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Admittedly I am no expert on Old World languages--but I have noticed a trend in the majority of these verbage threads that link language to y-DNA lineage. Dumb question...what about maternal DNA influences? Unfortunately, slaves were common war booty throughout these more brutal times, surely the captured mothers would have had an impact on their child's linguistics.

As we gather more and more genetic data, and are hopefully able to date y-haplogroup movements through tribal histories... maybe the mitochondrial input will also help explain language developments?

Just throwing it out there... it is the whole concept of mother tongue afterall (emphasis on mother).
 
I know mtd DNA is "fuzzier" (at this point anyway), but it would interesting to see a language map centered exclusively around maternal groupings, and then one with both y and mtd tribes if that's possible. The 125 A.D. Roman map on wikimedia is so effective because it combines info. from multiple sources. It'd be--maptastic.
 
I was originally going to post something in response for your earlier statement about the words for "father" in various Indo-European languages, but I think that's besides the point, since, as you said, you 'don't believe into the IE theory':

The problem is that I take the PIE theory with a great disbelief, therefore I can not answer your question.

LeBrok, I think you have not understood me at all. These very basic onomatopoeic originated words, would never be loans because they come ready from the nature for every family hearth spoken language. Furthermore a fully developed natural language like Albanian will never loan such words from a vehicular originated stalling language like Serbian. The very structure of the words in Albanian with an elegante syllabic adherence into it is not meant to borrow the same words which are just loaded with parasitive suffixes. The oppositte might be true, the Serbians who were not even a distinct ethnos (when the Albanians had thousants of years elaborating their language in the family hearth) borrowed that word from them.

So if I may summarize (I might apologize beforehand if I am very far off with my interpretation, but I think I can't be too far off):

You say that the Albanian language is "pure" or "superior" (your wording is "family hearth language") that "will never take words" from "inferior" (your wording is "vehicular") languages. This is not a hypothesis, for you it is a foregone conclusion. It's a tautological fallacy: Albanian is a "pure" language, therefore it's "unchanged" and cannot absorb "impure" words.

I further understand that you must be abhorred by the mainstream view of linguistics on the Albanian language: it has absorbed a very large number of loanwords from other languages across a large stretch of history. So by your own standards, this would make Albanian and "impure" or "inferior" language. Hence, the incentive, or should I say, imperative, for you to create your own world view.

You probably find it unbearable that Latin and Greek have a written record stretching back ca. 2500 and 3500 years respectively, whereas Albanian has only a record of ca. 600-700 years, since you have spend so much time and effort here to argue how Latin and Greek were purportedly "made-up" languages. Especially Greek must be particularly grivious for you (because Greece neighbours Albania?) with the attestation of Linear B in the Bronze Age, since you've argued on several occasions how the language in Linear B "must not be Greek" (it certainly must not according to your world view), and how Ventris and Chadwick who deciphered Linear B were purportedly charlatans (well according to your view, they certainly have to be!). Removing Linear B, conviniently, makes the Greek language roughly half a millennium younger. In much the same manner, conventional history must be a lie for you and every historian and linguist since at least the Renaissance must be part of a massive conspiracy (for which, as I recall, you blame "the Church").

Please, don't get me wrong: I probably find as much as you do that it is a predicament that Albanian has such a late record in history and that it's origins and relationship with other languages are so complicated, but the way I see it, that's no ground for charlatanry, pseudoscience and belief into far-reaching conspiracies, and to come here and to try to present it as a valid scientific theory: there is no real scientific insight to be gained from your ideas: you have the foregone conclusion that Albanian must be "superior", that all other (European) languages are "inferior", and the only realization that you offer us is that according to you purportedly every word can be dismantled into Albanian words. But you don't actually explain anything with this. It's much like a Creationist saying "the world is 6000 years old and God did it", but completely failing explain the present-day distribution and diversity of life on Earth. He doesn't explain it because he doesn't care about it, since he has the foregone conclusion that "God did it, and humanity is the center piece of Creation". You give us the impression that you are much the same with regard for Albanian.
 
