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Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

Albanian hi(r) - 1) ash, ashes 2) = hith 3) dust of corpses, corpse; memory of the dead
hire - religious relics

The word for religious relic is derived from cremation ritual = E-V13.

PS. Riverman, you should start learning Albanian, it is the most complete relic of the E-V13 original tongue.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Albanian hi(r) - 1) ash, ashes 2) = hith 3) dust of corpses, corpse; memory of the dead
hire - religious relics

The word for religious relic is derived from cremation ritual = E-V13.

PS. Riverman, you should start learning Albanian, it is the most complete relic of the E-V13 original tongue.
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Unfortunately I have no great talent for languages, otherwise I would learn many more.
 
What I am trying to say is, genetic heritage will correspond with linguistic heritage as has been the case countless times. I hope the ROUA data comes out soon.

Kazimierz Dobrowolski speculated that the mountaineers of the Beskides mountains had a Balkan input. This is how he visualized it:

fKauTHc.png


His linguistic evidence from what I can find is strictly based on toponyms.

He spends pages on explaining why Beskid cannot be explained in any other language than Albanian. Then he provides some other examples:

1o1wXi9.png


Almost all these examples are Albanian only with the exception of magula and gropa. Magula is closer to the Albanian version than Romanian. So Romanians could not have brought these terms(since they don;t have most of them in their ongue), but neither could have the Albanians, otherwise Albanian haplogroups(Albanian sub-branches) would be present in these populations. The answer is simple, a Dacian population survived until late middle ages, after which it became fully Slavophone. Their original homeland was likely Marmurres or Bukovina.
The event that triggered their full conversion to a Slavic identity is likely the Mongol invasions, their brutal raids must have weakened the ancestral Hutsul population, the Vlach took advantage of the situation and expanded northwards, forcing some of the Hutsuls to migrate towards Poland-Slovakia-Czech republic, where they fused with Slavs and the pursuing Vlachs forming the Gorales.

Kazimierz Dobrowolski spends pages on the toponym of beskides(can't read Polish), but that toponym is actually a Hutsul word with the same meaning as Albanian bjeshk.

Hutsuls speak Slavic, but a very bad Slavic. As a non-Slavic speaker I easily notice it. And they have a strong Dacian substrate (proably 15-20% of their vocab). We will see more on that later.
 
The Oldest multi-page book in the world is apparently found in modern Bulgaria dating to ~600 B.C in Ancient Thrace.

www.thearchaeologist.org

The Golden Etruscan Orphic Book: The World's Oldest Book

BY DIMOSTHENIS VASILOUDIS
www.thearchaeologist.org www.thearchaeologist.org

It is intriguing since the language written is classified as Etruscan yet the religious themes are clearly Thracian. The gold designs are most likely Thracian crafstmanship.
 
Dahoi said:
Is it possible that Albanians might descend from tribes of Free Dacians that were pushed by the Huns into Moesia?
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Albanian is considered related to Illyrian and Messapic. There were some scholars that held the Daco-Thracian origin before but Albanian is not considered as Thracian or Dacian these days.

Proto-Albanian language - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Guys went from cursing Matzinger to begging for his help, how the winds have changed.

Matzinger rules out Illyrian flat out. And the Messapi, half of their words have good cognates/matches with ancient Greek. That should give you a good clue if Albanian is in the same language family. And it says a lot about Messapian, they are likely a west Brygian group, which the Illyrians largely genocided.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Guys went from cursing Matzinger to begging for his help, how the winds have changed.

Matzinger rules out Illyrian flat out. And the Messapi, half of their words have good cognates/matches with ancient Greek. That should give you a good clue if Albanian is in the same language family. And it says a lot about Messapian, they are likely a west Brygian group, which the Illyrians largely genocided.
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Matzinger rules Daco-Thracian flat out actually, Illyrian he still considers to be related to Albanian and Messapic. Those are his personal theories however and not facts since Messapic and proto-Illyrian most likely were the same. And he considers Messapic and Albanian to be related as do most linguists. Messapic was not a West-Brygian or Ancient Greek group but most likely proto-Illyrian groups that crossed over to Italy, not only does the archaeology and anthroponomy for this claim match but the genetics match too.

en.wikipedia.org

Messapic language - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

That's not to say Messapic did not have also an Ancient Greek contribution after they settled Italy. Who cursed Matzinger and who is begging for his help? Matzinger and most linguists these days rule out the possibility of Daco-Thracian being the ancestor of Albanian.
 
