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New Study on Bourbon DNA by Gerard Lucotte

Estimados Sres,

Hay una linea de investigacion especifica sobre Alfonso XII y su descendencia dirigida por el profesor Lucotte.

Esta linea de investigacion me impacta persona y directamente, y por este motivo intervengo usando la posibilidad del pseudo con respeto a las normas de este forum, por razones obvias de discrecion.

Solo quisiera hacer hincapié en el siguiento punto dado la puesta tan importante de estas investigaciones tanto ante la Historia y la ciencia como ante la familia: ha demostrado el pr Lucotte que el haplogroup al que pertenece la linea paterna agnaticia (podriamos decir "salica") de Bourbon/Borbon es el Z-381. Como si de cualquiera otra investigacion cientifica se tratara, opino que no se debe dar por sabida la identidad genética de tal o tal persona con la antedicha linea Z381 mientras no se haya averiguado en el caso de la referida persona, por mucho apellido y apariencia que se tenga.
 
Thank Heavens for Google Translate!

From what I understood, you are not convinced about the haplogroup of the Bourbons? It should be R1b-U106 (Z381* subclade). This was established back in 2013 by Larmuseau and others. Here: https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2013211

It is only personal curiosity on my part about the Y-chromosomal haplogroup of the current Spanish Royal Family, as well as that of people such as Luis Alfonso (Duke of Anjou to his supporters). I just want to know if Queen Isabella II was "loyal" to her husband or not.

P. S. Next time please write in English. Google Translate is nice, but you shouldn't get too attached to it! :D
 
Dear sir, I don't understand: I repplied (in English) to your kind message this morning and nothing appears on the blog...? did you received it?
 
Apparently not. Your first post is in Spanish. I used Google Translate for it and wrote a reply. I haven't seen another message from you.

You may not have sent it properly. There isn't anything in my inbox either.

Don't worry about it :) Just send it again!
 
dear venko2257 and other members,

First of all, I apologize for my bad English language, which is not my native one.

I fully agree with you and I am definately convinced about the Z-381 haplogroup of the Bourbons/Borbon, which was researched and found by genetician prof Lucotte.

What I meant in my previous message is that I think nobody should - from now on - be regarded as a member of the said dynasty (or any otherone) but those who have personally tested and been confirmed such an identity. Times are changing quickly: being officially recognized as such and legally assuming the said surname does no longer seem irrebuttable a presumtion.

You mentioned prince Sixte-Henri de Bourbon Parme: he "shew" his blood and contributed to the historic scientific work of prof Lucotte.

In my capacity as a descendant of an "illegitimate" son (what a dark and shameful word in 2019), I feel mostly important that science assume its mission in this field. It seems to me that, from now on, time of pride and appearances reign (in this field) has gone or will collapse before long. My main expectation is the advent of time of science, which is time of truth and justice.



 
I am sorry if I have offended you. I know that although it is considered to be a lingua franca, English can be very difficult sometimes. Incidentally, isn't Spanish spoken by more people natively?

Making DNA tests obligatory sounds very nice at first, but then you realise that it removes the trust between husband and wife. I think that it should be done only when absolutely necessary.

Are you implying that you are of royal descent? How very interesting! In any case, it is absolutely not your fault. By the way, a better synonym of illegitimate is natural.

As for Sixte-Henri of Bourbon-Parma: from what I have read about him, I don't like him very much. I feel he is trying to prove something to the Spanish Royal Family...

Again, don't worry about your English! 😀
 
Dear sir, I thank you for your kind words about my English language and I am not offended in any way.

The legal system in European countries often does not follow the course of History in this matter: although being a natural son is an ameliorated status currently, that tends to be equal to that of a "legitimate" one, the law - at this stage - don't give any kind of protection and defence of a natural son's descendants.

Having said that: what would a court sentence look like if its decision said exactly the opposite of what scientific expertise proved?

So I stongly believe in the current evolution results and that before too long, science will "dispense justice" to those like me the family of whom was aparted from a "legitimate" ancestry.

About prince Sixte-Henri de Bourbon Parme: please permit me to suggest that you form your opinion meeting him personally (if not done...) and to respectfully warm you against what is often said about him. I would also suggest that the possible reasons of many negative opinions about him might be questioned.

His relationship with the Spanish Royal Family is not easy for sure. That said, neither King Felipe VI nor his father emeritus King Juan Carlos have any dynastical claim to the (symbolic) Royal Crown of France. The "Salic" law is mostly a french one (that could be questioned too in modern times...) and so being or not a true Bourbon/Borbon is - possibly more than ever before - the only challenge from now on, I refer first of all to France royal affairs.
 
Yes, you may be right about Prince Sixte-Henri. I have seen pictures of him on a different forum and he seems a very pleasant man. But enough about that.

