Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

[PaleoRevenge]

There are a lot more samples from Wietenberg than that.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-of-human-remains-in-the-study-area-Dotted-line-the-extent-of-the-Wietenberg_fig2_272313965

Be patient, this particular sample has a very unique burial. I want to see it's real G25 because it does have increased EEF compared to JAG and Monteru. Something has to explain this. Most likely scenario this person was the son of an outsider who married a local female (haplogroup H1 btw). Based on where the real G25 plots it would reveal where the unadmixed locals plot.

 

[Riverman]

Now I made a more extensive analysis of the sample and I'm now pretty sure we deal with an individual which has Monteoru admixture of about 1/3 to 1/2, which would fit into the bigger picture of an inhumation burial and haplogroup I2. But for the sake of an argument, just to keep things open, I took the sample for what it is, without assuming, even though I'm pretty sure, it has high Monteoru admixture.

I made a selection of samples relevant to the region and time frame:

One can clearly seee that there is a mixture of one component, which is more Maros like, and another, which is more Monteoru-like. From Encrusted Pottery, that much can be said, the sample is very far away. Because of the mixed character of the individual, the distances are rather bad:

The three closest relevant samples are however Maros, Protonagyrev and Cetina. This shows that even this mixed individuals tends towards Vucedol derived groups, rather.

Third I made a PCA (Europe 2 version) with the relevant samples plus Mezocsat locals (Western fringe Gáva-Kyjatice):

The closest samples are Maros, Protonagyrev, Vatya individuals from the ancients, from the later periods a Hungarian EIA and a Mezocsat local sample get close.

With the Encrusted Pottery group, he has nothing in common, even though he has Monteoru admixture. One can however see, that one of the outliers from Mezocsat has still that Encrusted Pottery-like profile, which proves that this type of population survived somewhere around the Carpathian basin, yet its clearly not related to Wietenberg or Gáva, because those rather replaced it.

What's also clearly visible is, that GAS004, even though he has Monteoru admixture, being strongly pulled towards the EEF pole, towards Bordrogkeresztur and others. This is especially evident if comparing him with Maros and Cetina.

The trend is probably even better visible on the Europe 1 PCA:

He approaches Bodrogkeresztur, especially the outlier No 2.

And that's despite the fact, that he is, in all likelihood, a mix of actual Wietenberg : Monteoru.
I included Noua-Sabatinovka, he doesn't need it, and if he would have had recent Sabatinovka admixture, he would score and plot differently. Therefore my assumption is that just like Nagyrev samples, he is a mixed local and the local component looks very EEF, even more than he is, low steppe, low WHG.

Of course, it would be great to have more samples to confirm this directly, but the abstract for the Transylvanian project already said so - why should they argue for local continuity up to Noua, and this sample has no Noua-Sabatonovka admixture and is too early for that anyway (dated to Wietenberg II period!). Monteoru admixture, that is a different thing and was recognised from the archaeological record in Transylvania already.

Therefore my conclusion is: He is a local, no complete foreigner, but he has recent Monteoru admixture up to 50 percent, which might be part of the explanation, why he got an inhumation burial within a Wietenberg context. I would also like to know, whether the other buried people of the site are related to him, probably from the same mixed lineage. I consider this a distinct possiblity.

But again, the other component, that minus Monteoru, is quite obviously very high EEF and low WHG, and even this mixed individual pulls in that direction already, compared to all the other relevant samples from the MBA.

It is probably worth to mention that we have even more extreme samples in this respect from the record, and again its a from a culturally mixed-foreign context. The Hungarian Bell Beaker samples are all over the place. Some plot like actual Bell Beakers, others like Encrusted Pottery already, They mixed with local high EEF groups, or better, some Beakers were part of that.

This sample looks, overall, very promising for the upcoming samples, insofar as following the trend: A clear decline of WHG ancestry and increase of EEF from West to East within the Carpathian basin:
Encrusted Pottery -> Vatya -> Nagyrev -> Wietenberg. And that can be shown, even with this apparently/likely mixed individual!

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I would prefer to to see the real G25, sims can be shifted, in this case it looks too shifted toward the IA Italians. I suppose it is a little less WHG, but lets see.

Do you know if the Romania paper will have samples from Costisa culture? It seems like the perfect spot to catch early E-V13s who inhumated under steppe influence.

 

[Riverman]

I would prefer to to see the real G25, sims can be shifted, in this case it looks too shifted toward the IA Italians. I suppose it is a little less WHG, but lets see.

Do you know if the Romania paper will have samples from Costisa culture? It seems like the perfect spot to catch early E-V13s who inhumated under steppe influence.

