New study concentrating on E-M2 and E-M78

[kingdavid]

the research i am talking about is this http://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6145/565
they found 5.8% e-m81 out of 1204 sardinians{thats pretty big sample and not shy number }
file:///C:/Users/guardsb/Downloads/Low-PassDNASequencingof1200SardiniansReconstructsEuropeanY-ChromosomePhylogeny.pdf

 

[Angela]

the research i am talking about is this http://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6145/565
they found 5.8% e-m81 out of 1204 sardinians{thats pretty big sample and not shy number }
file:///C:/Users/guardsb/Downloads/Low-PassDNASequencingof1200SardiniansReconstructsEuropeanY-ChromosomePhylogeny.pdf

Did I say it was a small number? I think, if you check, I said it isn't a small number, although it is undoubtedly a minority of the y lineages in Sardinia.

Plus, you said it was the Trombetta study, not the Francalacci study. I'm not obsessed with the Carthaginians. I don't have the percentages of E-M81 by paper by area memorized. I didn't know you were talking about the Francalacci paper. Obviously, the Francalacci sample of 1200 is very good.

So? Have I or any one else here ever denied that there was some impact in southern Sardinia from various migrations? Well, northern Sardinia too, but of a different type. Didn't I specifically say that E-M81 in southern Sardinia makes sense from that perspective, even if the A lineage does not?

 

[kingdavid]

Did I say it was a small number? I think, if you check, I said it isn't a small number, although it is undoubtedly a minority of the y lineages in Sardinia.

Plus, you said it was the Trombetta study, not the Francalacci study. I'm not obsessed with the Carthaginians. I don't have the percentages of E-M81 by paper by area memorized. I didn't know you were talking about the Francalacci paper. Obviously, the Francalacci sample of 1200 is very good.

So? Have I or any one else here ever denied that there was some impact in southern Sardinia from various migrations? Well, northern Sardinia too, but of a different type. Didn't I specifically say that E-M81 in southern Sardinia makes sense from that perspective, even if the A lineage does not?

my mistake

but you can also admitt you were wrong when you thought that in the paper they speak
about a3-m13 as mesolitic
7.6 ky
doesn't mean 7600 bc late mesolitic it means 5600 bc neolithic period .....

i don't agree with you 1204 samples is more than enough to reflect this small island ....

 

[Azzurro]

azurro is a good man
he uploaded me and my family ftdna rqaw data to my heritage
and he didn't have to
i remmber is kind hourt
now to the subject i score 14% north central italian in gencove { yes i know this site is joke and use imoputation but still so maybe i do have some titus in me}

there was a research in sardinia who found 5.6% e-m81 thats not small % it was higher than e-m34 and e-m78-v13 in that specific study
unfortuntley i don't know from where trombolta took those samples .....

Thanks for the reponse brother! As you know its always my pleasure

 

[Azzurro]

Well, regardless of where the sample was taken, then, the Carthaginians are irrelevant if it's dated to the Neolithic in Sardinia itself, yes?

The date of the earliest Neolithic in Sardinia, Cardial, is just around this time, so I suppose there could have been an overlap with any Mesolithic people who remained, but I think it's probably more likely this y line came with the Neolithic settlers, as I said initially.

If the E-M81 was from samples taken from Cagliari, then, yes, that line could be from Carthaginians, or maybe it was Saracen raiders from later in history. There are lots of possibilities. This is the problem with trying to use modern dna to assign "ethnicity" or a certain migration to the presence of certain y lines. Sometimes it's proven true, and sometimes it isn't.

Goodness, King John, you seem to have become infected with Azzurro's fascination with the Carthaginians. Well, I suppose if an Italian can so identify with the arch-enemy of Rome, it's possible. You'd have to identify with Titus to match that!

I certainly wouldn't take these minor y lines as necessarily having a direct correspondence with autosomal results. In the Dienekes K12 run, the Sardinians came out as 2.6% Northwest African. Yet, all he had were the samples generally from the Barbagia, so it's unlikely that had anything to do with any Carthaginians. At the same time, Otzi came out part NorthWest African too.

It just points out the limitations of Admixture runs based on modern clusters.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...0SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit?hl=en_US&hl=en_US#gid=0

[/IMG]



Btw, I wasn't able to find info on where "particular samples" were taken. Could you point me to where you got that info?

Your obessed with me ah? You have to mention me on every post.

