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Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

These are the matches for the parallel branch to R-Z2705, there is also one that I pointed out yesterday that belongs to R-FGC43622, a modern Slavic branch.
IM4M11A.png


The most important Alb medevial sample as proven by IBD sharings
nj0aC1j.png


Closest match out 16k samples is a E-V13. The E-V13 sample is also likely MIA and comes from a site full of E-V13s. Other close matches are rare branch of R-Z2103 and R-M73, rare branches of I.
fantastic
 
Using updated coordinates:
0Q3m9bk.png


Order changes, rare branches of R-Z2109 that plot like medevial Albanians. I38695 belongs to a branch of R-FGC43622, it's particular sub-branch is likely the same as another sample that plots South Thracian and this particular clade is clearly from Bulgaria.
 
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Tautalus posted an awesome link. It's an IBD tool. However the database has not been updated, it's only relavent to samples up to southern Arc publication.

It does have the female from Shtike.
9z0doE2.png


She is the sample that shares the most IBDs with modern Albanians, massive sharing. Her biggest IBD sharing with ancients is the Vekerzug sample that plots like Thracian core groups. A whopping 14.12CMs with someone from 600 BC, and even a single strand of 7.82 CMs.

Nothing with Illyrians.
 
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xJVMy41.png


It even shares with Babadag sample MJ-12 7.2 cM, Moldovian Scythian 6.9 CM, only one MBLA Sample from Croatia 6.1 CM and it's not Illyrian but from Bezdanjača Cave. How bad was that paper from Gojaxhiu and co.
 
I wouldn't make much of that female from Shtike. She obviously came to Albania during the migration era just by looking at her Mtdna. The whole tmrca of that clade is like only 1850:

The unfortunate thing is that they only got us one sample, and a female from that time period.
 
That Greeks play no significant role though can be shown if going for more genealogically relevant segments larger than 8 cM again and creating a network map for the core Thracian samples available in the old data base:

Matching-Network1.jpg


It is kind of amazing that Greek being completely bypassed in this mode with the available data points.

Just compare the Vekerzug-Chotin matches and La Tene era Matching from South Western Slovakia or Czech Unetice, Bell Beaker and La Tene era samples with the Greek zone.

To prove how big of a deal that is, just do the comparison with Mycenaean Greeks, with the same settings (again 8 cM minimum):

Greek-Matching-Network1.jpg


They have a bit of old Carpathian admixture too (Bodrogkeresztur, Maros - just look at Mygdalia for example, they surely got a bit of BSK admixture too), but not just the South Thracians being left out.
No South Thracians
No Mezocsat
No Vekerzug
No La Tene Hungary
No Glinoe/Thraco-Scythian

But they have significant matching with the Illyrians! Again, look at Mygdalia for example.

Also interesting: The Mycenaean Greeks have contacts to Unetice and Knoviz too in Czechia, but not to Czech Bell Beakers. They generally have much less of a Bell Beaker affinity than the Thracians.

That the Thracians have so many matches in Hungary is not by chance and because Hungary being better tested, because you see, the Mycenaean Greeks have only one Hungarian match, which is from Bodrogkeresztur and possibly comes through their BSK/Vucedol/Illyrian connections. So basically they have no relevant matching in Hungary at all. They also have none in Slovakia, whereas the Thracians have a big string there to Vekerzug and La Tene era samples.

There were people which claimed that the Illyrian admixture caused the Balkan-cluster in Vekerzug - uniparentals and individual IBD say no, but the network of the Southern Illyrians makes it even more obvious:

Illyrian-Matching-Network1.jpg


The "North Illyrian" network with Croatian samples is a total mess, because they are all over the place, but they still don't get the Thracian-related sites - they only get one (!) Vekerzug sample. The biggest fun however: They match with one Füzesabony also, but not Mezocsat.

WIth the IBD matching and network maps one can in a second completely refute such claims that the Balkan-shift in Vekerzug comes primarily from the Illyrians. South is completely out, but even the more North Western groups have barely any significant overlap - most importantly, less than the Thracians do!
 
One can also see that Thracians do not have any IBD link to Bulgarian neolithic or Greek, very little here and there but plenty in Hungary, and even more so among the group from of samples from Romanian-Hungarian border. Through method of deduction, we are left only with one choice, either the neolithic component is from Bosnia 🤣 or Romania.

The argument of local native development from Bulgaria is out, it's the equivalent of arguing that they sprouted from the soil itself.

Also the strands Thracians share with those samples on southern Poland and west Ukraine border area are quite thick (green color), and that area is under sampled as of southern Arc dataset. It's another geneflow that seems important.
 
