New I2b map

Shetop said:
Greek Macedonia is a region where significant numbers of Slavs had settled. It also today has much larger population than West FYROM. And I know about two studies which report higher R1a than I2a-Din percentage there (one study says 2 times higher).
Also Bulgaria for example is a Slavic country which does not have 2:1 ratio you wrote about.

So, I would say there was no strict ratio between I2a-Din and R1a among Slavs. But as it is obvious I2a-Din was in general more frequent than R1a among South Slavs.
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I agree with your reasoning to a point. Data show that Slavs are higher in R1a. Somebody in a forum about haplogroup R1a was saying that there are 2 subclades of R1a and they both appear to be Slavic. I was thinking that if Slavic invasions happened in two steps, first R1a slavs came in, and then I2a. But again Macedonian Slavs are mostly I2a. So it makes no sense. Could it be that the lab found it wrong?
 
albanopolis said:
I agree with your reasoning to a point. Data show that Slavs are higher in R1a. Somebody in a forum about haplogroup R1a was saying that there are 2 subclades of R1a and they both appear to be Slavic. I was thinking that if Slavic invasions happened in two steps, first R1a slavs came in, and then I2a. But again Macedonian Slavs are mostly I2a. So it makes no sense. Could it be that the lab found it wrong?
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I don't understand. Why do you think Slavic invasions "happened in two steps"?
 
Yetos said:
Semi correct.

Greek Makedonia has a 23% R1a much of it fits with Eastern R1a the one you call Slav,
But Greek Makedonia has also significant diversity of R1a, which can be consider either as sink, either as homeland of R1a.
the R1a of Greece follows a downstream to Greece the one we known from history as the Dorian way. stops at 13% at Locri and follows a 5-8% to all Dorian lands, except Epizzephyreian Locri which is above 10%,
that road which is certified historically and genetically show the origin and genetics of Dorian descent,

in whole Italy (Magna Grecia) the biggest R1a concentrations are there where Dorians settled.

so the myth of R1a as Slavic mark is just a fairy tale,
in fact the I2a Din which has 2 major concentrations in Dinaric Alps and Skopje is better mark than R1a which expand even to Magna Grecia, a land which Slavs never settled to have such concentrations.

it seems like Slavs stop at Makedonia, and only families and followers via marriages with Palaiologos family went more south to Helmos mountains Peloponese,
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I have heard stories that slavs had settlments all over continental Greece. I have met Greeks named Ivan. It did not sound Greek to me. But R1a being Ballkanic is not widely accepted, I think. I am not genetist so I rely on what others say. R1a in Italy by the way is at minimum values of 3%. Had R1a being Ballkanic like e-v13, or J would have had a larger impact on Italy.
 
albanopolis said:
I am trying to justify the lack of I2a in Albanians of Macedonia.
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I guess it is for the same reason as for the lack of I2a in Northern Albania and Kosovar Albanians.
So either Slavs settled West FYROM in minor numbers or maybe that region was (sometime after early middle ages) resettled by Albanians Nortwest from there.
 
albanopolis said:
I am trying to justify the lack of I2a in Albanians of Macedonia.
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Their genes are more neolithic than Albanians from Albania. Mountain areas are often refuges for old genes under attack. The South-Albanian I2a is I2a2b, attributed to Indo-European migrations from central europe in the Bronze Age, also found at 2-4% in ex-Jugoslavia (that's all that is left of it over there).
 
kamani said:
Their genes are more neolithic than Albanians from Albania. Mountain areas are often refuges for old genes under attack. The South-Albanian I2a is I2a2b, attributed to Indo-European migrations from central europe in the Bronze Age, also found at 2-4% in ex-Jugoslavia (that's all that is left of it over there).
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What is I2a2b a haplogroup or a haplotype? If it is a haplotype it doesn't matter is a small variation in the same group. I have read that there are two major I2a Haplogruops Northern dinaric and Southern dinaric. I have no Idea if its true or not, but I have not seen any such division. So if I2a2b is a haplotype is still slavic.
 
albanopolis said:
What is I2a2b a haplogroup or a haplotype? If it is a haplotype it doesn't matter is a small variation in the same group. I have read that there are two major I2a Haplogruops Northern dinaric and Southern dinaric. I have no Idea if its true or not, but I have not seen any such division. So if I2a2b is a haplotype is still slavic.
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It is a haplogroup associated with late Bronze Age Celtic La Tene Culture (and with Celts in general).
https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupil38/summary
 
@Albanoplois

so your problem is why Gegs have not high R1a, while R1a is higher in else?

