North Italians are genetically closer to French, Germans than to South Italians.

[Irakli]

Interesting map. How much time do you think is necessary for a people to show signs of adaptation to the climate? Is there a certain time frame within which some mutations will occur (like blue eyes), or is that mostly random and can happen either in a few generations or in millennia? Surely with limited mixing, in a couple millennia at least the darker Northern Italians will start having lighter hair or vice versa with blonds.

 

[Davidtab]

I believe North Italians are closer to me than southern italians, Germans, etc...several Oracles put them first to my personal admixture... (just to say something).

 

[Salento]

In a smaller regional level, I would have expected a more Center-South linear results.
I guess, that at an individual level, our genetics doesn’t always follow the Cardinal Points in an orderly fashion.

 

[Georgewalley]

Some North Italians from Friuli are closer to Southwest French, Austrian than to Tuscan Italians even. This seems to reinforce that North Italians have significant Celto-Germanic input mixed with Italic while Central Italians seem like a mix of Italic, Celto-Germanic and Hellenic strains to some extent. South Italians are mostly Hellenic mixed with some Italic, Aberesche and Semitic.

Udine, Friuli

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 25.57
2 North_Sea 19.28
3 West_Med 16.45
4 Baltic 11.99
5 East_Med 11.63
6 West_Asian 7.56
7 Eastern_Euro 5.54
8 Red_Sea 1.46

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Italian @ 9.126219
2 Spanish_Cataluna @ 9.654547
3 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 10.442990
4 Portuguese @ 10.584799
5 Spanish_Galicia @ 11.117378
6 Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.212979
7 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.274429
8 French @ 11.462400
9 Spanish_Valencia @ 12.111115
10 Serbian @ 12.484947
11 Spanish_Andalucia @ 12.540326
12 Romanian @ 13.385852
13 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 13.412987
14 Austrian @ 13.660031
15 Spanish_Cantabria @ 13.936459
16 Southwest_French @ 14.041196
17 Tuscan @ 14.296636
18 South_Dutch @ 14.655699
19 Bulgarian @ 14.721441
20 Spanish_Aragon @ 15.232806

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Romanian +50% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.372498

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +25% French_Basque +25% West_German @ 2.469933

 

[Angela]

Relevant only if you consider the Friulani really Italian. Opinions differ. My Dad certainly didn't think they were real Italians. Too much Slavic and Slovenian in them. Same goes for the South Tyrol. I wouldn't care if the latter got complete autonomy, but they probably don't want that because their tax breaks are too good. You don't seem to know any Italian history: these are "late" additions.

Now, Nizza and the surrounding areas were and are Italian, and I'd love if they were back politically, but no chance of that I'm sure. Same goes for Corsica.

It would be nice to have Malta too. I like them.

There, now you have an "Italian Nationalist" point of view, a post WWI and WWII nationalist point of view. It's a tragedy how many lives were lost getting some of these areas.

I don't know when you're going to understand that the vast majority of Italians don't give a **** about this stuff.

On Oracles I get either Spaniards or Balkanites before I get Southern Italians too. Who Cares? I certainly don't. The former are not Italian and the latter are, so they are more my brothers and sisters than the former. Ethnicity is more than just genes. Look at the difference between Tuscans and Albanians.

"Northern" genes are not "superior" to "Southern" genes, certainly not to me. You obviously lack the ability to look through other peoples' eyes and just assume they share your point of view.

 

[Duarte]

I am 95% Iberian and, on average, I am also a admixture of West Africans with Amerindians (5%).
For this reason, I prefer to use oracle in "Mixed Mode Population Sharing ----> Primary Population + Secondary Population" mode.
The display of Oracle in Mixed Population Sharing Mode - Two Populations - always confirms this ralation (95% + 5%) in most of the calculators that are ideal for the calculation of admixtures of populations of Iberian origin, according to GEDmatch itself .
In my case, I find strange the results exhibited by Oracle 4, as shown below. I place it on only as an example, without wanting to enter into the main merit of the last subject matter treated in this topic, which would be the greater or lesser proximity of the Iberians with the Italians of the north or the south. As far as I know, I have no recent Italian ancestors.

