New big paper on Catalan Y-DNA

Sile

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Location
Australia
Ethnic group
North Alpine Italian
Y-DNA haplogroup
T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
mtDNA haplogroup
H95a1 ..Pannoni
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I have found a quick way to count the samples using the 'Find' tool in Adobe Reader.

- E1b1a (M180) : 1
- E1b1b : 191 (= 8.3%)
- E-M35* : 1
-- E-V12 : 7
-- E-V13 : 92 (= 4%)
-- E-V22 : 6
-- E-M81 : 41 (= 1.8%)
-- E-M123 : 44 (= 1.9%)
- G* : 1
- G2a : 99 (= 4.3%)
- I1 : 44 (= 1.9%)
- I2 : 115 (= 5%)
-- I2-P215 : 11 (= 0.5%)
-- I2-M223 : 37 (= 1.6%)
-- I2-P37.2 : 25 (P37.2+subclades = 2.9%)
--- I2-M26 : 38
--- I2-M423 : 4
- J1 : 55 (= 2.4%)
-- J1-P58 : 23 (= 1%)
- J2a : 169 (= 7.3%)
-- J2a-M67 : 39
-- J2a-M92 : 27
- J2b : 42 (= 1.8%)
- R1-M173* : 1
- R1a : 32 (= 1.4%)
- R1b : 1525 (= 66.3%)
- R1b-M343 (incl. V88) : 22 (= 1%)
-- R1b-L23 : 1
--- R1b-U106 : 51 (U106+Z381 = 4.8%)
---- R1b-Z381 : 59
--- R1b-P312 : 371
---- R1b-L21 : 140 (= 6.1%)
---- R1b-U152 : 199 (= 8.7%)
---- R1b-Z195 : 132 (Z195+subclades = 28.2%)
----- R1b-SRY2627 : 222
----- R1b-Z220 : 199
------ R1b-Z278 : 74
------- R1b-M153 : 21
- T : 28 (= 1.2%)

TOTAL : 2309 samples




ANALYSIS

I have checked a bit the origin of the samples. A minority are immigrants from other regions of Spain.

What we notice at first sight is that I1, I2-M223, R1a, J1, J2a , E1b1b (esp. E-M123) and T have slightly higher frequencies than previously reported in smaller studies, while R1b which is considerably lower (82% => 66%).

Interestingly there isn't any Germanic R1b-106, I1 or I2-M223 in the Balearic samples (Mallorca, Menorca). I1 and R1b-S106 appears to be most common around Barcelona and central Catalonia. Haplogroup I1 is just above 5% in coastal Catalonia.

R1b-U152 is evenly distributed in all regions. At over 8%, it is by far the highest regional frequency reported to date in the Iberian peninsula. Since the Mediterranean coast of Spain was never known to be Celtic speaking, it looks like the Romans played a bigger role in spreading U152 in Iberia than the Celts.

There is a hotspot of G2a around Lleida (24 of of 223 samples, or 10.8%), Central Catalonia (15 out of 234 samples, or 6.4%) and around Barcelona, but there is very little of it in the Valencian region. Lleida is the inland Pyrenees region, which would have served as a refuge for the Neolithic population, like most mountainous parts of Europe.

There is a hotspot of J1 in Girona (both M267 and P58), where it makes up 8.3% of the population (18 of 219 samples). But otherwise J1 is well distributed in most regions except Lleida and Mallorca which only have one sample.

There is a hotspot of E-M123 in Castelló (16 out of 144 samples, or 11.1%), but that haplogroup is absent from the Balearic samples.

Most of the T1a samples are concentrated around Central Catalonia, Camp de Tarragona and especially Penedès (7 out of 164 samples, or 4.3%), but T1a is also found in Valencia, Mallorca, Barcelona and Girona. None in Lleide or Pireneu.

J1-P58, E-M123 and T1a are all potentially of Jewish or Arabic origin, although the Greeks and Romans could also have contributed in Catalonia.
 