In Italy in Greek colonies R1a reach 8% and especially in sarento is 13% like in Lokris where Dorian settled.
there is a search that gives 24% in Lokri Italy.
the R1a in Greece seems to be 3500 years old,
and Balkans so tremendous diversity in R1a,
It can be due to a sink phenomena , or it means that Balkans was a homelend of R1a.

we also see R1a in Thraciians means is older than Slavic migration. although is another diversity.
 
Yetos said:
@Albanoplois

so your problem is why Gegs have not high R1a, while R1a is higher in else?

In Italy in Greek colonies R1a reach 8% and especially in sarento is 13% like in Lokris where Dorian settled.
there is a search that gives 24% in Lokri Italy.
the R1a in Greece seems to be 3500 years old,
and Balkans so tremendous diversity in R1a,
It can be due to a sink phenomena , or it means that Balkans was a homelend of R1a.

we also see R1a in Thraciians means is older than Slavic migration. although is another diversity.
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Cimmeranians are related to Thracians and they also where R1a, they also lived on the north of the black sea before Scythians and sarmatians arrived
 
albanopolis said:
Thanks! There have been other studies who claim 2% Sardinian I subclade. About R1a in Albanians in Macedonia. Is it really slavic. I don't see much I2a AMONG Albanians. Usually the presence of I2a is higher than R1a among slavs. What is your opinion?
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Sardinian clade in Balkans? I'm surprised honestly, i have heard of an I2a1b clade of French type found there but never about the Sardinian one.

Prengu said:
Funny think is in Battaglia (et al. 2008) study, is the opposite, found only 1.5 % R1a but 9.5% I2 among Albanians of Fyrom.
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I'm not aware of this study.
 
zanipolo said:
correct, the celts assimilated the Illyrians BEFORE the Romans arrived. The celts even failed in an invasion of Greece at the time.
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The only CELTICIZED Illyrians were northern Dalmatians and some Pannonians, so the Illyrians of Croatia, but that started happening around 300 BC, which is "close" to the roman invasion.

What I am saying is a bit different: the Illyrians themselves were a mix of Bronze Age (2000 BC) Central-European
invaders with native Pelasgians. Because invaders always take the arrable lands, you would find the Pelasgians more hidden in the mountains (North-Albania), and the Central-Europeans more concentrated in the low-lands (South-Albania). This explains the I2a2b (Central-European) found mainly in South-Albanians, and the 43% E-v13 (Pelasgian) in Kosovo.
The Greeks knew this too, in their mythology Illyrus, Gallus, and Celtus were brothers. The Greeks were not in contact with Croatian Illyrians, they were in contact with South-Illyrians.
 
The presence of 12b in the area between Ukraine and Romania/Moldova seems to be more compatible with the legacy of Bessarabia Germans who immigrated over there (mainly from South Germany) starting from 1814 up to 1842, reaching the number of 90.000 persons and more during the XX century.
 
Any data concerning the russian area inhabited by the Volga Germans? In the area a higher frequency of germanic haplogroups should be found.
 
apulomilan said:
The presence of 12b in the area between Ukraine and Romania/Moldova seems to be more compatible with the legacy of Bessarabia Germans who immigrated over there (mainly from South Germany) starting from 1814 up to 1842, reaching the number of 90.000 persons and more during the XX century.
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so, a population from a region poor enough concerning an HG could have developped this HG at high enough scale in a target region where its emigrants did never become dominent, an that at modern times?
 
apulomilan said:
Any data concerning the russian area inhabited by the Volga Germans? In the area a higher frequency of germanic haplogroups should be found.
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this term volgaGermans seems to be a new term as its only appeared recently, at best from what i gathered its basically a Bastarnae and Sarmatian mix of people.
Can you supply any details of what these volgaGermans are?
 
to APULOMILAN

sorry, I did a mistake, thinking we were speaking about Y-I2b = new I2a1b (as a whole the "DIN" one)!
then, neither the origin region nor the "target" territory is full of Y-I2b, ex I1c, newly I2a2 and it temperates my remark - nevertheless, my remark, even concerning the righ HG, is still the same: a ~6-8% HG in the region of origin passing to 4-6% in the colonized region would require the colonizators would make ~50% of their new 'home' population: I find it very heavy! even taking in account only males -
interesting to know about the 'Bessarabian Germans' nevertheless -thanks
 
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