First off Southern Italians largely joined Hannibal and were anti-Roman

“[FONT=&quot]After Cannae, several south Italian cities allied themselves to Hannibal: the [/FONT]Apulian[FONT=&quot] towns of [/FONT]Salapia[FONT=&quot], [/FONT]Arpi[FONT=&quot] and [/FONT]Herdonia[FONT=&quot] and many of the [/FONT]Lucanians[FONT=&quot]. Mago marched south with a Carthaginian army detachment and, some weeks later, the [/FONT]Bruttians[FONT=&quot] joined him. Simultaneously, Hannibal marched north with part of his forces and was joined by the [/FONT]Hirpini[FONT=&quot]and the [/FONT]Caudini[FONT=&quot], two of the three [/FONT]Samnite[FONT=&quot]cantons. The greatest gain was the second largest city of Italy, [/FONT]Capua[FONT=&quot], when Hannibal's army marched into [/FONT]Campania[FONT=&quot] in 216 BC. The inhabitants of Capua held limited Roman citizenship and the aristocracy was linked to the Romans via marriage and friendship, but the possibility of becoming the supreme city of Italy after the evident Roman disasters proved too strong a temptation. The treaty between them and Hannibal can be described as an agreement of friendship, since the Capuans had no obligations, but provided the harbour through which Hannibal was reinforced.[/FONT]^[26][FONT=&quot]By 215 BC, Hannibal's alliance system covered the bulk of southern Italy, save for the Greek cities along the coast (except Croton, which was conquered by his allies), Rhegium, and the Latin colonies of Beneventum, Luceria in Samnium, Venusia in Apulia, Brundisium and Paestum.<sup>[27]”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Punic_War#Establishing_a_Carthaginian_alliance_in_Italy

Same is true for Northern Italy as well, most of the Cisalpine Gauls joined Hannibal eagerly, if anything Hannibal is a hero to Italians.

Second, are you seriously trying to compare Hannibal to the genocidal monster that was Titus? It is no where near the same.</sup>



[/FONT]

 

[Angela]

^^You don't have a clue how Italians feel about anything. How could you?

Now stop making everything about you and get back on topic. Must you ruin every thread about ancient dna in Italy? We were having a perfectly civil discussion until you decided to insert yourself and your private feelings and sensitivities.

 

[Azzurro]

Its funny how you delete my post mentioning you abuse your power, lol reality check much?

 

[Azzurro]

^^You don't have a clue how Italians feel about anything.

Now stop making everything about you and get back on topic. Must you ruin every thread about ancient dna in Italy? We were having a perfectly civil discussion until you decided to insert yourself and your private feelings.

shut your mouth you menopausal B****

 

[Angela]

I wanted originally to remove a post which was only a personal attack so as to maintain the dignity of this site.

However, I'm getting tired of whining, childish, perhaps mentally disturbed members ranting, insulting, and otherwise degrading me, and just silently moderating such posts. If anyone wants to know why infractions are issued, why they accumulate, and why some people are then automatically banned, this is a great example. No infractions were issued until after the first insult. In fact the banned member wasn't even part of the conversation.

This is what I deal with on a constant basis from certain young men on this site. I don't think I need to point out that this kind of vitriol is not dealt out when male moderators give infractions. The blatant sexism and vulgarity is unbelievable. This is the recourse of people who can't compete in debate, and can't even, in this case, take a mild joke.

One thing that someone in his twenties or older should have learned is how to control him or herself in debate or disagreement. In this context the consequences for behaving this way are mild; try this in a professional setting, and you're toast.

 

[Salento]

Well, hoops.........
The Messapi of South Puglia and the population of Gargano didn’t join Hannibal, they actually helped the defeated left over Roman Army after Cannae.
From Wikipedia:
“During Hannibal's invasion of Italy in the Second Punic War (218-201 BC) the Messapii remained loyal to the Romans. The Battle of Cannae, where Hannibal routed the forces of the Romans and their Italic allies, was fought in the heart of the neighbouring Peucetii territory. The Roman survivors were welcomed into nearby Canusium. Part of the final stages of the war were fought out at Monte Gargano, in the northernmost part of Apulia, in the territory of the Dauni.”

 

[Angela]

my mistake

but you can also admitt you were wrong when you thought that in the paper they speak
about a3-m13 as mesolitic
7.6 ky
doesn't mean 7600 bc late mesolitic it means 5600 bc neolithic period .....

i don't agree with you 1204 samples is more than enough to reflect this small island ....

I think we're having a communication problem.

This is what I said:
" Obviously, the Francalacci sample of 1200 is very good. "

How do you get from that that I think 1200 samples isn't good enough? You initially didn't say that the figure came from Francalacci. You said Trombetta. I didn't even know how many samples were in the Trombetta paper for Sardinia.

As to a3-m13, I don't know how many times I have to say that it probably isn't Mesolithic in Sardinia. Since the date given was so close to the very earliest Neolithic in Sardinia I thought there was a possibility of an overlap and it having been absorbed by Neolithic people from prior hunter-gatherers on the island, but I didn't think it was likely. Otherwise, why would I say this to you when you first brought it up. Clearly, I know what dates are being discussed.

" I didn't comb through the supplement, but from this paragraph, the coalescence age is  >7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 .

So, could we be talking about 6,000 BC or around the time of the Neolithic? Could it have been very early in the Neolithic Near East and swept up in the migrations, and then straight to Sardegna, or even to the Balkans and then later to Sardegna in the Chalcolithic? I think that places like Sardegna can very easily shelter rare haplogroups that have drifted out of the gene pool in areas where there have been large scale migrations, as in the Middle East, for example, which was inundated with men with "J" lines. "

 

[Jovialis]

I wanted originally to remove a post which was only a personal attack so as to maintain the dignity of this site.