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That's not exactly Catalonia, because it includes also Valencia and Balearic Islands.
 
Yes, that's the Catalan-speaking regions of Spain, or former County of Barcelona.

correct, and including the inland Aragon province


J2a seems to agree with the pheonician marker ( as once also stated by natgen)

R1b-Z195 sticks out


with the other new paper .......from arabia to Iberia ...........you basically have all of iberia covered
 
I have found a quick way to count the samples using the 'Find' tool in Adobe Reader.

- E1b1b : 190 (= 8.3%)
-- E-V12 : 7
-- E-V13 : 92 (= 4%)
-- E-V22 : 6
-- E-M81 : 41 (= 1.8%)
-- E-M123 : 44 (= 1.9%)
- G2a : 99 (= 4.3%)
- I1 : 44 (= 1.9%)
- I2 : 115 (= 5%)
-- I2-P215 : 11 (= 0.5%)
-- I2-M223 : 37 (= 1.6%)
-- I2-P37.2 : 25 (P37.2+subclades = 2.9%)
--- I2-M26 : 38
--- I2-M423 : 4
- J1 : 55 (= 2.4%)
-- J1-P58 : 23 (= 1%)
- J2a : 169 (= 7.3%)
-- J2a-M67 : 39
-- J2a-M92 : 27
- J2b : 42 (= 1.8%)
- R1a : 32 (= 1.4%)
- R1b : 1525 (= 66.3%)
- R1b-M343 (incl. V88) : 22 (= 1%)
-- R1b-L23 : 1
--- R1b-U106 : 51 (U106+Z381 = 4.8%)
---- R1b-Z381 : 59
--- R1b-P312 : 371
---- R1b-L21 : 140 (= 6.1%)
---- R1b-U152 : 199 (= 8.7%)
---- R1b-Z195 : 132 (Z195+subclades = 28.2%)
----- R1b-SRY2627 : 222
----- R1b-Z220 : 199
------ R1b-Z278 : 74
------- R1b-M153 : 21
- T : 28 (= 1.2%)

TOTAL : 2299 samples


The paper says that they tested approximately 2500 samples. The data sheet only 55 pages with 42 samples per page, so it should be 2310 samples minus one line for the header. That leaves 10 samples unaccounted for. I must have forgotten some haplogroup(s). If someone finds the mistake, please let me know.


ANALYSIS

I have checked a bit the origin of the samples. A minority are immigrants from other regions of Spain.

What we notice at first sight is that I1, I2-M223, R1a, J1, J2a , E1b1b (esp. E-M123) and T have slightly higher frequencies than previously reported in smaller studies, while R1b which is considerably lower (82% => 66%).

Interestingly there isn't any Germanic R1b-106, I1 or I2-M223 in the Balearic samples (Mallorca, Menorca). I1 and R1b-S106 appears to be most common around Barcelona and central Catalonia. Haplogroup I1 is just above 5% in coastal Catalonia.

R1b-U152 is evenly distributed in all regions. At over 8%, it is by far the highest regional frequency reported to date in the Iberian peninsula. Since the Mediterranean coast of Spain was never known to be Celtic speaking, it looks like the Romans played a bigger role in spreading U152 in Iberia than the Celts.

There is a hotspot of G2a around Lleida (24 of of 223 samples, or 10.8%), Central Catalonia (15 out of 234 samples, or 6.4%) and around Barcelona, but there is very little of it in the Valencian region. Lleida is the inland Pyrenees region, which would have served as a refuge for the Neolithic population, like most mountainous parts of Europe.

There is a hotspot of J1 in Girona (both M267 and P58), where it makes up 8.3% of the population (18 of 219 samples). But otherwise J1 is well distributed in most regions except Lleida and Mallorca which only have one sample.

There is a hotspot of E-M123 in Castelló (16 out of 144 samples, or 11.1%), but that haplogroup is absent from the Balearic samples.