LeBrok, I think you have not understood me at all. These very basic onomatopoeic originated words, would never be loans because they come ready from the nature for every family hearth spoken language. Furthermore a fully developed natural language like Albanian will never loan such words from a vehicular originated stalling language like Serbian. The very structure of the words in Albanian with an elegante syllabic adherence into it is not meant to borrow the same words which are just loaded with parasitive suffixes. The oppositte might be true, the Serbians who were not even a distinct ethnos (when the Albanians had thousants of years elaborating their language in the family hearth) borrowed that word from them.


Zeus modern scientists are even doubt if Albanians are Illyrians and if Albanian is Old IE or a language by it shelf,
Modern scientists Give Albanian as Linguistic mix of other IE languages and Turkic,
it is consider as one new IE language build upon a mix of older with Turkic, who gave new aspiration to the older IE

search newly dated work of Oliver Jens Schmit.
 
Modern scientists Give Albanian as Linguistic mix of other IE languages and Turkic
We have got to be careful with wild general statements like this based on occupation time. Because by the same logic, I can claim modern greek is a mix of turkish and pre-ottoman greek.
 
We have got to be careful with wild general statements like this based on occupation time. Because by the same logic, I can claim modern greek is a mix of turkish and pre-ottoman greek.

I don't understand you.

IS that a Threat?

go ahead,
open a thread and prove it, I am not afraid, and your post seems like blackmail.

if you can go ahead,
lets see your theory also.
I just said that modern sciences are giving quite different dimensions than the ones of 1850-1920 that Consider Albanian as Illyrian or Dorians etc etc,

don't Threat me, next time, if you have something, go make a thread and claim what ever, who cares about, I have you able by your posts here to fabricate data and twist texts.


I just said what Oliver Jens Schmit Phd from Vienna say.

PS
Besides I never deny that in modern Greek exist Turkish words, what do you wxpect after centuries of occupation, is miracle that Greek are spoken since today.
 
SO, everybody can create is own thread to be sure of no contradiction - surely knowledge is going to progress very quickly like that - I think I am going to create some hundreds of threads, like that surely I shall have the last word in some of them?

what is sure: I agree with myself and the inverse is true (joke? well, I'm going todrink some fresh water after having swallowed a full box of pills, for my nerves! try of humor...)
nobody threaten nobody here (we are to far one from another) -
I repeat: chomit sioul hag evit traoù fresk ("restez calmes et buvez frais")
 
Yetos, stop this. What you're doing has nothing to do with linguistics. You cherrypick words from languages from quite different parts of the world, from different time slices, and from these you make assumptions which have no basis what so ever. You might as well try to convince us that Albanian is a Native American language, such a claim wouldn't be any more outlandish. Worse yet, you randomly break apart words even if these do not represent compounds. I've called this 'magic word dismantling' before, and you're not the first to do this. It has nothing to do with linguistic methodology, it's just pseudoscience. The worst part is that you're just confusing other board members, and you regularly jump into topics and start with these wild comparisons that are really completely out of context. For their well-being, I must ask you to stop this.

Taranis
Yes I did a cherry pick of words but not from all,

from a basket of words thathave simmilar sounds and meanings among Summerian Akkadian and IE,
That is something that many linguists do, and you know that with same way IE theory started,
I just pick 3-5 words, But these are not the only ones,
Now.
by watching Summerian Akkadian IE Lexicons I watch some simmilarity,
so that similarity can be Diabolic coinsidence, but how much?
if the words are not few but much more, that shows connectivity (not relative)

a good for example if Hettits enter from Steppe to minor Asia how come they have Akkadian (semitic?) Deity Illuwanka? how come we find words far away from Summeria in IE vocabulary,

I know you can tell me the example of wine and οινος, true, but won't you think is much more?
for example the word house οικος and ehus can follow the rules of the wine example?

that can be explained (at least for me, and now, tommorow will bring more discoveries) by:

1) early Neolithic farming was Summerian speaking and left vocabulary later to steppe people?
2) IE was a language spoken close to Summerian and spread to steppe before arsenic bronze?
3) Summerians were also steppe people?