However, I'm getting tired of whining, childish, perhaps mentally disturbed members ranting, insulting, and otherwise degrading me, and just silently moderating such posts. If anyone wants to know why infractions are issued, why they accumulate, and why some people are then automatically banned, this is a great example. No infractions were issued until after the first insult. In fact the banned member wasn't even part of the conversation.

This is what I deal with on a constant basis from certain young men on this site. I don't think I need to point out that this kind of vitriol is not dealt out when male moderators give infractions. The blatant sexism and vulgarity is unbelievable. This is the recourse of people who can't compete in debate, and can't even, in this case, take a mild joke.

One thing that someone in his twenties or older should have learned is how to control him or herself in debate or disagreement. In this context the consequences for behaving this way are mild; try this in a professional setting, and you're toast.

I wholeheartedly agree, Angela. It's completely unacceptable that this kind of disrespect be tolerated. I share your sentiments that you've been the target of disgusting provocations. The comments on this page highlight the kind of disrespect that must be dealt with swiftly.

To the rest of the forum users, this isn't the street, or some low-brow setting; this is an academic forum, and you're expected to behave properly. Any language that unfairly targets individuals on their race, ethnicity, religion, or gender, will be punished.

 

[kingdavid]

dont ban azurro is a good man

 

[Jovialis]

dont ban azurro is a good man

Don't ban him?! On what planet do you think his comments would be acceptable? Are you blind?

It's an accumulation of infractions which he deserved for each of the posts that merited it.

 

[AdeoF]

I wanted originally to remove a post which was only a personal attack so as to maintain the dignity of this site.

However, I'm getting tired of whining, childish, perhaps mentally disturbed members ranting, insulting, and otherwise degrading me, and just silently moderating such posts. If anyone wants to know why infractions are issued, why they accumulate, and why some people are then automatically banned, this is a great example. No infractions were issued until after the first insult. In fact the banned member wasn't even part of the conversation.

This is what I deal with on a constant basis from certain young men on this site. I don't think I need to point out that this kind of vitriol is not dealt out when male moderators give infractions. The blatant sexism and vulgarity is unbelievable. This is the recourse of people who can't compete in debate, and can't even, in this case, take a mild joke.

One thing that someone in his twenties or older should have learned is how to control him or herself in debate or disagreement. In this context the consequences for behaving this way are mild; try this in a professional setting, and you're toast.

I know this is off-topic but a lot of people around my age don't really know how to do that very well. It's good that you banned him, talking like that will just create a wild fire. It's not even like your mad and your not thinking about what happens next, it's post when you think about what to type lol.

 

[Salento]

dont ban azurro is a good man

Azzurro knew that he might get banned. There’s a history of confrontation by the 2.
To Angela: You are Ok.
To Azzurro: Not Cool.

 

[Ygorcs]

"Though not definitive, the association of Afro-Asiatic populations with R-V88 is strongly suggestive to me of the possibility that some western Near Eastern Farmers spoke Afro-Asiatic languages." > I think this hypothesis of Razib Khan, unlike most of what he writes about genetics, looks a bit far-fetched, especially because he says it is "strongly suggestive", which I don't think it is. Suggestive, yes, but not strongly so. I can't see any reason why Chadic couldn't already have been spoken in North Africa (maybe to the west of Berber before its further expansion) and have been picked up by the R1b-V88 settlers as it was already the main language family of the region (and, importantly, of the women they married/procreated with). Not always the conqueror immigrants manage to impose their language instead of absorbing the local language and most of the local culture. If Proto-Semitic (or Pre-Proto-Semitic more specifically) was already spoken in the Near East, we'd expect Chadic to be much more closely related to Semitic, but no, it's actually the most divergent of all Afro-Asiatic branches. So, I think it is more likely that Chadic was the descendant of one among the 1st AA languages to have been spoken in North Africa.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I'm not an expert in linguistics but,
to me, the most likely source of Afro-Asiatic seems to be the Natufians,
or maybe the common ancestor of the Natufians, the Ibero-Maurisians and the Halfan people,
in short, the E1b1b1-M35 clade

 

[bicicleur 2]

there was an interludium in the Green Sahara : the 8.2 ka climate event, which lasted a few centuries and during which the Sahara was empty
the dispersal of these main Y-haplogroups must have happened between 8.2 ka and 5.9 ka, which is the end of the Green Sahara

 

[IronSide]

Another male lineage suggestive of the West Eurasian origin of AA languages is haplogroup T, its distribution in Africa is concentrated in the Cushitic branch of AA, R1b-V88 is strong in Chadic speakers but also Berbers and Copts, while J in Semitic speakers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184#Africa

All Afro-Asiatic groups in Africa have major Levantine Neolithic autosomal admixture, thats another evidence.

Linguistic evidence for dispersal of AA languages with farming in Africa http://www.jolr.ru/files/(9)jlr2009-1(95-106).pdf