Thanks for attention.

Admix Results (sorted):

Population

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="align: right"] Percent [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]North_Atlantic[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]37.44[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]West_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]28.54[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]East_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.17[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Baltic[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.95[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.88[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.32[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.29[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.67[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.42
[/TD]

[FONT=&quot]Using 1 population approximation:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.875919[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Spanish_Andalucia @ 6.084557[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 6.363086[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 Spanish_Galicia @ 6.723697[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Spanish_Murcia @ 6.738213[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Portuguese @ 6.779630[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 6.817693[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Spanish_Cantabria @ 6.959575[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Spanish_Valencia @ 7.106572[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Spanish_Cataluna @ 7.740384[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Spanish_Aragon @ 8.586516[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 Southwest_French @ 9.309721[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 North_Italian @ 13.181855[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 French @ 14.848392[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 Tuscan @ 19.700567[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 French_Basque @ 19.831991[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 South_Dutch @ 21.213432[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 West_German @ 21.421259[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Southeast_English @ 25.737713[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Southwest_English @ 25.943127[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Using 2 populations approximation:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 50% Spanish_Andalucia +50% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.562061[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Using 3 populations approximation:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 50% French_Basque +25% Tunisian +25% West_German @ 4.243699[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Using 4 populations approximation:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian + West_German @ 4.243699[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.309890[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + West_German @ 4.334445[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.384938[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.396873[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Serbian @ 4.468435[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 French + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French @ 4.478426[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.521615[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 French_Basque + French_Basque + South_Dutch + Tunisian @ 4.522835[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 French + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.588130[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 East_German + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.598396[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 Algerian + Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.606368[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 East_German + French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.606632[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + West_German @ 4.647876[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 4.655926[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + South_Dutch + Southwest_French @ 4.658337[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + West_German @ 4.662471[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 French_Basque + Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Tunisian @ 4.713262[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian + Tunisian @ 4.717680[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 French + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.717741[/FONT]

 

[Angela]

It's ancient. I don't have any Iberian ancestors in at least the last 500 years. That's as far back as my written records go.

[/IMG]

It's a northwest Italian/Tuscan thing, maybe related to the Gallic/Celtic migrations.

I get strange matches to New World Hispanics because of this.

 

[Duarte]

That happens to me too. I get strange matches with many Italo-Brazilians.

 

[brick]

Some North Italians from Friuli are closer to Southwest French, Austrian than to Tuscan Italians even. This seems to reinforce that North Italians have significant Celto-Germanic input mixed with Italic while Central Italians seem like a mix of Italic, Celto-Germanic and Hellenic strains to some extent. South Italians are mostly Hellenic mixed with some Italic, Aberesche and Semitic.

The Friulians are not average Italians from northern Italy. They are more northeastern than the other north Italians. This is the Italian situation in various and different PCA.

 

[Nik]

I don't see a problem in Italy being genetically diverse considering it's a country that stretches from Central to South Europe, it's literally in the middle of Europe, and culturally was 'the center' of European culture for circa 2 millennia.

Yet, as much as I am pro science, Italians are Italians no matter the area they come from. They have their distinct appearance so I don't think you can confuse them with Germans or French.

 

[Salento]

Friulan? Yes, in S.Italians too. (or at least me)

I guess, I’m an overlapper, I’m Stretchy.

 

[Angela]

I don't see a problem in Italy being genetically diverse considering it's a country that stretches from Central to South Europe, it's literally in the middle of Europe, and culturally was 'the center' of European culture for circa 2 millennia.

Yet, as much as I am pro science, Italians are Italians no matter the area they come from. They have their distinct appearance so I don't think you can confuse them with Germans or French.