I'm not aware of Costisa samples, but they included new samples in the update in between, also from beyond the Carpathians, so its possible. However, I don't think that E-V13 was there, splinters could, but rather not. I think the E-V13 centre was really the Upper Tisza region/Suciu de Sus core zone.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I'm not aware of Costisa samples, but they included new samples in the update in between, also from beyond the Carpathians, so its possible. However, I don't think that E-V13 was there, splinters could, but rather not. I think the E-V13 centre was really the Upper Tisza region/Suciu de Sus core zone.

Why were the Costisa burials 50/50 cremantion/inhumation. Seems like the only group to influence them to cremate would be Wietenberg.

 

[Riverman]

Why were the Costisa burials 50/50 cremantion/inhumation. Seems like the only group to influence them to cremate would be Wietenberg.

True, but keep in mind, beside all other factors, that Wietenberg was huge. Even if Wietenberg had E-V13, we don't know whether all its provinces had or had it at the same level. The most important groups are from the Western fringe of Wietenberg, because that's the ones which might have played some role in the formation of Suciu de Sus and Gáva.
The Eastern ones are likely to got hit the hardest by Sabatinovka.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

True, but keep in mind, beside all other factors, that Wietenberg was huge. Even if Wietenberg had E-V13, we don't know whether all its provinces had or had it at the same level. The most important groups are from the Western fringe of Wietenberg, because that's the ones which might have played some role in the formation of Suciu de Sus and Gáva.
The Eastern ones are likely to got hit the hardest by Sabatinovka.

I am not looking for the E-V13 branches that succeeded, just E-V13 in general. Because if E-V13 is frequent in Costisa, and occasionally in other cultures west of Wietenberg, it proves that E-V13 in it's core region cremated strictly. Of the Wietenberg samples that could be E-V13 would be the excarnated bones and pieces of unburned bones, seems like an insult version of cremation, done on purpose to insult locals who misbehaved themselves. Head cut offs, or headless bodies could be as well, but these seem something that would be made mostly from sacrificed enemies and likely not locals.

 

[Riverman]

I am not looking for the E-V13 branches that succeded, just -V13

The big problem with obviously mixed groups is, that they sometimes stick to the rites of their ancestors. Like they can live side by side for generations, and unless there are mixed marriages, you don't get the male if its this male group which cremated. Like in Chotin, I'm absolutely sure that there were more E-V13 carriers, its just they were cremated/not tested.
Could have been the case in Costisa too.
Its not by chance that the mixed people, like the two BB lineage Nagyrev males, got inhumed, not the locals. The burial rite could have been that of the father, usually.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I replied prematurely. I edited my post. My hunch is in Costisa, E-V13 would have been less strict on cremation, more assimilated to inhumation and the odds are better or popping there than in it's core region. I don't think we will see zero E-V13 in Wietenberg, but I suspect they will seem like the minority because in it's core regions it was foreigners derived individuals that broke the norm and inhumated.

 

[Riverman]

I replied prematurely. I edited my post. My hunch is in Costisa, E-V13 would have been less strict on cremation, more assimilated to inhumation and the odds are better or popping there than in it's core region. I don't think we will see zero E-V13 in Wietenberg, but I suspect they will seem like the minority because in it's core regions it was foreigners derived individuals that broke the norm and inhumated.

That's at least what we saw in the Gáva borderzone, with nearly all males being totally foreign, like out of question for being local both by burial rite, autosomals and uniparentals. Some found and analysed are less likely to be Gáva-like and genetically related than Kyjatice or Monteoru people are, totally out of range for the most part. If we start from that pattern, that's indeed an issue for Wietenberg.

However, two things tell me its different in Wietenberg:
- In Wietenberg we have a couple of inhumation burials, not all are the same and can be put into the same kind of category. The range is way bigger than for Gáva or the core Upper Tisza region.
- We got the abstract from the Transylvanian research project which clearly states a regional continuity with little steppe influx. If the people were just like Encrusted Pottery or Monteoru, that statement would be kind of misleading and they should rather have chosen to connect them with the surrounding Danubian block people. Therefore I expect local Wietenberg samples to be included and to be different, from its main neighbouring groups which are distantly related.

The main reason why I'm not sure we get E-V13 from Wietenberg samples is the above mentioned, the core region for the later expansion was the Upper Tisza-Transtisza groups, and these were more specific and possibly different from Wietenberg either in general or from Wietenberg in other regions.
But we'll see how it pans out, hopefully sooner rather than later.