Most of the T1a samples are concentrated around Central Catalonia, Camp de Tarragona and especially Penedès (7 out of 164 samples, or 4.3%), but T1a is also found in Valencia, Mallorca, Barcelona and Girona. None in Lleide or Pireneu.

J1-P58, E-M123 and T1a are all potentially of Jewish or Arabic origin, although the Greeks and Romans could also have contributed in Catalonia.

I can only see missing is ..............R2 , C* and K* ......and maybe plain R1b
 
I can only see missing is ..............R2 , C* and K* ......and maybe plain R1b

Well done. There are indeed 3x C*, 1x K* and 2x R2. That's five. There are still five missing.
 
Well done. There are indeed 3x C*, 1x K* and 2x R2. That's five. There are still five missing.

your counting is as good as mine.....that's six
 
correct, and including the inland Aragon province


J2a seems to agree with the pheonician marker ( as once also stated by natgen)

R1b-Z195 sticks out


with the other new paper .......from arabia to Iberia ...........you basically have all of iberia covered
There was never a Phoenician settlement in Catalonia. So no, it's not of phoenician origin. J2a-M67 is also common in the Caucasus, in Greece, Italy, etc.
 
There was never a Phoenician settlement in Catalonia. So no, it's not of phoenician origin. J2a-M67 is also common in the Caucasus, in Greece, Italy, etc.

oh, yes there was...........

let me know what is the original iberian marker and we can discuss further(y)
 
oh, yes there was...........

let me know what is the original iberian marker and we can discuss further(y)
phoenician settlements in Catalonia ? Since when ? They traded with the greeks and iberians, but didn't have a settlement of their own in Catalonia.
 
There was never a Phoenician settlement in Catalonia. So no, it's not of phoenician origin. J2a-M67 is also common in the Caucasus, in Greece, Italy, etc.

There was never any Roman or Slavic or Mesopotamian settlement in North America, and yet all these peoples' DNA is there now. Try to keep an open mind. People move over the centuries. The Phoenicians arrived in Spain 3000 years ago. Since then, the population of Iberia has been mixed countless times and re-exported to other regions (mostly Latin America, but not only). Immigration is not a recent phenomenon. Roman citizens moved freely inside a vast empire. The 16th century Netherlands was built on Protestant immigrants from various countries in Europe (Belgium, France, Germany and even Spain and Portugal). I don't know how you can seriously think that it is improbable that in the last 3000 years some men from Andalusia or Murcia moved up the coast to Valencia and Catalonia. People aren't immobile statues.

Anyway the presence of haplogroup R2 in Catalonia confirms that some people of Phoenician descent ended up in Catalonia. Nobody else could have brought R2.
 
There was never any Roman or Slavic or Mesopotamian settlement in North America, and yet all these peoples' DNA is there now.
But there's been massive immigration of Europeans to North-America. Not a good analogy. Where's the phoenicians settlements in Catalonia ?

Try to keep an open mind. People move over the centuries. . I don't know how you can seriously think that it is improbable that in the last 3000 years some men from Andalusia or Murcia moved up the coast to Valencia and Catalonia. People aren't immobile statues.
Of course they move inside of Iberia, but no such much as to be the reason for the whole 8% J2a. It's not even clear were it came from the J2 in South Spain to begin with. Also, Catalonia has a different y-DNA profile than Andalusia or Murcia, in terms of frequencies (80% of R1b).

Also you have to keep in mind this study was not about haplogroup distribution for the general population (as the standard studies do) , but about it's correlation with surnames. In other words, there is plenty of people having the same repeated surname in this study (which is the whole point), so it's not representative in terms of the general population. Obviously in a sample of more than 2000 people in a standard popuilation study there would be repetition in surnames, but not as much as in this one.

But one thing that makes me wonder...why you attribut this 8-10% of J2 in Spain to Phoenicians, but then the 20% in Italy or Greece, or the 7% in France, you attribute it to different populations.
 