You had me until the last sentence. There are Italians who could be nothing but Italian imo, but there are also Italians who do indeed overlap with Germans, some of them in my own family, and some of them who overlap with Greeks, and a few even a little bit more East. You can find virtually every phenotype in Italy. What does it matter? "Appearance" genes are a few out of the hundreds of thousands if not millions.

Giuliano Razzoli: he tells you where he's from.

I have a cousin (from the same valleys) who is precisely the same type.

From Bologna, in the same province, another good Italian skier: Alberto Tomba.

Or, take these beauty pageant winners, some of my favorites, btw.

Alessia Rigo: Miss Veneto

Miss Liguria:

Miss Umbria: Francesca Testasecca

Miss Sicilia: Giusy Buscemi

Miss Calabria: Maria Perrusi

With the exception of perhaps Miss Calabria and Miss Sicilia, I don't think these young women look at all alike, yet they're all "Italian".

If you need any other examples. These are the extremes:

We're used to it, but I guess other people are not.

 

[Nik]

You had me until the last sentence. There are Italians who could be nothing but Italian imo, but there are also Italians who do indeed overlap with Germans, some of them in my own family, and some of them who overlap with Greeks, and a few even a little bit more East. You can find virtually every phenotype in Italy. What does it matter? "Appearance" genes are a few out of the hundreds of thousands if not millions.

I don't really think you're disagreeing with me at all. Obviously I never stated that 100% of Italians look only Italian. On the contrary 100% of the Italians could also fit on other countries but that's another topic.

Personally I only find Razzoli as an "outlier" but if you can even find a picture of his class (not counting the neighbourhood, city, or region) where everyone shares his phenotype I'll rest my case.

So back to my initial point, Italians as a group are Italians and North Italians are not closer to Germans than to South Italians.

Coincidentally enough, I still haven't met a brown eyed Apulian yet as everyone I know personally has blue/green/hazel eyes and all of them but 1 have brown hair while 1 is blonde. Strange, I know.

P.s. Miss Sicily and Calabria fit perfectly in South Albania.

P.s.2 The brunette nr. 12 contestant is Wow (I'm sure my testosterone briefly increased when I saw her). It's stupid for Italians especially to not wanting to be identified by her phenotype.

 

[Angela]

Tastes differ. Number 12, as you so name her, isn't a type I consider particularly beautiful. That doesn't mean I'm "ashamed" that she's Italian or anything equally stupid. Perhaps you've spent too much time on sites like theapricity. The Italians who do or used to frequent sites like that are not representative of Italians. Number 29's look is not my favorite either, fwiw.

I think Tiziana Piergianni is beautiful. She was a Miss Liguria at one point. Vittoria Puccini is also very beautiful, as is Luisa Ranieri. All different, all Italian. Anyway, that's what I think is beautiful, along with Monica Bellucci, Claudia Cardinale, Laura Morante, and many more.

Piergianni

Miriam Giovanelli

Vittoria Puccini

Stefania Simonetti

Luisa Ranieri

I really find it offensive when foreigners presume to tell Italians who "looks" Italian, and who is an outlier.

There are a lot of mountainous northern areas in Italy where there is 20% blondism or more, and where some of the inhabitants do indeed look like Razzano. As always in Italy it's a mix.

You can take a look at this thread about the Parmense. There's a few posts with pictures, then some off topic, then starting at post 17 more pictures.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33332-People-of-the-Appennino-Parmense?highlight=Val+Parma

One of the young men, is, I think, a Razzano type. More than a few wouldn't look at all out of place in southern Germany or Austria or France.

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

My grandfather looked just like that as a young man, and two of my uncles.

Another one:

[/IMG]

Famous partigiana from a neighboring valley who looks like my grandmother. Nilde Lotti

Another resistance fighter-Norma Parenti

The point of my post was merely to show that there's a lot of variety in terms of phenotype in Italy, and that it means nothing as to who is more or less "Italian".

In terms of alleles, the ones responsible for "appearance" are a small minority.

In terms of overall autosomal inheritance it is however true that northern Italians are closer to some Iberians and some French people, and even to some Balkanites than they are to Southern Italians, although the distances are not huge. Numerous papers have shown that, so it's a fact.