 

[Riverman]

By the way, remember this post:

To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

I agree, one must not forget the various Tell Cultures in Pannonian_Carpathian basin were the last Neolithic people of Europe still resisting the IE newcomers, even the original Etruscans are believed to come from Urnfield cultures of these varieties. One of Tell Cultures or some...

www.eupedia.com

Now we got the same haplogroup:
I5724 382-206 calBCE (2235±20 BP, PSUAMS-3094) HRV_IA Sv. Križ Brdovečki Croatia E-Y16721 E1b1b1a1b1a14~

E-Y16721 YTree

www.yfull.com

In the South Caucasus:

Genetic study - The Genetic History of the South Caucasus from the Bronze to the Early Middle Ages: 5000 years of genetic continuity despite high mobility

Abstract Archaeological and archaeogenetic studies have highlighted the pivotal role of the Caucasus region throughout prehistory, serving as a central hub for cultural, technological, and linguistic innovations. However, despite its dynamic history, the critical area between the Greater and...

www.eupedia.com

Sample:

SMT017

M

Early Middle Ages

E1b1b1a1b1a14~

J1b1b1

 

[PaleoRevenge]

If GAS004 is half local and half Monteru, it would imply the locals were 18% Yamnaya, 73% EEF, 3% WHG and 6% EHG. The extra EHG might be what the Bulgarian leak implying of excess Baltic ancestry. However based on the sim he does not look half Monteru as the plot does not work, this could change with the real G25, sims can shift a lot.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The new Avar samples do not plot like Thracians, and their MENA admixture is three times higher.

The samples plot like post-mdv Albania but with no relation to the Albanian autosomal. But if one removes their MENA admixture they should plot closer to Himera E-V13s, that is further away from IA Bulgarian not closer. These E-V13 branches are northern for a reason, their Iron Age fathers are likely north of Danube dwellers.

 

[Riverman]

The new Avar samples do not plot like Thracians, and their MENA admixture is three times higher.

The samples plot like post-mdv Albania but with no relation to the Albanian autosomal. But if one removes their MENA admixture they should plot closer to Himera E-V13s, that is further away from IA Bulgarian not closer. These E-V13 branches are northern for a reason, their Iron Age fathers are likely north of Danube dwellers.

Indeed, I think they were spread by Vekerzug (especially Sanislau-Nir group) too. The increase in Near Eastern ancestry is significant, but not huge, which just makes me wonder where they got it from. Roman contacts seem to be the most likely explanation.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Indeed, I think they were spread by Vekerzug (especially Sanislau-Nir group) too. The increase in Near Eastern ancestry is significant, but not huge, which just makes me wonder where they got it from. Roman contacts seem to be the most likely explanation.

The options are plenty in a post-Roman period, it could have happened within Byzantine borders or within Avar context where they mixed with resettled Byzantine citizens. 30% MENA admixture is not little. And they show no Germanic or Slavic admixture, so their IA profile without the MENA shift is not south Thracian, it's the MENA admixture that draws them closer to IA Bulgaria.

 

[Riverman]

If GAS004 is half local and half Monteru, it would imply the locals were 18% Yamnaya, 73% EEF, 3% WHG and 6% EHG. The extra EHG might be what the Bulgarian leak implying of excess Baltic ancestry. However based on the sim he does not look half Monteru as the plot does not work, this could change with the real G25, sims can shift a lot.

For the sim being too far off, he is still too close to reasonable samples, like Maros, Vatya, Nagyrev, Mezocsat locals etc. Whether he is part Monteoru is another question, might be less than half as well. Like the Nagyrev samples look like being less than half BB as well. Or he is fully Wietenberg, could be otherwise mixed, these are options as well.
In any case, I consider the sims more or less reasonable, at least for giving us a general direction on this individual in particular.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I agree that he is most likely half Monteru, but the current sim coordianate does not make that feasible. The sim needs to be have less WHG pull for it to properly project a population that can be seen the parent of the Thracians. Based on this sample, to me it's looking like the plausible MBA E-V13 population would plot like the Mygdonia LBA samples, but the sim is not lining up for this. Will see what the real G25 coordinates reveal.

 

[Riverman]

Anyway, I think its interesting that the sample is already similar to the following relevant samples from the ancient DNA record on the WHG centered or general West Eurasian PCA:
- Chotin Vekerzug E-V13 carrier
- Vatya, Nagyrev, EBA_Bulgaria, Maros, Southern Bell Beakers, lowest steppe/WHG Monteoru sample (I10481).

Therefore even if having this sample as a starting point, the very idea of extremely high WHG ancestry in the Eastern Carpathian sphere can be laid to rest. We see a general decrease from Encrusted Pottery/Transdanubia towards Transylvania. The remaining question is just how strong it will be, once we get more samples. Steppe is also rather low, that much can be said as well.

