Neolithic migration was family-based, Bronze Age invasion was male-dominated

What is being ignored, AGAIN, despite all the papers and all the threads and the reams of posts is that there isn't a one size fits all "invasion".

What went on in parts of the northern border regions (and perhaps even Britain) that were barely populated was different from what went on in a Central Europe that had experienced population crashes and was perhaps weakened by malnutrition and the diseases (the plague) perhaps carried by the new arrivals, which was different again from what happened, perhaps, in southern Europe, or in Anatolia and Iran, etc. in the Near East.

There are also big differences by time period. I know some people in this hobby, particularly young men, love a sort of Conan the Barbarian or Viking kind of narrative, but it doesn't fit a lot of what went on. Corded Ware only got a little bronze at the very end. They barely had copper weapons. They did not have a big military superiority over the MN people they encountered. That's very different from the Mycenaeans, for example.

You can't make one story fit all.

What I do think is true as a rather global matter is that you often have a civilized "core" built up over generations and hundreds of years which starts to develop problems, perhaps because of climate change, or environmental damage, or class differences which result in mass conflict, and populations of the periphery, perhaps nomadic herders in some areas, swoop in and take over, sometimes with pretty significant genetic changes altogether, sometimes as an elite, sometimes with broad autosomal replacement, sometimes with autosomal admixture but a yDna sweep. You see it in China, in Africa, in the Near East. It has nothing to do with "superiority" whatever the racist "philosophers" and anthropologists of the late 19th century might have thought.

If you have never read or have forgotten about all of this, you can find detailed discussions about these matters if you use the search engine.

I think that in the case upcoming R1b in Northwestern Europe due to the Unetice culture I have a clear example where archeology and DNA research come together.

Maciamo:
"The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Noridc Bronze Age."

The Unetice culture in Northwestern Germany and Northern Netherlands is called the Sögel Kreis.

Prof Harry Fokkens (1998):
''The northern Netherlands is part of the northern group (NW Germany and Denmark) especially of the Sögeler Kreis characterized by a number of distinctive men's graves. The Drouwen grave is the best known Dutch example.It's remarkable that the Elp culture has never been presented as the immigration of a new group of people. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. The disappearance of beakers, the appearance of the Sögel men's graves with the first 'swords', among other things, the fully extended burial posture, under barrows; all the factors have been reason enough in the past to conclude that the Elp culture represented an immigration of Sögel warriors."

Clear example!
 
My point, which I don’t see that you have addressed, is that the arrival of the Indo-European speakers took a different form depending on the place and the time period of the intrusion. What has happened, especially on internet forums, is that cultural norms and patterns from much later periods of pre-history and involving different groups have been transplanted into time periods when those weapons, norms, patterns, etc. didn't exist.

As I tried to explain, Corded Ware does not, imo, have anything to do with the whole concept of mounted, “cowboys of the steppe”, wielding bronze swords, whose chieftans had dozens of local women in their harems.

Yes, cultures like Corded Ware made use of the wheel, not that they invented it, it having been invented either in MN Europe or the Near East or both. (Please use the search engine to find the papers.) They made use of it in carts, carts which in the early periods were most often pulled by oxen. (Again, use the search engine for the papers.) Yes, that gave them more mobility. Yes, given their heavier reliance on herding, they probably were better positioned, given the climate changes, to provide food for their families. If it's true that they brought plague with them, a plague to which they might have had some immunity, that would have been a huge advantage. In those cases, yes, the native women who survived might have been absorbed.

This has nothing to do with the horse riding, raiding, fighting "cowboys" of the steppe who so fire the imagination of some men. That is part of much later cultural developments and much more emblematic of the Iranian tribes than of what was going on in Europe in the early days of the incursions.


As far as much of northern, northwestern, and northeastern Europe, it's not much of a military invasion when there's almost nobody around to be invaded and you're going into almost uninhabited territory, which may be the case in the British Isles and parts of Northern and Northwestern Europe. Whatever admixture with people of MN Europe took place occurred in Central Europe in an earlier time period.