That is even true for me and I'm half northern Italian and half Tuscan. I always come out closer to Spaniards and some Balkanites than to Southern Italians. If there is no Northern Italian or Tuscan reference sample I come out Bulgarian or occasionally Albanian, not Southern Italian, and not Greek either, for that matter.

It doesn't matter. For the umpteenth time, ethnicity is more than just genetics. I'm still closer, in all the ways that matter, to Calabresi and Sicilians than to Spaniards.

 

[Stuvanè]

Taken together, the Italians maintain their own natural position in southern Europe.
By adopting a "magnifying glass" the Italians genetically represent a microcosm reproducing - in miniature and in outline - the same gradual detectable divisions throughout Europe, each of which shows some more recurrent phenotypic characteristics, but never completely isolated and in any case with very widespread intermediate forms.

There is a north, with a more continental / Mesolithic sign, which brings it closer to the southern French and the Iberian populations (as Angela probably refers to an ancient Celtic-Ligurian heritage), a more neolithic South near the classical Greek/Aegean area, a more peculiar Center, intermediate to the former two but not in a homogeneous way, because subdivided among Tuscans who represent almost a "continuum" with the northern Italians, and the central Italians proper, Umbrian, Marche and Lazio peoples, which in my view, they would constitute the "italic" element in the true sense of the term, or at least the one closest to the Roman-Italics of Antiquity.


What is perhaps lost or more superficially treated is the genetic gradient West / East, with the "Tyrrhenian" Italians partially magnetized again towards the Iberian / Atlantic area, and the Italians "Adriatic" who are a bit more equipped with Caucasian, Baltic and / or Balkan shares.
So, in my case, someone says that I fit perfectly with the type of my area, someone else notes my nose in French people, others say I could seem Spanish and someone else still says that he sees in me something among the current Greeks, Albanians or Serbian/Montenegrins... Lol


This is me (Eurogenes K13), a few hundred kilometers east of Angela, around the Po Delta

Admix Results (sorted):

Population

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="align: right"] Percent [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]North_Atlantic[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]28.3[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]East_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]22.12[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]West_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]21.48[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Baltic[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.51[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.73[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.38[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.33[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.16[/TD]

Single Population Sharing:

Population (source)

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Tuscan[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.52[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]North_Italian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.23[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.16[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.47[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10.14[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Romanian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.89[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Bulgarian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.93[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Central_Greek[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]12.98[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.55[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Portuguese[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.73[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Extremadura[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.99[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Serbian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.54[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Galicia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.95[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Murcia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.05[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]15[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Andalucia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.39[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]South_Italian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.45[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]17[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Valencia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.66[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Cataluna[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.7[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]19[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.91[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]20[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.22[/TD]

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"] Primary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"] Secondary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]83.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]16.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Hungarian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.4[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]83.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]16.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Austrian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.57[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]77.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]22.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Serbian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.6[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]87.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]12.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]South_Polish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.67[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]85.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]14.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]East_German[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.71[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.73[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Southwest_Finnish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.75[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Ukrainian_Belgorod[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.77[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]90.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]9.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Finnish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.78[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Russian_Smolensk[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.79[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]90.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]9.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Estonian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.8[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]88%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]12%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Ukrainian_Lviv[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.81[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]85.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]14.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Croatian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.82[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]90.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]9.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Belorussian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.84[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]15[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]56.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Central_Greek[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]43.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]French[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.85[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]55.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]East_Sicilian[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]44.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]French[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.87[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]17[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]91.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]8.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Lithuanian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.87[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Southwest_Russian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.88[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]19[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]North_Swedish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.89[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]20[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]88.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]11.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Ukrainian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.9

[/TD]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Nik]

Tastes differ. Number 12, as you so name her, isn't a type I consider particularly beautiful. That doesn't mean I'm "ashamed" that she's Italian or anything equally stupid. Perhaps you've spent too much time on sites like theapricity. The Italians who do or used to frequent sites like that are not representative of Italians. Number 29's look is not my favorite either, fwiw.