For most of humanity's history, the father was the person married to the mother - the Romans and Napoleon said the same thing: The father is the man, to whom marriage points... or something 😀 .
In that case, Louis Bonaparte was the father of Napoleon III - from a legal point of view. His biological father, however, may have been a different man.
Nowadays, we have DNA tests and when there is doubt, they should be done, but before the child has grown attached to anyone. After that, I think it's rather pointless.

As for the French succession - oh dear. Good thing this isn't the place to discuss it. 😁😁😁
 
Dear Venko2257, I evoked the french succession just because you previously said on 16 Feb: "Is Duke Francisco the biological father of King Alfonso XII?
Who knows?", and obviously, if the answer is NO, so the challenge is who was the true (biologic) father and which was his YDNA. These questions directly point the french succession because of most obvious dynastic reasons, I refer to the "loi Salique" genetic effects.

That said, you are right in saying this forum is not thatone to discuss the dynastic/historic/legal question of the rights to the french royalty.

I trust for personal reasons that before too long, Y-DNA and paternal haplogroup of Alfonso XII will be the subject of a scientific publication refering to current researchs.
 
I have read about a book which lists the lovers of Queen Isabella II and supposes who may have been the father of her children. In the case of King Alfonso XII, it was probably Enrique Puigmolto. It is widely assumed that Duke Francisco was gay, which is apparently why he wasn't the father. Interestingly enough, if the Queen had married the son of her other uncle, maybe we would not be having this discussion after all!

As for the French succession, DNA is only part of the problem.

If Leandro Junior gets tested, we may know the truth.
 
I also belong to the nobility, but I have no title I lost the papers.
 
Carlos said:
I also belong to the nobility, but I have no title I lost the papers.
Click to expand...

That's still better than any Bulgarian I know (Thank you, Ottoman Empire!).

Incidentally, DNA tests are not particularly popular in my country. On the one hand, it's due to the high costs. On the other hand, it's because such things are considered to lead to unwelcome revelations about one's paternity.

These are a couple of the reasons why I still haven't tested myself for Y-DNA and mtDNA. Maybe one day...
 
^^
You have to get rid of unfounded complexes or prejudices, they are useless, it is not easy because everyone has them but you can reject them.
 
Carlos said:
^^
You have to get rid of unfounded complexes or prejudices, they are useless, it is not easy because everyone has them but you can reject them.
Click to expand...

Tell that to my fellow Bulgarians! ;)

Anyway, I don't have any doubts about my paternity, so it's just a question of money... :D
 
Yes, I was expecting such a reply sooner or later. Perhaps I did not phrase myself as well as I should have.

I would test myself, but not at the moment, as there are more important things going on at the moment. I do not consider myself to be poor (but still a student!) and yet I try to spend my money wisely.

Of course, I would prefer it if there was a national campaign to get your DNA tested here in Bulgaria. Trust me, I don't like my people's aversion to this.
 
Many Bulgarians are being tested at the moment, but most choose useless tests like with Ancestry and MyHeritage. As we lack the paper trail, there is no chance of finding real distant relatives.
 
eastara said:
As we lack the paper trail, there is no chance of finding real distant relatives.
Click to expand...

Which is why I find it darkly humorous when Family Tree DNA advertise their Y DNA kit by saying that a Y chromosome is like a surname, you get it from your father. Except that's not quite the case where I live.

Seeing as this thread has been derailed enough, let me elaborate a little. My surname is the same as my father's, but his is different from that of his own father. My grandfather also has a different surname from his own father, etc. It may be a regional thing, considering that there are old Bulgarian families who have kept their names through the decades (centuries?).

For me, the paper trails ends in the mid-19th century. What about you?
 
Venko2257 said:
Which is why I find it darkly humorous when Family Tree DNA advertise their Y DNA kit by saying that a Y chromosome is like a surname, you get it from your father. Except that's not quite the case where I live.

Seeing as this thread has been derailed enough, let me elaborate a little. My surname is the same as my father's, but his is different from that of his own father. My grandfather also has a different surname from his own father, etc. It may be a regional thing, considering that there are old Bulgarian families who have kept their names through the decades (centuries?).

For me, the paper trails ends in the mid-19th century. What about you?
Click to expand...

The Y chromosome is like a surname with maximal utility for genealogical purposes. Whether you have the same surname or not, if you have the same Y-DNA result as someone else, you have discovered a paternal cousin. Of course, if you only do Y-12, it is impossible to determine whether this relationship is 50, 500 or thousands of years old. But if you take a high resolution test, you can confidently determine the relationship to within 3 generations.
 
What about the mtDNA, though? There were some recent findings that it may not always be inherited through the mother. That's a cause for concern (if true).
 
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