In southern Europe, the Indo-European speakers were apparently not very steppe like by the time they reached the area, because although in the place where I was born perhaps 50% of the men are R1b, and it’s well over 60% where my father was born, with some yDna I thrown in on top of that, the "Yamnaya" percentage is about 25%, and in addition includes, no doubt, what was contributed by the Celtic migrations of the first millennium BC and the Lombards after the fall of the Empire. So, there doesn't seem to have been such a "massive" invasion at the time the Indo-Europeans entered the peninsula. I also doubt the initial incursions could have been "massive" anywhere given that the steppe lands can't carry "massive" populations. The exponential growth in population must have taken place after they had spent some time further west

I'm not going to bother finding all the studies in my files again because no matter how often I post them they're just ignored by people who prefer the one size fits all narrative. If you're interested you can find them.

Just as an aside, and since you raised the issue, you might also want to go back and look at the narratives written at the time about the Germani and other barbarians who were streaming into the Empire. Many if not most of them were desperate, poor, starving, farmers fleeing in terror from the new steppe populations, who were indeed horse mounted warriors. In many instances it was more like the current mass immigration of refugees from the Middle East into Europe than a highly organized military invasion. That was particularly true for the Lombards. You might want to look up a recent paper on ancient Lombard remains. They were malnourished and sick and altogether in terrible condition when they arrived in Italy.

The "Germani" and other invaders who constituted an actual military force, as in the case with some of the Visigoths, were most often Roman trained, equipped and originally led troops who had accepted Roman pay for their services and then turned around to rend to pieces the weakened host.

With the following I agree:

"I suspect that core-periphery interactions are important for developing the periphery. War and trade with the Romans built up the Germans, with the Chinese it built up the various Northern barbarians, and and the Cucuteni and Maykop presumably did the same for the Yamnaya."
 
My point, which I don’t see that you have addressed, is that the arrival of the Indo-European speakers took a different form depending on the place and the time period of the intrusion. What has happened, especially on internet forums, is that cultural norms and patterns from much later periods of pre-history and involving different groups have been transplanted into time periods when those weapons, norms, patterns, etc. didn't exist.

As I tried to explain, Corded Ware does not, imo, have anything to do with the whole concept of mounted, “cowboys of the steppe”, wielding bronze swords, whose chieftans had dozens of local women in their harems.

Yes, cultures like Corded Ware made use of the wheel, not that they invented it, it having been invented either in MN Europe or the Near East or both. (Please use the search engine to find the papers.) They made use of it in carts, carts which in the early periods were most often pulled by oxen. (Again, use the search engine for the papers.) Yes, that gave them more mobility. Yes, given their heavier reliance on herding, they probably were better positioned, given the climate changes, to provide food for their families. If it's true that they brought plague with them, a plague to which they might have had some immunity, that would have been a huge advantage. In those cases, yes, the native women who survived might have been absorbed.

This has nothing to do with the horse riding, raiding, fighting "cowboys" of the steppe who so fire the imagination of some men. That is part of much later cultural developments and much more emblematic of the Iranian tribes than of what was going on in Europe in the early days of the incursions.


As far as much of northern, northwestern, and northeastern Europe, it's not much of a military invasion when there's almost nobody around to be invaded and you're going into almost uninhabited territory, which may be the case in the British Isles and parts of Northern and Northwestern Europe. Whatever admixture with people of MN Europe took place occurred in Central Europe in an earlier time period.

In southern Europe, the Indo-European speakers were apparently not very steppe like by the time they reached the area, because although in the place where I was born perhaps 50% of the men are R1b, and it’s well over 60% where my father was born, with some yDna I thrown in on top of that, the "Yamnaya" percentage is about 25%, and in addition includes, no doubt, what was contributed by the Celtic migrations of the first millennium BC and the Lombards after the fall of the Empire. So, there doesn't seem to have been such a "massive" invasion at the time the Indo-Europeans entered the peninsula. I also doubt the initial incursions could have been "massive" anywhere given that the steppe lands can't carry "massive" populations. The exponential growth in population must have taken place after they had spent some time further west

I'm not going to bother finding all the studies in my files again because no matter how often I post them they're just ignored by people who prefer the one size fits all narrative. If you're interested you can find them.

