Old Slavs- racial question

[MOESAN]

difficult to be sure of what was the type (if one) of the first Slavs: they were described as blond or dark haired (but this last description is a Arab's one speaking about Czec'hia Slavs (I forgot the date) -
the description of some cranial remnants showed some local differences for the VI°C? ones, with a tendancy to dolicho-mesocephaly, someones with low vaults and high eyesockets close to the so called 'Iron Age nordic Celt' or 'kymric' (hum hum!) (elite only?) and some elites of the first I-E Armenians (according to some old surveys), other Slavs with high vault, closer to 'corded' type of Northern european plain of Bronze-Iron period... as a whole, if true, these descriptions correspond better to a mix of (original?) Caucasus or South Steppic-Iranic people (Scythes low vaulted too concerning their dolichos: some 'gedrosian' autosomals here?) with more northern Steppic people akin to Battle Axes and Corded... speaking about geography more than about language here!
I think the bracycephals ('dinaric' for the most) was present about 2000 BC inthe Steppes and Siberia, but at low levels, the most of them had been incorporated in the Western Ukraina-Carpathians region: evolved peasants mixed with breeding nomads?

Julia and others: look at the Slav's skin: it is as dark as the Gaul's one , even if with lighter hairs! - I pray you: let's not pay too much attention to a lonely document, please!!! the same for the "mean" facial type of ethnies (no worth for anthropology) and about the greek nose or the ressemblance of royal persons of Europe dynasties painted by artists!!!

sans rancune! have good dreams!

 

[Eldritch]

I associate old Slavs with this type of looks.

 

[martinmkp]

difficult to be sure of what was the type (if one) of the first Slavs: they were described as blond or dark haired (but this last description is a Arab's one speaking about Czec'hia Slavs (I forgot the date) -

Julia and others: look at the Slav's skin: it is as dark as the Gaul's one , even if with lighter hairs!

Arabs descripting the Slavs in the Danubian Area of 9th - 10th Century: Andalusian Ibn Ruska (after 903), Turtusi, Mahmud Gardizi, al-Mascudi (890-956).

On the Slav´s skin: I would be very cautious on this matter. In Danube to the North, the skin is definitely fair (the same as f.e. Germans), to the south of Danube probably darker (Gaul´s if you wish so), caused by the native Panonian ("dinaric") inhabitants. Interesting is, that in some Moravian regions there are really "darker types" influences.

But we have to have in mind that there is an intermixture in the Central European region, so it is very difficult to describe who were typical Slavs or Germans not only nowadays in area of Vienna, Prague or Krakow, but 1000 years earlier as well. I suppose it is mostly the matter of language used by a person, not the ethnic background in former Czecho-Slovakia or Hungary (genetically speaking).

Probably some adepts for strong "Slavic" patterns with less intermixture is Poland, Ukraine. But also here, in northern parts of those two countries we have to cope with Finno-Ugric influences.

 

[ElHorsto]

Non-balkan slavs seem to consistently bear a certain minor varying percentage of individuals with dark features (10-20%, my personal impression, perhaps due to the 8-12% Caucasus autosomal admixture?, probably iranian or neolithic?). Russians seem to be relatively often redheaded, more than Germans. But Czechs seem to be seldom redheaded. With regards to Ukraine we have to be careful because the east was often empty and resettled. The east was settled by various colonists imported by the russian empire ("New Russia").

Old slavs were probably closer to north slavs, assuming the balkans was settled later, but this is not so sure.

The depiction of "Gallia" is somewhat surprising.

 

[American Idiot]

I have found interesting represantation of four racial type in medieval Europe. The picture is from Otto III Gospel from 10th century. It represents Slav, German, Gaull and Roman... What was most interesting if we compare the picture of Slav and the way is presented, with ruddy skin and hair it is almost exact how Procopius, Byzantine writer from 6th century describes Slavs:
"They live in pitiful hovels which they set up far apart from one another, but, as a general thing, every man is constantly changing his place of abode. When they enter battle, the majority of them go against their enemy on foot carrying little shields and javelins in their hands, but they never wear corselets. Indeed, some of them do not wear even a shirt or a cloak, but gathering their trews up as far as to their private parts they enter into battle with their opponents. And both the two peoples have also the same language, an utterly barbarous tongue. Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are all slightly ruddy in color. And they live a hard life, giving no heed to bodily comforts...".[
It is also interesting that Gaull man was presented as darkest among four, even darkest than the Roman one.

The other interesting thing is presents they hold. Slav holds the bread, which may imply that he represents the nation of agriculturalists and peasents. Gaul holds something what reminds me on palm tree. I am not sure what German and Roman holds.

to me, the Roman looks like someone you might see from Italy, maybe more from the north.
the Gaul (Gallo-Roman) looks like a modern day Frenchman, found anywhere in France.
the German looks Scandinavian.
and the Slav looks like someone you might see from Russia or Poland or maybe even the Ukraine, IMO.