Matzinger has ruled out Illyrian, he does not consider it same language as Albanian. A forced association through Messapi is feeble as the language show 50% cognate correlation with ancient Greek. Clearly the Messapi were closer to ancient Greeks than the lilies, and only one group fits that criteria, Brygians.

Messapi are from southern Albania, which was Brygian territory until the Illyrians committed genocide on them. Messapi are without a doubt related to the R-PF7563 and J2a natives of southern Albania. Genetically this group takes a big blow from an inland Illyrian group in EIA who are carriers of R-BY250. The leaked ancient samples agree with archeology.

Messapi are the carriers of Matt-painted culture, a culture no one associates with Illyrians other than 3rd world archeologists and 3rd world dna project. Throwing tantrums about "autochtonism" will not change anything.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Matzinger has ruled out Illyrian, he does not consider it same language as Albanian. A forced association through Messapi is feeble as the language show 50% cognate correlation with ancient Greek. Clearly the Messapi were closer to ancient Greeks than the lilies, and only one group fits that criteria, Brygians.

Messapi are from southern Albania, which was Brygian territory until the Illyrians committed genocide on them. Messapi are without a doubt related to the R-PF7563 and J2a natives of southern Albania. Genetically this group takes a big blow from an inland Illyrian group in EIA who are carriers of R-BY250. The leaked ancient samples agree with archeology.

Messapi are the carriers of Matt-painted culture, a culture no one associates with Illyrians other than 3rd world archeologists and 3rd world dna project. Throwing tantrums about "autochtonism" will not change anything.
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Why are you making up replies which aren't supported by any scholar? When did Illyrians commit "genocide" on Brygians? Show us one credible source which supports that Messapic has 50% cognates with Greek. You are just making up replies as you go and then you expect other to reply to you. Your posts are pure fiction intended only to cause confusion.

The abstract you're citing about R-PF7563 and R-BY250 supports a common origin for both lineages.

We identified a genetically homogeneous population throughout the respective time in contrast to all societal transformations in the wider region. Moreover, we found evidence for a patrilineal society, within which all the males Y chromosomes belong to two distinct sub-groups of R1b1a1b (M269). We identified the biological relatedness up to 6th degree with IBD analysis. The amount of relatedness raised after 750 BCE. We also detected a signature of a population size decrease around 750 BCE using HapROH, which coincides with the prevalence of Y chromosome lineage R1b1a1b1b3 and a new way of grave construction. Besides, a female individual was biologically related to individuals both before and after 750 BCE. Overall, all the ancient DNA evidence support a local population bottleneck event."
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The paper speaks about a homogeneous population throughout the respective time and you're just lying without any shred of credibility.

Albanian is considered by scholars today as the closest living language to Messapic. As far as I know, in Messapians there is R1b-Z2103 and J2b-L283 ... yet.

Ancient genomics support deep divergence between Eastern and Western Mediterranean Indo-European languages​


Messapic is a fragmentarily attested language of the Salento peninsula of Italy surviving in ca. 600 inscriptions from the 6th c. BCE until the Roman conquest of the region48. Though an Indo-European language, Messapic does not belong to the Italic subgroup. Its further classification is hampered by its fragmentary attestation, but lexical correspondences with modern Albanian, visible despite the 1,500 years separating their attestation, point to a trans-Adriatic origin49. Three individuals from Coastal/Southern Italy indicate a gene flow from Balkans, particularly from Montenegro and Greece (Genetic Supplementary Fig S6.11). The number is small, and these individuals are from disparate contexts and therefore do not seem to be members of a single community. Some of them could, e.g., represent Mycenaean immigrants. But the presence of Balkan ancestry components in BA Southern Italy is not inconsistent with the possibility of Messapic having a Balkan origin.
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TheOne said:
Matzinger rules Daco-Thracian flat out actually, Illyrian he still considers to be related to Albanian and Messapic. Those are his personal theories however and not facts since Messapic and proto-Illyrian most likely were the same. And he considers Messapic and Albanian to be related as do most linguists. Messapic was not a West-Brygian or Ancient Greek group but most likely proto-Illyrian groups that crossed over to Italy, not only does the archaeology and anthroponomy for this claim match but the genetics match too.
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Yes, Matzinger outright denies any Dacian origin for Albanian and consider Messapic to be its closest relative.
 