Anyway the presence of haplogroup R2 in Catalonia confirms that some people of Phoenician descent ended up in Catalonia. Nobody else could have brought R2.
confirms ? R2 is not even common in Lebanon. It's much more frequent in the Caucasus.
 
But there's been massive immigration of Europeans to North-America. Not a good analogy. Where's the phoenicians settlements in Catalonia ?


Of course they move inside of Iberia, but no such much as to be the reason for the whole 8% J2a. It's not even clear were it came from the J2 in South Spain to begin with. Also, Catalonia has a different y-DNA profile than Andalusia or Murcia, in terms of frequencies (80% of R1b).

Also you have to keep in mind this study was not about haplogroup distribution for the general population (as the standard studies do) , but about it's correlation with surnames. In other words, there is plenty of people having the same repeated surname in this study (which is the whole point), so it's not representative in terms of the general population. Obviously in a sample of more than 2000 people in a standard popuilation study there would be repetition in surnames, but not as much as in this one.

But one thing that makes me wonder...why you attribut this 8-10% of J2 in Spain to Phoenicians, but then the 20% in Italy or Greece, or the 7% in France, you attribute it to different populations.

The Phoenicians were also in continental Italy (coastal Etruria), alongside with the Etruscans, who were also originally from the Near East. But I agree that there were no Phoenician enclaves in Catalonia. Phoenician enclaves in Iberia were in the southern coasts, from where they traded with the Iberians further north.
 
The Phoenicians were also in continental Italy (coastal Etruria), alongside with the Etruscans, who were also originally from the Near East. But I agree that there were no Phoenician enclaves in Catalonia. Phoenician enclaves in Iberia were in the southern coasts, from where they traded with the Iberians further north.

Phoenicians were never in coastal Etruria. There were Phoenician colonies in west Sicily and south Sardinia only. The origins of the Etruscans still aren't clear.

greek-phoenician-colonies.jpg
 
Phoenicians were never in coastal Etruria. There were Phoenician colonies in west Sicily and south Sardinia only. The origins of the Etruscans still aren't clear.

greek-phoenician-colonies.jpg

False:

"Phoenician interest in central Italy, as in Sardinia, was motivated primarily by the metals trade; the wealth of the Etruscan cities also rendered them profitable commercial markets for Phoenician goods. The earliest and clearest evidence of Phoenician presence in Italy may be found on the island of Pithekoussai (modern Ischia) off the coast of southern Campania. An early Euboean foundation, the island housed an active community of Phoenician traders by the late eighth century BC, as finds of Phoenician pottery (some with graffiti) attest. In all likelihood, the islet, situated strategically en route to coastal Etruria, served as a "free port" at which native Greeks and Near Easterners mingled freely.The primary objective of Phoenician trade in Italy was, however, the northern Etrurian heartland with its ore-rich deposits of copper, lead, iron, and silver...; from an early date, it attracted Phoenician prospectors, commerciants, and artisans, who left in their wake a variety of imported goods, including luxury vessels in repoussé silver. The latter, locally produced by resident Phoenician craftsmen, may well have been offered as diplomatic gifts to local leaders in order to secure commercial mineral rights. Phoenician influence is also evident in the dramatic appearance, in the late eighth century BC, of a strongly orientalizing artistic tradition in Etruria.

Imported pottery finds suggest that the flourishing northern Etruscan coastal cities of Populonia and Vetulonia may have formed the primary bases of operation for the Phoenicians. Phoenician knowledge of Etrurian mineral resources may have come through contact with the native inhabitants of Sardinia or through the Cypriots, both of whom were involved in the Tyrrhenian metals trade."


http://books.google.com/books?id=sm...v=onepage&q=phoenicians italy etruria&f=false

Page 179.

Better learn history from books, not from "maps".

Regarding the Etruscans, the most recent genetic study on the subject can be seen here:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105920

From a historical, artistic, cultural & linguistic perspective the Oriental/Eastern origin of the Etruscans is also the one that has the most going for it:

http://www.i-italy.org/bloggers/364...northern-italian-ideologically-biased-history
 

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