New Study on Bourbon DNA by Gerard Lucotte

[Almanza]

Thank you, Almanza! That's very interesting about your g-gf! I would love to know where to find any Spanish noblility ancestry books in English, if possible. Venko showed me a link also up above. I bought a copy of Almanach de Gotha in English as well.

Dear Anne, is there a particular lineage which you are interested to learn about?

 

[Anne Frances Spackman]

Well, I was mainly looking for more information about 4 families from whom I descend: De Correia, Pacheco, De Medrano, and de Toledo de Alba, but also others. Wikipedia only offers a little information about these families in general. Both of my parents have ancestors from these four families, though my mother was born in Texas. I think there might have been a Pacheco ancestor born in either Mexico, unknown, of Spanish descent or born in Portugal, though I don't know when exactly, sometime in the 1700's is my guess; on ancestry I have Pacheco relatives who claim descent twice from Francisco Pacheco de Bocanegra Y Cordoba born in 1560, but other relatives seem to be Pachecos who immigrated from Portugal.
My dna analysis says of male ancestors in my dna I have House de Correia 1.13 %, House Pacheco 1.09 %, House de Medrano 1.04%, House de Alba 0.39%, so these are relatively recent Iberian ancestors, some from the 1700's no doubt, and some from likely the 1600's or mid to late 1500's. My father is from Scotland, but he has an ancestor who was Spanish whom I know was part de Correia (he has de Correia dna 1.51%) as well as Pacheco .70%, de Medrano .60%, and Toledo de Alba .19%. I think his Spanish ancestor was born abt. 1800 and came (with her parents possibly) as immigrants to Scotland before 1822. I don't know why they left Spain for Scotland. According to a dna analysis I had my father undergo, he also has long ago de Sousa .05%, Andrade .05%, Ramirez de Arellano .03%, and trace of Carvajal ancestry as well, but this is so far back I wouldn't even begin to know who these ancestors were or be able to find them with any degree of certainty. However, any information that you could offer me about all of these families or where to look for lineages would be appreciated!

 

[Anne Frances Spackman]

Dear sir, the blood father of king Alfonso XII is believed to have been Enrique Puigmoltó y Mayáns the 3 Earl of Torrefiel. You can understand the dna (first of all Y DNA) consequences…

Dear Venko and Almanza, I have been researching, and I do not think that Enrique 3rd Earl of Torrefiel was Alfonso XII's biological father.