I repeat the cherry pick as you called it I did it as an example, I do not have the time to write down all words,
besides that is a good Idea for a young linguist
I do not want to claim ISOs or Phds
 
whereas Albanian has only a record of ca. 600-700 years

The first coherent writen german is from the 9-th century AD. Until the 13-th century AD, latin was the language used in germany for all administrative matters. Does this mean that now we should start to question who are the germans? Should germans feel inferior to greeks because of this?
 
SO, everybody can create is own thread to be sure of no contradiction - surely knowledge is going to progress very quickly like that - I think I am going to create some hundreds of threads, like that surely I shall have the last word in some of them?

what is sure: I agree with myself and the inverse is true (joke? well, I'm going todrink some fresh water after having swallowed a full box of pills, for my nerves! try of humor...)
nobody threaten nobody here (we are to far one from another) -
I repeat: chomit sioul hag evit traoù fresk ("restez calmes et buvez frais")


hahaha,
1 box is not enough in modern world,
you need at least 30 pills each day,
 
Taranis
Yes I did a cherry pick of words but not from all,

from a basket of words thathave simmilar sounds and meanings among Summerian Akkadian and IE,
That is something that many linguists do, and you know that with same way IE theory started,
I just pick 3-5 words, But these are not the only ones,
Now.
by watching Summerian Akkadian IE Lexicons I watch some simmilarity,
so that similarity can be Diabolic coinsidence, but how much?
if the words are not few but much more, that shows connectivity (not relative)

a good for example if Hettits enter from Steppe to minor Asia how come they have Akkadian (semitic?) Deity Illuwanka? how come we find words far away from Summeria in IE vocabulary,

I know you can tell me the example of wine and οινος, true, but won't you think is much more?
for example the word house οικος and ehus can follow the rules of the wine example?

that can be explained (at least for me, and now, tommorow will bring more discoveries) by:

1) early Neolithic farming was Summerian speaking and left vocabulary later to steppe people?
2) IE was a language spoken close to Summerian and spread to steppe before arsenic bronze?
3) Summerians were also steppe people?

I repeat the cherry pick as you called it I did it as an example, I do not have the time to write down all words,
besides that is a good Idea for a young linguist
I do not want to claim ISOs or Phds

Just because something has a similar sound (that's debatable too) and similar meaning does not automantically mean it is actually a cognate. To pick an example, take English "name" and Japanese "namae". The way you work, these two words should be obviously cognates (they are not), but Welsh "enw" (which is an actual cognate of English "name"!) would evade your notice because it obviously looks to dissimilar. The only way to avoid this is to consider which sound corresponds regularly to which sound, and which sound changes happened in a language's past: you wouldn't automatically recognize Greek "oinos" (οινος) and Hebrew "jajn" (יינ) as cognates, but if I tell you that in ancient Greek, *w > Ø and in Hebrew *w- > *j-, you get *woinos and *wajn and the similarity becomes more obvious. By the way, in the same way as "oinos" derives from an earlier "woinos", "oikos" derives from an earlier *woikos, which you can link with Latin "vicus" (village).

For instance, you made a comparison between a Russian (or otherwise Slavic) word, a Greek word (the two which are probably not even related with each other), and a Sumerian word. Do you want to argue that Sumerian was spoken in Migration Period Balkans? To demonstrate what you actually want (correspondences between PIE and Sumerian), then you should demonstrate what an ancestral PIE form was (perhaps, show reflexes in other branches of IE, such as Indo-Aryan or Germanic, and show regular sound correspondences), and then demonstrate how the PIE forms correspond regularly with the Sumerian ones.

Another frequent mistake that you and others make is that you perceive compounds where there are none and start to dismantle a word where there is nothing to do dismantle. For this, let me take an obviously nonsensical example of why such "magic word dismantlements" do not work: I will take the Gaulish deity name "Belisama". For the sake of an argument, I argue that it is Chinese in etymology, by tearing it apart as 貝力傻馬 (Bei Li Sha Ma). I could continue like this with about every Gaulish name, and at the end of the day I would argue this:

1) that modern Mandarin Chinese is unchanging and that it was spoken already 2400 years ago (wow, who knew!)
2) that there was Chinese presence in pre-Roman Gaul (sensational!).