Albanian is considered by scholars today as the closest living language to Messapic. As far as I know, in Messapians there is R1b-Z2103 and J2b-L283 ... yet.
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You don't crap and who cares what you think you know. J2b and R-BY250 show up north of the Messapi, among the "Japanesian" tribes.

The abstract you're citing about R-PF7563 and R-BY250 supports a common origin for both lineages.
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The the same abstract clearly states R-BY250 replaces the R-PF7563. Illyrians were very Serbish.
 
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The DNA from the Slavic paper are out ahead of the manuscript. I took the time to plot the J-L283s and E-V13s based on site/location.



vn0BYGu.png



As can be clearly seen, J2b-L283 and E-V13 show no relationship even post Roman period. The fairy tale Illyrians subjugating and "re-educating" E-V13s into Illyro-Italic speakers is unicorn. The options for such a scenario continue to shrink into impossibility.

1) J2bs in Zagreb Croatia are still quite present even before the Slavs came in with very little foreign admixture(G25 show both MENA and Germanic admixture, hence they barely move in a PCA graph).

2) Besides no E-V13s among clearly Illyrian sites. There is no R-Z2705 either from the Croatian samples. It's safe bet to exclude it from Illyrian sphere, it should have shown up by now, same for R-PF7563. No relation to Illyrian core.

3) E-V13 is present in Przeworsk culture at a ratio above 10%.

4) E-V13 has a good presence in early eastern Slavs, 11% based on Ukrainian samples from this study. This is consistent with other East Slavic samples from early medieval period. This should not be the case if E-V13 is not Daco-Thracian and it belongs to "everyone", because Illyrians clearly don't have it.

5) No R-BY250 this time. As I proposed, this lineage is an inland Illyrian. It should show up in Bosnia, western Serbia and Dardanian Illyrians.
 
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I consider the presence of E-V13, notably of E-Z5017, among Przeworsk particularly important if talking about this paper.
 
There are other papers whose abstracts were shown here about post-Roman Croatia with E-V13 being insignificant in Roman Dalmatia and appearing suddenly under Avar rule accompanied with the disappearance of J2b-L283. This is the common theme of these two haplogroups, they don't go hand in hand, only under synthetic conditions such as a Roman slave island, Roman cosmopolitan or legionary quarters where other foreign haplogroups appear too.

The sample size is already good enough, there will be no drift in the data going forward even if future data is five fold higher.

The only suspense left is the big void in the map of ancient samples, the Daco-Thracian sphere which to date academia has dragged their feet, reluctant to publish the samples.
 
These are the samples from Ukraine:
  • KRW002 E-A7136
  • KRW005 G-FTC66228
  • KRW007 R-YP569
  • KRW008 R-CTS11962
  • PDH003 J-Z30685
  • PDH004 I-CTS10228
  • PDH005 E-BY35791
  • PDH006 R-FT266646
  • PDH007 I-CTS10228
  • PDH008 I-S20602
  • PDH009 I-PF3892
  • PDH011 R-FT167457
  • PDH012 R-FT167457
2/13 are E-V13, early east Slavs had 15.38% E-V13. This is likely due to assimilation of elements from Chernyakhov culture and east Slavic intrusion into Carpathians. We know from the Ukranian paper published last year, the Goths (Chernyakhov culture) had resettled Dacians all way into eastern Ukraine, a Roman style geopolitics of shuffling/settling tribes of questionable loyalty as federati into foreign lands to gain their allegiance.
 