Going back to the line of Henri IV, I now do believe that there was more than one false paternity event in his line: I believe from my research that Marie de Medici cuckolded Henri IV de Bourbon a few times, with the births of Henrietta-Marie Bourbon Stuart and her elder sister, Christine Marie.
From Wikipedia:
"...however, during 1603–1606 she (Marie de Medici) was effectively separated from her husband." And yet a baby was born to Marie de Medici and ostensibly, Henri IV de Bourbon on 10 February 1606 named Christine Marie of France, a baby who had to have been conceived during their separation some time in 1605.
Here is an interesting close friend of Marie de Medici, mother of Henrietta Marie Bourbon Stuart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concino_Concini
Marie's husband Henri IV Bourbon was assassinated a little over 5 1/2 months after Henrietta's birth, interestingly, only a day after Marie de Medici's coronation as Queen.
Concini, like Marie de Medici, was Italian and was also assassinated on the orders of Louis XIII years later, whom I believe was likely Henri IV's biological son.
There was, however, a significant amount of Capetian and Valois ancestry in this line of Marie de Medici herself regardless of any false paternity event with the birth of Henriette-Marie Bourbon, whom I believe wasn't actually the biological daughter of Henri IV but rather Concini, as well as with Christine Marie. I think that Gaston Jean-Baptiste de Bourbon was actually Henri IV's biological son (but he has not likely got any living descendants), and that daughter Elisabeth de Bourbon might have been also Henri IV's biological daughter, though perhaps not. Interestingly, Louis XV of France was also descended from an illegitimate legitimized child of Henri IV, so Louis XV definitely was descended from Henri IV.
I think that Henri IV's eldest son Louis XIII's sons Louis XIV and Philippe were also not biologically descended from Henri IV; I think Ana Mauricia Hapsburg had an affair with the same man twice. But, with later marriages in the royal lines, Louis XIV's great-grandson Louis XV actually did descend from Henri IV through a legitimized illegitimate child of Henri IV and Gabrielle d'Estrées named César de Bourbon, duke of Vendôme, and his daughter Élisabeth (Bourbon) de Bourbon-Vendôme. And of course, Louis XIV and Philippe de Bourbon's mother Ana Mauricia Hapsburg was also herself descended many times from the Capetians and the Valois, as well as house d'Albret as late as 1403, which was the house of Henri IV's mother Jeanne D'Albret.
The current pretenders to the throne in the houses of d'Orléans and the Spanish Bourbons (including Louis Alphonse de Bourbon) do descend through maternal lines since the last of any suspected false paternity events that I think are irrefutable, lines which include descent from Louis XV and therefore Henri IV, and also Louis XIV; thus they have the royal blood of these three men, definitely, as well as many other Capetians and Valois ancestors.
However, since both current y-lines of Spanish Bourbons and Orleans match up as the same (r1b), many say that there were no false paternity events in the lines of the Bourbon Kings, and that the Bourbon and Orleans current y-line is that of the Bourbons going back to Louis XIII and Henri IV (whom I believe was probably actually a G2a). I do not think that this was the case, that there were no false paternity events, and that instead there were 2 false paternity events by chance of 2 brothers from the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Kohary), but I do not contend that these Capetian pretenders of today are not descended from Louis XV and thus Henri IV as well as Louis XIV; they most definitely are descended from these kings, I believe, and therefore do have the Sang Royale of the Bourbons going back to Henri IV and before him.
The last King of the French: Louis-Philippe d'Orleans had a son Ferdinand Philippe d'Orléans (1810 - 1842) who married Helene Luise Elisabeth von Mecklenburg-Schwerin, and from this line descends today's House Orléans. ln 1843, Ferdinand Philippe sadly died in a tragedy. Helene Louise, Ferdinand's wife, was the cousin of Prince August Victor of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, as both descended from Franz Josias Sachsen-Coburg-Saalfeld (born in 1697); August was also a cousin of Prince Albert of Great Britain. I think that Helene Louise and August had an affair (and probably twice). August of Saxe-Coburg descended from the Ernestine branch of Wettin, which is interestingly very similar to the modern y-line of the Orleans House of Bourbon. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Sachsen-Coburg_und_Gotha-46
Pictured: Prince August of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
Louis Philippe Albert d'Orléans, Ferdinand's son (but whom I think was biologically the son of Prince August)
two pictures of his father Ferdinand Philippe d'Orléans, son of Louis-Philippe d'Orléans, last King of the French
Helene Luise Elisabeth von Mecklenburg-Schwerin.
One thing I notice is that Louis Philippe Albert d'Orléans has a wider face than his legal father. Also shown Louis Philippe Albert's brother Robert D'Orleans.
Also reading about Prince Leopold Franz Julius of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha born on 31 January 1824 of Saxe-Coburg, whom some wanted to marry Queen Isabella II of Spain, before she married Francisco de Asís, Duke of Cádiz. Leopold was August's brother and also descended from Francis, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, born in 1750, in the Ernestine branch. Here is a picture of him when he was young and handsome. Isabella's son was Alfonso XII of Spain. I think that Isabella had an affair with Prince Leopold Franz Julius of Saxe-Coburg, and that he was the biological father of Alfonso XII, and that this is why the two Bourbon Capetian pretenders' y-lines of Spain and Orleans match up: they descend from 2 handsome brothers of the Princes of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha through 2 false paternity events. But, I do also think that Alfonso XIII, though born posthumously, was Alfonso XII's biological son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/.../Prince_Leopold_of_Saxe...
A picture of Alfonso XII. His Spanish Bourbon descendants, interestingly, also have a very similar y-line to that of Saxe Coburg Saalfed (Gotha-Koháry). But, both the Spanish Bourbons and Orleans Pretenders for the throne of France should it return to a monarchy all biologically descend from Louis XIV and Louis XV and the lines of the Bourbons through maternal lines as well that are irrefutable, I think, as I have said. And, though I think that there was a false paternity event in the Orleans line also with Ferdinand's sons, where I think the y-line also changed to Saxe-Coburg-Gotha/Saalfeld (Koháry), the Orleanists do actually biologically descend ( I do believe ) from Louis-Philippe last King of the French through another child of the last King: François Ferdinand d'Orléans. I couldn't say who might deserve to be the King next most if there is a return to the monarchy, as both houses have descent from the Bourbon Kings and have the strongest claims of anyone on Earth to the throne of France in my opinion, but it would be decided between these two lines, I think, though some also put forth Jean-Christophe, Prince Napoléon as the next potential King, so I suppose it is possible that one of these 3 branches of contenders for the throne could become King next; Jean-Christophe is also descended from Philip V of Spain, one of Louis XIV's grandsons as well as a brother of Napoleon (Jerome) and Charles IV of Spain who was of the house of Bourbon; also incidentally descended from Franz Friedrich Anton, later Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld as well.
This hypothesis I do believe shows how if false paternity events involving 2 brothers with the same Saxe-Coburg-Gotha y-line in Bourbon and Orleans happened as I think that they did, the 2 y-lines that are supposed to descend from Louis XIV and his brother Philippe matched up in recent descendants also (though not with the y-lines of the actual Louis XIV and Philippe anymore), and no one has had the actual dna from the bodies of any French kings to test between Henri IV and Louis XVII, assuming that the presumed blood sample of Louis XVII was actually his which I think that it was and that the presumed head of Henri IV's was his which I think that it actually was, and so many people just thought that the Bourbons had always had this y-line of r1b, but actually, the y-line had likely changed a couple of times through false paternity events since the time of Louis XIV and Philippe, and even before them with their father Louis XIII and his father Henri IV whose last 2 daughters I think were the biological offspring of Concini; I think that Louis XIII was not the biological father of his sons also. I don't mean any disrespect to the current royals by asserting this, but the wives did not think that their affairs would ever be discovered most likely (and usually also picked other royals as their lovers), and I do believe that 2 false paternity events in the very early 1800's made the y-lines of the Bourbons match up again as they were supposed to; however, false paternity events were still not very common in general. Nevertheless, the royal and noble houses have married cousins for centuries, and as a result, through many daughters as well as other sons of the kings, the current Capetian pretenders do have after many such marriages, true lines of descent that go back to the earliest Capetian Kings, even if not through the y-lines themselves every single time.

