T2b colonized Europe after the Ice age, because there's not much of it in West Asia. But, ancient DNA has shown modern people aren't representative of ancient people in the same region. So, what may appear to be European H(or J or T) today is may not be from Europe.
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The way I see it is that J1c and T2b were already present in the Balkans AND Anatolia when the first farmers arrived from the Fertile Crescent. T2b was found in Mesolithic Russia and Sweden, so it must have expanded early, probably just after the LGM. It could have originated in the Caucasus or anywhere around the Caspian Sea, then spread north to Russia (then Sweden), and west to Anatolia and the Balkans.

Let's not forget that agriculture arose about 11,500 years ago in the Fertile Crescent, but these early farmers remained in the Fertile Crescent for some 2500 years before they decided to expand to northern and western Anatolia and Europe. Once they had started it only took them a few centuries to reach Germany and France from Greece.

The original farmers (9500-6500 BCE) were Basal Eurasian in term of autosomal DNA, and also carried Basal Eurasian Y-DNA (G2a and surely also G2b in the south) and mtDNA (N1, N2, W, X). We have seen times and again that Paleolithic and Mesolithic tribes were fairly homogeneous in terms of both admixture and haplogroups. By this logic, the first farmers in the Fertile Crescent must have carried overwhelmingly Basal Eurasian haplogroups. The only notable exceptions are H5 and K1a. But who knows, they could have been absorbed from close neighours within or just outside the Fertile Crescent between 9500 and 6500 BCE. Since R1b was already in the region at the time, domesticating cattle in the northern Fertile Crescent, it is not unreasonable that G2a farmers picked up lineages like H5 or even U8b1 (the ancestor of K*) and K1a from intermarriages with their cattle herding neighbours. After all H is overwhelmingly European and U8 has been found in Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europe, including Russia, where other R1 tribes lived.

In my eyes, the J1c, T2b, U3 found in the Bacin site were all assimilated Mesolithic Anatolians. I have linked mtDNA U3 to Y-haplogroup J1 and T1, which both seem to have expanded from the Caucasus region. J1c was surely found in the Balkans and Anatolia, while T2b would have been all over the Black Sea and Caspian Sea periphery. In other words, T2b and U3 were almost surely found among J1, J2 and T1 tribes living at the northern edge of the Fertile Crescent, while J1c could have belonged to a yet undefined Mesolithic Aegean tribe (C1a2, I2c, H2 ?), with other mt-haplogroups like various H subclades.
 
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@Maciamo,

I agree with that. It makes sense for much of EEF mtDNA to be from hunter gatherers in Anatolia and Greece. I doubt the first farmers were 100% Basal Eurasian though. In Palaeilthic Caucasus there were WHG/ANE+Basal Eurasian admixed populations so I suspect the first farmers were WHG+Basal Eurasian, just less WHG than in Anatolian Neolithic.
 
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