Just as an aside, and since you raised the issue, you might also want to go back and look at the narratives written at the time about the Germani and other barbarians who were streaming into the Empire. Many if not most of them were desperate, poor, starving, farmers fleeing in terror from the new steppe populations, who were indeed horse mounted warriors. In many instances it was more like the current mass immigration of refugees from the Middle East into Europe than a highly organized military invasion. That was particularly true for the Lombards. You might want to look up a recent paper on ancient Lombard remains. They were malnourished and sick and altogether in terrible condition when they arrived in Italy.

The "Germani" and other invaders who constituted an actual military force, as in the case with some of the Visigoths, were most often Roman trained, equipped and originally led troops who had accepted Roman pay for their services and then turned around to rend to pieces the weakened host.

With the following I agree:

"I suspect that core-periphery interactions are important for developing the periphery. War and trade with the Romans built up the Germans, with the Chinese it built up the various Northern barbarians, and and the Cucuteni and Maykop presumably did the same for the Yamnaya."


Angela, I agree with you that much of this matter is seen through a kind of frame. So the wild Steppe Warriors raiding to Northern Europe etc.
But even you see things with a kind of "Latin frame" as old as the way to Rome ;)
In the North "almost nobody around to be invaded" that's a classic Latin frame.

And I think I'am in a sort of way biased too. But what I try to do is in the reconstruction of the past by comparing archeological findings with DNA research.

The last few days I've read a lot of the ethnogenesis of the German. Simply because the family finder the results of Gedmatch some analysis of Tomenable "stickered" me as classical Northwest European as German.

The result of this research. Germanic is a invention of the Romans, of Julius Caesar c.s. Nothing more nothing less. Some studies like that of Lillian Keller (and early on in het nineteenth century) tried to to make a reconstruction of a "volk". Clearly nineteenth and twentieth century nationalism. I guess this was besides reality, there was never one Germanic story, like that of the Roman and Latin one. The story of Germans is much more divers.

But still, how about my DNA which has striking simmilarities with that of the Danes!? And the Germanic languages, don't they have some same roots!?

So a kind of puzzle. On the one hand we see Germanic diversity, mingling on the other hand some things DNA, language, building of farmhouses and so, show some similarities!

One of these similarities in Northwestern or Germanic Europe could be the influence of the Unetice culture. My picture is not that of hordes but DNA and archeological evidence show more than acculturalization it shows clearly a immigration and a take over!


 
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My point, which I don’t see that you have addressed, is that the arrival of the Indo-European speakers took a different form depending on the place and the time period of the intrusion. What has happened, especially on internet forums, is that cultural norms and patterns from much later periods of pre-history and involving different groups have been transplanted into time periods when those weapons, norms, patterns, etc. didn't exist.

As I tried to explain, Corded Ware does not, imo, have anything to do with the whole concept of mounted, “cowboys of the steppe”, wielding bronze swords, whose chieftans had dozens of local women in their harems.
How many women could a chieftain keep in his harem?
Yes, cultures like Corded Ware made use of the wheel, not that they invented it, it having been invented either in MN Europe or the Near East or both. (Please use the search engine to find the papers.) They made use of it in carts, carts which in the early periods were most often pulled by oxen. (Again, use the search engine for the papers.) Yes, that gave them more mobility. Yes, given their heavier reliance on herding, they probably were better positioned, given the climate changes, to provide food for their families. If it's true that they brought plague with them, a plague to which they might have had some immunity, that would have been a huge advantage. In those cases, yes, the native women who survived might have been absorbed.
If there was a plague, the IEs may have escaped it by being healthier. As I recall, Corded Ware people were healthier than their predecessors. The IEs had won and expanded their territory for food production and the farmers had been defeated and had lost theirs.
This has nothing to do with the horse riding, raiding, fighting "cowboys" of the steppe who so fire the imagination of some men. That is part of much later cultural developments and much more emblematic of the Iranian tribes than of what was going on in Europe in the early days of the incursions.
I went back and checked Anthony. The "horse riding, raiding, fighting "cowboys" of the steppe” is a near-perfect description of what he concludes Indo-Europeans were like from 4300 B.C. onward.