I wouldn't make much of that female from Shtike. She obviously came to Albania during the migration era just by looking at her Mtdna. The whole tmrca of that clade is like only 1850:

The unfortunate thing is that they only got us one sample, and a female from that time period.
That's the same tmrca as R1b-Z2705, maybe her mtdna group moved to Albania together with Z2705
 
The argument of local native development from Bulgaria is out, it's the equivalent of arguing that they sprouted from the soil itself.
I think we should be more careful here though, because the real borderline is not that of the modern state of Bulgaria, but the Balkan/Haemus mountains. This separated the Northern groups from the Southern ones and the Danubian zone of Bulgaria was nearly always closer connected to Hungary-Serbia-Romania, especially the North West, then the Thracian plain South of the Balkan mountains.

The main overlap in every respect is with BSK/Salcuta, Western Gumelnita and Bodrogkeresztur. If you look at BSK/Salcuta, its both in Romania and Bulgaria, both North and South of the Danube:

Neoliticul_superior_in_Romania.jpg


Oltenia is the original core, from which first Salcuta IV - Cernavoda with Salcuta elements - Cotofeni - Cotofeni-Kostolac with Yamnaya influence - Gornea-Orlesti - Verbicoara-Vatin emerged.
That sequence is absolutely key and both Cotofeni and Gornea-Orlesti reached much further both North (Otomani, Wietenberg) and South (Vatin, Tei, Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna, Brnjica).

Also the distribution maps of Cotofeni always prove that North Western Bulgaria was part of that sphere - Northern Bulgaria was just hit by other invasions (Horodistea-Foltesti/Cernavoda II, Yamnaya, Encrusted Pottery etc.) much harder than Oltenia or much of Transylvania. That's making it a less safe haven type of region, but I would still speak of Southern Bulgaria not Bulgaria as a whole.
Just to be safe, because there is no reason to take Northern Bulgaria completely out of the equation. And there is this female also, from Northern Bulgaria late Gumelnita:

Code:
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Switzerland_LN.AG:Aes20     7.02     19.59     3
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Germany_Saxony_LBK_N.AG:DER034     8.77     16.47     2
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Romania_C_Bodrogkeresztur_o1:I15623     8.61     15.14     2
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Czechia_N_Rivnac_oAnatolia.AG:TUC002     8.08     14.67     2
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Bulgaria_EIA:I20183     7.11     13.49     2
Bulgaria_C:I2509     England_Viking.SG:VK175_noUDG.SG     7.14     13.29     2
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Croatia_MN:I26738     7.23     13.23     2
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Hungary_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat:I11683     8.41     8.41     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Ukraine_EIA_Cimmerian_o1.SG:MJ-31_noUDG.SG     8.31     8.31     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Croatia_C_Lasinja:I10053     8.30     8.30     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Turkey_N_sister.I0736:I0854_enhanced     8.08     8.08     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Turkey_Central_TepecikCiftlik_N.WGC.SG:Tep003_noUDG.WGC     8.05     8.05     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Croatia_Popova_MN.SG:POP12_noUDG.SG     7.99     7.99     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Turkey_N:I0746     7.98     7.98     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Czechia_EBA_Unetice.AG:KNE002     7.89     7.89     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     France_MN_father.or.son.GLN302.AG:GRG052     7.77     7.77     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     England_Viking_o.SG:VK150_noUDG.SG     7.71     7.71     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Croatia_Dragulin_Roman.SG:R3665.SG     7.71     7.71     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Ukraine_Eneolithic_Trypillia.SG:VERT111     7.64     7.64     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Latvia_LN_CordedWare.SG:Latvia_LN1_noUDG.SG     7.59     7.59     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Ireland_MN.SG:PB1327.SG     7.58     7.58     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Sweden_Late_N.SG:oll010_noUDG.SG     7.55     7.55     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Spain_MLN:I7606     7.51     7.51     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Czech_EBA_Unetice:KO1006     7.47     7.47     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Ukraine_Eneolithic_Trypillia.SG:VERT106C     7.40     7.40     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     England_EIA:I13682     7.29     7.29     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Estonia_EarlyViking.SG:VK480_noUDG.SG     7.27     7.27     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Kyrgyzstan_TianShan_Hun.SG:DA65_noUDG.SG     7.26     7.26     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Romania_EN:I2533     7.24     7.24     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Turkey_Boncuklu_N.SG:Bon002_noUDG.WGC     7.21     7.21     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Estonia_EarlyViking.SG:VK491_noUDG.SG     7.18     7.18     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     France_MN:GRG028     7.17     7.17     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     France_EN_MN:LBR003     7.12     7.12     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Ireland_MN.SG:PN07.SG     7.09     7.09     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Russia_MLBA_Sintashta.SG:RISE394_noUDG.SG     7.08     7.08     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Romania_C_Bodrogkeresztur:I14165     7.06     7.06     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Germany_EN_LBK:I0026     7.05     7.05     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Czech_BellBeaker:KO1003     7.02     7.02     1
Bulgaria_C:I2509     Norway_Viking.SG:VK393_noUDG.SG     7.02     7.02     1