Concerning the E-V13 + J-L283 fusion: The main unknown in this respect in the Pre-Roman and earlier Roman period are two groups, primarily the Dardanians and secondarily elements associated with the Srem region/group, because these two areas and people might have mixed extensively, with both Daco-Thracians and Illyrians being clearly involved, if going by the archaeological and linguistic evidence.

Therefore again, if there was a group which had lots of E-V13 and J-L283 side by side, especially if talking about a group of importance for Albanians and Vlachs, it was the Dardanians.

It is remarkable that two haplogroups (BY5022 and Y3183) appear at both ends in these samples. The constant appearance of BY5022 in particular might point to a lasting survival of the old Thracian (Cozia-Saharna?) and Thraco-Greek layers in parts of Ukraine, possibly.

The samples is rather small, so one can't deduce too much from it though. East Slavs have lots of Z5017/CTS9320 in Western Ukrainians and L241/FGC11457 in Russians and further to the East (into Central and East Asia). So with different tribes and areas being sampled, the pattern might still change quite a lot, especially concerning exact branches and frequencies.
 
The Srem group lived in a flat plain(where populations don't have a stable shelf-life), which in late Iron Age got overrun by Celts. We have Roman era samples from that region and it's mostly Celto and Illyrian in haplogroups.

Dardania has taken a mythical repute of being the holly grail of Thracian-Illyrian symbiosis. No evidence is presented other than endless spam repetitions in a forum that allows duplicate accounts to run amock. The region historically known as Dardania has shifted back and forth between Illyrians and Thracians. The Illyrians had the last say, as the Dardanian kingdom that came into conflict with Macedon and Rome was clearly Illyrian led. They expanded starting post 300 BC. They ruled some Thracians for 150-200 years. This is hardly a basis to dream tales of symbiosis or converted E-V13s as Roman records show Thracians survived, if they didn't they would not kept their ethnic names.

A symbiosis or mixture occurred under Roman rule on the Morava river. This is written by Radu Crăciun who proposes these people are the forerunners of Albanians. I disagree, the people that mixed under Roman rule, also mixed with Levantine and others. Mixed ethnicities don't retain old heritage, or create conditions to uphold them, they assimilate, these people are certain to be the ancestors of Romanians, such mixed people became in a sense Romans(citizens of an empire).
 
The J2b-L283s in Velim are likely a legacy of kruja-Komani culture elements that were noted a century earlier:
Other burials in the mounds from Krneza belong to the ‘old-Croat’ culture and are dated mostly to 8th and 9th century, but it seems that the burial sequence in Duševića glavica also contained graves from 7th century. This relates to the finds from the grave 6 which contains a pottery vessel, small knife and the pieces of belt set with two pendants, one of which is bronze semicircular pendant with open-work ornament.40 This type of pendant is known from several sites in Dalmatia, such as Kašić Maklinovo brdo, Velim-Velištak, and Drvenik near Makarska. However, the largest number of parallels was found in grave assemblages from the cemetery Kalaja-Dalmaces in Albania, which is part of so-called Komani-Kruje archaeological culture. Important discussi on about the dating of this pendant developed between Ante Milošević, who has dated it in 7th century and Maja Petrinec, who has dated it in late 8th century. A recent paper of Florin Curta clarified dating of the semicircular pen dants with open work ornament, with strong arguments, in the period between 630 and 660 giving additional strength to the hypothesis that these artifacts should be dated in 7th century.
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The site is located just halfway between Dubrovnik and Split. This is an indirect prelude to the Kruja-Komani samples. Almost entirely J2b-L283 dominated and no R-Z2705 among them.
 
Since the BBC samples from Croatia are late Roman period, I think it warrants an update on the stats of Roman provinces based on ancient DNA published to date:

wwGTERn.png


The patterns are self-evident. There are two weaknesses to the data. The current Dalmatian data is heavily biased on cosmopolitan sites(which is normal for Roman Dalmatia), and so is the Serbian data, which comes almost entirely from Viminacium. It is what is, the data is still valuable.
 
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