Note how similar his proportions are to the Vekerzug E-V13, that's if nothing else a remarkable coincidence:

That's all the more of a coincidence, as there is no second Vekerzug samples with exactly that proportions - which are more similar to the Mezocsat locals than to other Vekerzug samples as well, by the way. Chance or not, he is not that distant with his ratio from Mezocsat locals and the Vekerzug Chotin E-V13 carrier.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

We probably will not see a real G25 of the sample, because of it's quality. What is important is what it discloses, higher EEF than Monteru and less WHG and this difference would be more drastic if he is indeed half Monteru as his burial and haplogroup suggest. I think him plotting like IA Italians is not realistic, just does not seem right.

If he is indeed half local and half Monteru, than it is very likely the MBA E-V13s plotted just north of south Thracians, from there E-V13 expanded and shifted to the IA cline.

Iron Age cline.

We will find out when the Transylvania paper is finally declassified.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Since the Bulgarian snippets get brought up again, here we go:

Now for the E-V13. At that stage I think they belonged to a group from NW Ukraine/Moldova that lived between the steppes and the Northern Carpathians in the early Chalcolithic and early acquired and specialized in high-altitude cattle breeding, which was a special skill - perhaps through contacts with medium strict, perhaps for another reason, and they may have acquired some other specialized skill that helped them play a leading role in the Chalcolithic revolution in the northern Balkans; we will probably never see them in an urban environment or within their own remarkable material culture( Paleo: that means not in southern Balkan until IA), but they participated in the Chalcolithic revolution in the company of some essentially Mesolithic groups of European hunter-gatherers who stood at the forefront of the Chalcolithic societies of the Balkans and E-c13 are part of their company and have some early entry into the Balkans from the northeast during the Late Chalcolithic, preceding the Indo-European migration. It is possible that you are right and that their second entry into the Balkans was in an Indo-European context, in the Early Iron Age, again from the north, in the context of replacing Thracian elites with Dacian ones. Now, how they ended up in the N Carpathian/Ukrainian Steppe area, in the company of various Mesolithic European hunting tribes, since they are clearly Natufian descendants (?) is beyond me, but they have an old presence in the zep. Ukraine/Dniester/Carpathians and quite obviously, unlike Neolithic farmers, had no problem integrating into the emerging Indo-European communities.

The takeaways are:

1) He is confident E-V13 arose in the Northern Carpathians in western Ukraine and border regions of Moldova, that's a very specific descriptions, he must know something that's not public.
2) He adds that it has a very old presence there. A confident thing to say.
3) In the Balkans(Bulgaria) E-V13 will not be it's own block but is part/a minor companion among Mesolithic derived groups(I2).

So it is clear that E-V13 found among BA samples of Bulgaria is not a tribe of it's own. Also by being just some minor specialists among mesolithic derived groups, we can't expect low WHG profile. There is also the problem as to what happened to other haplos E-V13 was hanging with. If they went extinct than most likely so did the companion haplgroups, how does that make sense. But I'll leave at that, as some people are hell bent on forcing a autochonous hero story. The Pellasgian syndrome appeals to many losers in a pan-Balkan scale.

Just as E-V13 specialists existed among WHG groups, so did I2s in Transylvania, as specialists.


Since the Bulgarian mentioned western Ukraine repeatedly. there will be modern samples from this region:

ROUA Database: 300 Human Genomes from the border of Ukraine and Romania

We present a multi-layered data source (ROUA Database) providing the results of Whole Genome Sequencing of two human populations in the Carpathian Mountains region, specifically Ukraine’s Transcarpathia and Romania’s Satu Mare and Baia Mare provinces, areas previously underexplored in population...

www.biorxiv.org

Transcarpathia has a Hutsul minority, 10-20%, and the paper does state this:

The Carpathian Mountains region in Eastern Europe including Ukraine's Transcarpathia and Romania's Satu Mare and Baia Mare provinces, has been under-researched in terms of population genomics despite its rich history and ethnic diversity (Oleksyk et al., 2022). The region's socio-economic reliance on agriculture and lower levels of industrialization compared to other areas in Ukraine and Romanian provides potential for important genomic discoveries. Previous research focused on mitochondrial haplogroups but lacked comprehensive genome-wide analysis. This study
presents a cross-border population genomic analysis, sequencing 300 individuals from Transcarpathia, Satu Mare and Baia Mare provinces.

Sampling was performed with aim to capture the genetic diversity of Ukrainians across all districts of Transcarpathia (Zakarpatska Oblast), and Romainas across Satu Mare and Baia Mare provinces. Additionally, genetic samples from minority groups, specifically Wallachians and Roma, were included.

The Hutsul's are a minority in in the district of Transcarpathia, but based on the wording the sampling was conducted in a manner that was meant to capture the full diversity of the district.
I believe the locals are high in E-V13 even the non-Hutsuls have likely at around 20-25% E-V13, but the Hutsuls themselves, I think they are something along the lines of 70-85% E-V13. It's all a matter of the data being disclosed.