Again, you're not disagreeing with me at all. The problem is that you're too quick to make enemies and accuse anyone of what you fear the most. The "ashamed" part wasn't for you but for those Nordicist Italians. Did you believe that I thought you were a Nordicist?

I don't spend time at any of those sites and neither on Italian hating threads, so don't make an enemy out of me. I'm rather supporting you and others here.

I really find it offensive when foreigners presume to tell Italians who "looks" Italian, and who is an outlier.

So you purposely brought a "not-so-Italian" looking guy and I agreed with you that he's not the image someone has when speaking about Italians, and you got offended? For some reason I can't process that.

There are a lot of mountainous northern areas in Italy where there is 20% blondism or more, and where some of the inhabitants do indeed look like Razzano. As always in Italy it's a mix.

You can take a look at this thread about the Parmense. There's a few posts with pictures, then some off topic, then starting at post 17 more pictures.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33332-People-of-the-Appennino-Parmense?highlight=Val+Parma

The point of my post was merely to show that there's a lot of variety in terms of phenotype in Italy, and that it means nothing as to who is more or less "Italian".

I'm aware of that and I don't think being blonde means someone doesn't look Italian.

Maybe because you guys got to deal with many Nordicists or anti-Italians that you get defensive but to my knowledge any country in Europe is the same. The larger the country the bigger the differences between extremities. Same goes to the UK, France, Spain, Russia, or even small countries like Greece (big differences between Makedonia and Aegean or Mani), Serbia (area of Nis vs Vojvodina), even the super small Albania with its North-South differences.

Now a question to everyone about North Italians is: Are you comparing North Italians simply to the Southern or South-Eastern French, or you're saying a North Italian is closer to someone from Brittany and Normandy than to someone from Calabria?

Then perhaps lets start comparing people from Nice and see if they're closer to Ligurians or people from Normandy. I'd be curious to see the results.

 

[Regio X]

The terms - as "North Europe" - must be defined, indeed.
N. Italians may have more similarities with, say, S. French, but I'm not sure about North Europeans, hence my previous comment in this thread.
The following is closer to what I understand by North Europe, and that's why I don't believe, I insist, that North Italians are more similar to North Europeans than to South Italians genetically:

And according to UN:

Here are, out of curiosity, my maps of similarities based on K36. Not "scientific" at all. Just a reference.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=510687#post510687

@Stuvanè
Well said!

 

[Duarte]

Taken together, the Italians maintain their own natural position in southern Europe.
By adopting a "magnifying glass" the Italians genetically represent a microcosm reproducing - in miniature and in outline - the same gradual detectable divisions throughout Europe, each of which shows some more recurrent phenotypic characteristics, but never completely isolated and in any case with very widespread intermediate forms.

There is a north, with a more continental / Mesolithic sign, which brings it closer to the southern French and the Iberian populations (as Angela probably refers to an ancient Celtic-Ligurian heritage), a more neolithic South near the classical Greek/Aegean area, a more peculiar Center, intermediate to the former two but not in a homogeneous way, because subdivided among Tuscans who represent almost a "continuum" with the northern Italians, and the central Italians proper, Umbrian, Marche and Lazio peoples, which in my view, they would constitute the "italic" element in the true sense of the term, or at least the one closest to the Roman-Italics of Antiquity.


What is perhaps lost or more superficially treated is the genetic gradient West / East, with the "Tyrrhenian" Italians partially magnetized again towards the Iberian / Atlantic area, and the Italians "Adriatic" who are a bit more equipped with Caucasian, Baltic and / or Balkan shares.
So, in my case, someone says that I fit perfectly with the type of my area, someone else notes my nose in French people, others say I could seem Spanish and someone else still says that he sees in me something among the current Greeks, Albanians or Serbian/Montenegrins... Lol


This is me (Eurogenes K13), a few hundred kilometers east of Angela, around the Po Delta

Admix Results (sorted):