For instance, he writes (pg 239)
Cattle raiding was encouraged by Indo-European beliefs and rituals. The myth of Trito, the warrior, rationalized cattle theft as the recovery of cattle that the gods had intended for the people who sacrificed properly. Proto-Indo-European initiation rituals included a requirement that boys initiated into manhood had to go out and become like a band of dogs or wolves—to raid their enemies.28 Proto-Indo-European also had a word for bride-price, *uedmo-.29 Cattle, sheep, and probably horses would have been used to pay bride-prices, since they generally are valued higher than other currencies for bride-price payments in pastoral societies without formal money.30 Already in the preceding centuries domesticated ani- mals had become the proper gifts for gods at funerals (e.g., at Khvalynsk). A relatively small elite already competed across very large regions, adopting the same symbols of status—maces with polished stone heads, boar's tusk plaques, copper rings and pendants, shell disc beads, and bird-bone tubes. When bride-prices escalated as one aspect of this competition, the result would be increased cattle raiding by unmarried men. Combined with the justification provided by the Trito myth and the institution of male-initiation-group raiding, rising bride-prices calculated in animals would have made cross-border raiding almost inevitable. If they were on foot, Eneolithic steppe cattle raiders might have attacked one another or attacked neighboring Tripolye settlements. But, if they were mounted, they could pick a distant target that did not threaten valued gift partnerships. Raiding parties of a dozen riders could move fifty to seventyfive head of cattle or horses fairly quickly over hundreds of kilometers. 31 Thieving raids would have led to deaths, and then to more serious killing and revenge raids. A cycle of warfare evolving from thieving to revenge raids probably contributed to the collapse of the tell towns of the Danube valley. What kinds of societies lived on the steppe side of the frontier? Is there good archaeological evidence that they were indeed deeply engaged with Old Europe and the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture in quite different ways?

To my knowledge, the distinctly Indo-Iranian innovations were violent war between chiefdoms (as opposed to just raiding) and the chariot. Is there any reason to rule out an Indo-European invention of the wheel? My understanding of the consensus is that it could have been invented anywhere between Germany and Iran. Was the steppe lacking prerequisite technologies to invent it?

As far as much of northern, northwestern, and northeastern Europe, it's not much of a military invasion when there's almost nobody around to be invaded and you're going into almost uninhabited territory, which may be the case in the British Isles and parts of Northern and Northwestern Europe. Whatever admixture with people of MN Europe took place occurred in Central Europe in an earlier time period.

In southern Europe, the Indo-European speakers were apparently not very steppe like by the time they reached the area, because although in the place where I was born perhaps 50% of the men are R1b, and it’s well over 60% where my father was born, with some yDna I thrown in on top of that, the "Yamnaya" percentage is about 25%, and in addition includes, no doubt, what was contributed by the Celtic migrations of the first millennium BC and the Lombards after the fall of the Empire. So, there doesn't seem to have been such a "massive" invasion at the time the Indo-Europeans entered the peninsula. I also doubt the initial incursions could have been "massive" anywhere given that the steppe lands can't carry "massive" populations. The exponential growth in population must have taken place after they had spent some time further west

I never thought of it, but if someone had asked me before Haak et al. what the genetic impact of the Indo-Europeans was on Modern Europe I probably would have guessed 10-20% at the most. The sheer scale of the turnover is what got me interested in ancient DNA. Even people like Anthony, expected that IEs would have constituted a small percentage of the population. The IEs reshaped Europe's gene pool on a scale equal to or approaching that of the Conquistadors on Latin America. And since the invasion was serial, these figures underestimate the total turnover in any particular location. The genetic turnover in Italy may well have been over 50% if the newcomers were like the Bell Beaker sample in Haak. In the North, it appears to have been like Argentina or even North America.
 
How many women could a chieftain keep in his harem?
True story: My Aryan (Ezdi Kurdish) great, great, great, grandfather (from whom I got my Y-DNA) was the only doctor / medicine man (known as 'hakim' in the Middle East) in a region as big as Luxemburg. He had everything. So sometimes when he healed wealthy (Ezdi Kurdish) merchants they gave to him their daughters as a sign of respect & gratitude. At the end he had 7 wifes (all Ezdi Kurds, since Ezdi Kurds marry only Ezdi Kurds and don't mix with outsiders. Children from mixed marriages are not Ezdi anymore). Only from 1 wife he got a son. And I'm a descedant of his only son. To my current knowledge he was the only ancestor who had more than 1 wife though...
 
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