 

[Venko2257]

Wow! That's a lot to take in, Anne!

If the royal wives were going to cheat on their husbands, they wouldn't have been caught regardless. However, a royal lover would have been much more appropriate I'd say when you want to preserve a certain "look" of the ensuing children (if any). There is then merit to that statement.

I'm not sure about the rest of your post, though. There were rumours in the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha itself, for instance that Ernest I, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (1784 - 1844), was not the biological father of either child that his first wife, Princess Louise of Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg (1800 - 1831), gave birth to, but rather some court official instead. There are however a few cases that are generally agreed upon to have included a genuine cuckolding, the most famous of which has got to be that of Louis II, Grand Duke of Hesse (1777 - 1848). He was married to Princess Wilhelmine of Baden (1788 - 1836), but was unfaithful to her. She evidently decided to return the favour and began living (quite openly in fact) with her husband's stablemaster, August von Senarclens de Grancy (1794 - 1871). The last four children that she gave birth to cannot be said to have been sired by Louis, but he did eventually come to acknowledge them as his own. The last two children are actually kind of important ancestors within the royal circles of Europe, that's how much their biological paternity was ignored.

Going back to the Bourbons, "effectively separated" does not have to mean that husband and wife never ever met in that time span. It's quite possible that the "creation" of Christine of France (1606 - 1663) served as a way to amend the relationship between her parents. It's practically unknowable either way, sadly.