Population

North_Atlantic

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="align: right"] Percent [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]28.3[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]East_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]22.12[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]West_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]21.48[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Baltic[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.51[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.73[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.38[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.33[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.16[/TD]

Single Population Sharing:

Population (source)

Tuscan

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.52[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]North_Italian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.23[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.16[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.47[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10.14[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Romanian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.89[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Bulgarian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.93[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Central_Greek[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]12.98[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.55[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Portuguese[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.73[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Extremadura[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.99[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Serbian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.54[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Galicia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.95[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Murcia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.05[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]15[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Andalucia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.39[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]South_Italian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.45[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]17[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Valencia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.66[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Cataluna[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.7[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]19[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.91[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]20[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.22[/TD]

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="colspan: 3"] Primary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"] Secondary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]83.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]16.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Hungarian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.4[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]83.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]16.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Austrian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.57[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]77.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]22.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Serbian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.6[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]87.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]12.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]South_Polish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.67[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]85.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]14.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]East_German[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.71[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.73[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Southwest_Finnish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.75[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Ukrainian_Belgorod[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.77[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]90.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]9.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Finnish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.78[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Russian_Smolensk[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.79[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]90.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]9.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Estonian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.8[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]88%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]12%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Ukrainian_Lviv[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.81[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]85.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]14.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Croatian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.82[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]90.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]9.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Belorussian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.84[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]15[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]56.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Central_Greek[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]43.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]French[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.85[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]55.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]East_Sicilian[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]44.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]French[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.87[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]17[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]91.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]8.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Lithuanian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.87[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Southwest_Russian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.88[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]19[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]89.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]10.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]North_Swedish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.89[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]20[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]88.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]11.5%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Ukrainian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.9
[/TD]

Hello Stuvanè.
I loved your explanations. I learned a little more about Italy and Europe. Italy reflects from north to south and from east to west the same that occours as with all populations in all European countries. Great. Italy is the synthesis of all Europe. That's why the Italians are so European.
Nice.
Greetings.

 

[Angela]

@Nik,
The OP is a known entity who goes around the internet spreading disinformation and t-rolling southern Italians. A lot of my time here, and on 23andme forums and the now defunct dna forums before that, has been and is wasted on people like him. In fact, too much of my time is wasted correcting misinformation about a lot of things people just "know" are true, but aren't. We are, after all, supposed to be sharing scientific or cultural or historical information. A few of our Albanian posters, because I object to some of "their" t-rolling against Greeks, have indeed accused me of Nordicism myself, so, pardon me, but unless you've been here very infrequently, this seems a bit disingenuous to me. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

As for the meat of the issue, if you go back and read my prior posts I already addressed this, and pointed out the errors in the OP based on the "GENETICS".

Northern Italians, according to fst analysis and many other statistical measures, are closer to Iberians and the southern French than they are to Southern Italians. It's a small difference, however. They're just as close to Central Italians as they are to the Iberians and the southern French. I never said anything about Northern Europeans or Germans or northern French or anything else. It was perfectly clear.

Those are just facts.

I've repeatedly said I don't think that's of any particular importance.

I do indeed get "testy" when people say that someone like Razzano doesn't look Italian, when many members of my family look like him. I'm an immigrant to the U.S., but I'm one of those immigrants for whom maintaining my Italian identity has always been very important. It was a difficult transition for me, and for my mother, and not one I chose or completely understood at the time, since I was just taken along for the ride, so to speak. I found and find it offensive and ignorant when people repeatedly question whether I and my family members are "real" Italians.

 

[Stuvanè]

Hello Stuvanè.
I loved your explanations. I learned a little more about Italy and Europe. Italy reflects from north to south and from east to west the same that occours as with all populations in all European countries. Great. Italy is the synthesis of all Europe. That's why the Italians are so European.
Nice.
Greetings.

Thanks, Duarte.
But these are just some of my partial reflections. On the forum there are far more competent members than me who can help you to clarify the matter. Stay tuned
Greetings