She matches among the highest with the steppe outlier in Bodrogkeresztur from Urziceni, but also with:
- EIA South Thracians
- Mezocsat locals
- Thracian Hallstatt Kartal

I think that's clearly pointing to that area described of Salcuta-Gumelnita in Southern Romania and Northern Bulgaria being the primary source of the main ANF-ancestral component. That doesn't mean SHE is the ancestor, but she was in the network of these BSK-Gumelnita groups which came under steppe influence. Probably kind of a cousin to the actual ancestor from her clan.
 
Btw, based on that G25 clusterer tool, the FTD60421 fella clusters with "Greece_BA_Epirus" and his closest population are "Croatia_Late_Antiquity_Hvar_Radosevic (BA-IA_Southern_Balkan_Profile).
 
Btw, based on that G25 clusterer tool, the FTD60421 fella clusters with "Greece_BA_Epirus" and his closest population are "Croatia_Late_Antiquity_Hvar_Radosevic (BA-IA_Southern_Balkan_Profile).

Not true. There is a E-V13 samples above it, a comparison to almost 16k samples.
IM4M11A.png


I135009 from HVAR is also E-V13 and clearly no Illyrian.
olhruWi.png


^This Roman period site had only 1 J-L283. It's not a Illyrian site, it's a Roman cosmopolitan site. The fact that I35009 is also E-V13 strengthens the Thracian relationship by reconfirming it over and over.
jVjA7Ro.png
 
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I wasn’t saying it’s Illyrian. Yes, that’s a Roman site and I counted three V13, four J2a, one J1, one L283 and one G2a.

It’s a Roman melt pot type of site, so without knowing the context of that sample we can’t say exactly what he is or how he formed that profile. He could be from such a site too from the western/central Balkans, considering how most CTS1450 seem to lean thus far - excluding FGC43622
 
It plots like a Thracian and 2/3 of it's matches are E-V13s, but you hope it is not Thracian related, maybe it's pure chance and coincidental admixtures. Not very accepting to the idea are you.
 
It plots like a Thracian and 2/3 of its matches are E-V13s, but you hope it is not Thracian related, maybe it's pure chance and coincidental admixtures. Not very accepting to the idea are you.
From this data set you have five confirmed BY611+

I41663 (Y32147) - South Slavic cluster, closest population wise to Pannonian Avars
I43465 (PH970) - South Slavic cluster, closest population Montenegro High Medieval Doclea
I40319 (BY611) - Slavic shifted, Hungary High Medieval closest population
I39569 (BY611) - Slavic shifted, Croatia Early Medieval closest population
I46264 (FTD60421) - has this odd southern Balkan profile, pulling that Greek cluster instead of Bulgaria IA

Plot all of them, he is the outlier as it stands
 
He is not an outlier, he is pre-Slavic, lol. This is peak disillusion, you're hoping he is some kind of Greek. :ROFLMAO:

We know the samples from Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia:

Samples labelled from Fluffy also appear Balkan Slavic, maybe Slovenia. No BY611 among west Balkan Slavs.
 
Kek

Why would i want him to be Creek 🤣

He’s probably mystery meat from some Roman/Avar mixed settlement but obviously ultimately from central/western Balkans
 
You're hoping he is mystery meet, because you are insecure. Top matches out 20 samples are 17 males of which 15 are E-V13s, you hope these are mystery meats and not Thracians.
I46264_R-FTD6421 next to each matches and South Thracians
RhuLO0m.png


:ROFLMAO:

cef97fo.png
 
Kek

Why would i want him to be Creek 🤣

He’s probably mystery meat from some Roman/Avar mixed settlement but obviously ultimately from central/western Balkans
It also doesn't really change the fact majority of R-Z2103>CTS1450/CTS9219 in this data set are BA-IA Illyrians. Publication of these studies will just add to known aDNA diversity of CTS1450/CTS9219 which this far is centred in an area stretching from Picentes and Iapygians to Syrmia/Lesser Pannonia and down to Illyrian proper territory aka Çinamak BA-IA, Kamenice BA-IA and with extensions in Paeonians.

Most of these Thracian claims here seem rather personal i.e. trying to link Albanians to Romanians due to personal ethnic Aromanian background from Southern Albania. This doesn't really matter end of day when it'll get nullified by studies with some good batches of BA-IA Illyrian R-Z2103>CTS9219>BY611 samples.
 
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