As I said, this example is obvious nonsense, but this is how you people (Yetos, you're not the only one) draw your conclusions here.

With Sumerian (by the way, it's "Sumerian" and NOT "Summerian"), everything should be taken a bit cautious: it is the oldest attested written language, it ceased to be spoken around 4000 years ago, and everything that we know or think to know comes through the filter of Akkadian and the Cuneiform script. There is a great deal of things we do not know for certain as a result. Any language we might want to compare Sumerian to was spoken thousands of years later, which leaves an even greater room for uncertainty.
 
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You say that the Albanian language is "pure" or "superior" (your wording is "family hearth language") that "will never take words" from "inferior" (your wording is "vehicular") languages. This is not a hypothesis, for you it is a foregone conclusion. It's a tautological fallacy: Albanian is a "pure" language, therefore it's "unchanged" and cannot absorb "impure" words.

I never said or meant Albanian is a pure language, but at the same time I have to say that Albanian is unical among most of European languages, because has been engineered and shaped in its BASIC LEXICON in nature and longer before that religious institutions creating their languages for their brainwashing goals, entirely based on the vernacular languages. Therefore, there is no chance that Serbian отац has given Albanian ôt, the opposite might be true, like the onomatopoeic Gheg Albanian tatë has given Serbian tata.

I further understand that you must be abhorred by the mainstream view of linguistics on the Albanian language: it has absorbed a very large number of loanwords from other languages across a large stretch of history. So by your own standards, this would make Albanian and "impure" or "inferior" language. Hence, the incentive, or should I say, imperative, for you to create your own world view.

No, I admit Albanian has loaned a large number of words from some other languages, but they are not part of the core dictionary, and if so in few occasions, they have not entirely displaced the genuine Albanian words, so you always will find the original counterpart.

You probably find it unbearable that Latin and Greek have a written record stretching back ca. 2500 and 3500 years respectively, whereas Albanian has only a record of ca. 600-700 years, since you have spend so much time and effort here to argue how Latin and Greek were purportedly "made-up" languages. Especially Greek must be particularly grivious for you (because Greece neighbours Albania?) with the attestation of Linear B in the Bronze Age, since you've argued on several occasions how the language in Linear B "must not be Greek" (it certainly must not according to your world view), and how Ventris and Chadwick who deciphered Linear B were purportedly charlatans (well according to your view, they certainly have to be!). Removing Linear B, conviniently, makes the Greek language roughly half a millennium younger. In much the same manner, conventional history must be a lie for you and every historian and linguist since at least the Renaissance must be part of a massive conspiracy (for which, as I recall, you blame "the Church").

2 things:
a. You can not prove that the two languages are that old.
b. You can never prove, that those two languages are ethnic languages, meanwhile I can easily show you strong evidences that these two languages were used for religous purposes on the first place and then transmited to larger group of followers, which later would become a nation/s.

Please, don't get me wrong: I probably find as much as you do that it is a predicament that Albanian has such a late record in history and that it's origins and relationship with other languages are so complicated, but the way I see it, that's no ground for charlatanry, pseudoscience and belief into far-reaching conspiracies, and to come here and to try to present it as a valid scientific theory: there is no real scientific insight to be gained from your ideas: you have the foregone conclusion that Albanian must be "superior", that all other (European) languages are "inferior", and the only realization that you offer us is that according to you purportedly every word can be dismantled into Albanian words. But you don't actually explain anything with this. It's much like a Creationist saying "the world is 6000 years old and God did it", but completely failing explain the present-day distribution and diversity of life on Earth. He doesn't explain it because he doesn't care about it, since he has the foregone conclusion that "God did it, and humanity is the center piece of Creation". You give us the impression that you are much the same with regard for Albanian.

You never ask the youth to show the remote past of an elder.
 
...before that religious institutions creating their languages for their brainwashing...

the languages were used for religous purposes ...

I find it highly ironic that we hear this (critique) from a guy name Zeus, using... language. Are you trying to brainwash us too?


What is your answer to this:
Why do Albanians have dialects, instead of one uniform language?
 
I find it highly ironic that we hearthis (critique) from a guy name Zeus, using... language. Are you trying tobrainwash us too?

My ancestors' Divinity was the symbol of the Sun, light, day and brightness. He was called DI by which we name the day(dita), the light(drita), and the knowledge(dija). He was nothing alike the fearful Gods of Medieval terror, he was the light and was replaced by the obscurantism, he was the beloved teacher of the humanity and was replaced by the mysticism.

What is your answer to this:
Why do Albanians have dialects, instead of one uniform language?

The dialects are an inevitable phenomenon in the life of a language. The differences in regional and social patterns of a nation will be reflected in the the speech too, but this diversity of the speech patterns by no means determines a different DNA of the language.
 
ouf! I'm well (I take now 60 medical pills everyday, thank to yetos...
left aside first human language qualification for albanian and wild hacking words as etymology, the question here is still interesting;
who can make here a list of akkadian or considered sumerian words (with translation!) - and then everyone of us will do his mind himself - thank beforehand.
 



The dialects are an inevitable phenomenon in the life of a language. The differences in regional and social patterns of a nation will be reflected in the the speech too, but this diversity of the speech patterns by no means determines a different DNA of the language.

How old do you think Albanian language is?
Let's assume that Homo Sapience/Homo Erectus started using speech about 300k years ago, Cro-Magnon (Early European Modern Human) existed in Europe since 40k ago, Fully Modern Europeans, showed up/evolved and substantially increased in numbers 10 thousand years ago, end of ice age and beginning of herding and farming.
 
How old do you think Albanian language is?
Let's assume that Homo Sapience/Homo Erectus started using speech about 300k years ago, Cro-Magnon (Early European Modern Human) existed in Europe since 40k ago, Fully Modern Europeans, showed up/evolved and substantially increased in numbers 10 thousand years ago, end of ice age and beginning of herding and farming.

I am not a Darwinist but I won't pose myself to have any knowledge about the prehistory. All what I am sure of, is that what we name 'nation' in the past were nowhere alike the modern nation. In regards to Albanians, I am inclined to believe they have had a relatively pure ethnic history, and during their existance they were distinguished among others for their ethnic language their indiference for the mystical religions and as a naturally vicious and martial race. I think at least in the Balkans was nobody before them to attest their antiquity.
 
I am not a Darwinist but I won't pose myself to have any knowledge about the prehistory. All what I am sure of, is that what we name 'nation' in the past were nowhere alike the modern nation. In regards to Albanians, I am inclined to believe they have had a relatively pure ethnic history, and during their existance they were distinguished among others for their ethnic language their indiference for the mystical religions and as a naturally vicious and martial race. I think at least in the Balkans was nobody before them to attest their antiquity.

Wow, that's refreshing...So if Albanians didn't evolve from other proto-people (Darwinism would imply evolution, which you're against), how did they start as people/culture/nation? Does your mythical religion has something to do with it, the Di or Zeus?
 
Let's assume that Homo Sapience/Homo Erectus started using speech about 300k years ago, Cro-Magnon (Early European Modern Human) existed in Europe since 40k ago, Fully Modern Europeans, showed up/evolved and substantially increased in numbers 10 thousand years ago, end of ice age and beginning of herding and farming.

Oh boy, whatever would we have done without you hyper-sophisticated R's? I bet we wouldn't be able to speak to this day without you teaching us.
 
Wow, that's refreshing...So if Albanians didn't evolve from other proto-people (Darwinism would imply evolution, which you're against), how did they start as people/culture/nation? Does your mythical religion has something to do with it, the Di or Zeus?

maybe I can give an answer to your question,
Genetically speaking about albanians:
E V-13, J2: neolithic farmers, pelasgians
R1b, R1a: Illyrians
If R1b is also neolithic in europe, which a lot of studies claim, then albanian does have a shot at
being a source language for other IE languages (maybe from 3-4th millenium BC source). Its strategic location in the balkans does help this hypothesis too; west european R1b comes from the balkans.
Archeologically speaking, the oldest metal work in europe is also found in the balkans.
There is just too many clues to ignore.
 

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