 

[American Idiot]

yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[American Idiot]

I always wondered this myself. I thought Roman texts often described the Gauls as a very fair featured people?

this picture/painting is from the 10th century AD. By that time the Gauls were mixed with the Romans who conquered Gaul in Ceaser's time.

The depiction is obviously of a Gallo-Roman from Gaul, not a typical pre-Roman, Celtic-speaking Gaul.

 

[oreo_cookie]

this picture/painting is from the 10th century AD. By that time the Gauls were mixed with the Romans who conquered Gaul in Ceaser's time.

The depiction is obviously of a Gallo-Roman from Gaul, not a typical pre-Roman, Celtic-speaking Gaul.

Romans did not settle anywhere en masse, but the Gauls would not have been homogenous. I doubt the people in southern (Mediterranean) France would have all been blue eyed and blonde. Some would have of course, but I don't think they ALL would have been.

 

[Vedun]

Sclauinia was original name for current nations of Slovenes and Slovakian people. Sklavinia Regnum; Carnuntum (aka "Carantania") was described in several sources Other slavs were called: Veneti and Antes. Sklauinia (transmutation of "Sklovenia" or "Skolotoi" (Herodotus's transliteration of 'scythian'; Slavic readers will understand this as "Sokoloti" or Sokoli ) and Vens, this is nation of "Veneti" (according to Jordanes)... 2 Slavic tribes coexisting on one and the same territory.

 

[Vedun]

faces of Sklauinians (Slovenes) (Carantanians), illustrated by Leopold Stainreuter (1340-1400)

Inauguration of Carantanian kings (princes); Kniazi (check my further article about Kniaz; Koniaz; Konigaz, Khan, under this topic:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26108-Thoughts-from-Klyosov-R1b-data-and-the-IE-problem/page3 )

This special Oath and inauguration was carried into the American inauguration of American presidents, since Thomas Jefferson's Declaration of Independence...

Carantania - Sklavinia

Carantanian hats

the popular movie "Kekec", as a shepherd...

 

[FrankN]

Some Sorbs:

I probably don't need to give the name, he should be known well enough. Anyway: Ballack (< "Pollack" < "polish")

Stanislaw Tillich, PM of Saxony

Silbermond from Bautzen (Budyšin)

And here a random selection of people called "Panzlaff", a name especially common in former Obotrite lands in East Holstein and Mecklenburg (though none of the people on the photographs is living there):

Finally, this lady with at least 25% west Slavic ancestry (her paternal grandfather was born in Poznan, and hat a Polish birth name):

 

[FrankN]

Some Sorbs:

I probably don't need to give the name, he should be known well enough. Anyway: Ballack (< "Pollack" < "polish")

Stanislaw Tillich, PM of Saxony

Silbermond from Bautzen (Budyšin)

And here a random selection of people called "Panzlaff", a name especially common in former Obotrite lands in East Holstein and Mecklenburg (though none of the people on the photographs is living there):

Finally, this lady with at least 25% west Slavic ancestry (her Poznan-born paternal grandfather bore a Polish surname):

 

[Sile]

faces of Sklauinians (Slovenes) (Carantanians), illustrated by Leopold Stainreuter (1340-1400)

Inauguration of Carantanian kings (princes); Kniazi (check my further article about Kniaz; Koniaz; Konigaz, Khan, under this topic:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26108-Thoughts-from-Klyosov-R1b-data-and-the-IE-problem/page3 )

This special Oath and inauguration was carried into the American inauguration of American presidents, since Thomas Jefferson's Declaration of Independence...

Carantania - Sklavinia

Carantanian hats

the popular movie "Kekec", as a shepherd...

The eastern Slavic tribe of the Carantanians migrated westward along the Drava into the Eastern Alps in the wake of the expansion of their Avar overlords during the 7th century, mixed with the Celto-Romanic population, and established the realm of Carantania (later Carinthia), which covered much of eastern and central Austrian territory and was the first independent Slavic state in Europe, centred at Zollfeld.

In the south of present-day Austria the Slavic tribes had settled in the valleys of the Drava, Mura and Save by 600 AD. The westward Slavic migration stopped further Bavarian migration eastwards by 610. Their most westward expansion was reached in 650 at the Puster Valley (Pustertal), but gradually fell back to the Enns River by 780 (Beller p. 12). The settlement boundary between Slavs and Bavarians roughly corresponds to a line from Freistadt through Linz, Salzburg (Lungau), to East Tyrol (Lesachtal), with Avars and Slavs occupying eastern Austria and modern day Bohemia.

Is Zollfeld a slovenian place?


maybe you need to investigate all with this paper
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041885

 

[Vedun]

The Inauguration was performed in Slovene language, it was a special tradition which was last time carried out in 1414, under Ernest, Duke of Austria (this year 2014 we celebrate 600- year anniversary) . He have had to speak in Slovene at that time. So, yes it was a Slovenian place. Still today populated with Slovene minority.
a quote from Wiki
"
Until the early 15th century was the appearance of the duke of Carinthia connected to a ceremony that Europe wasn't familiar with. The last inauguration of a Carinthian prince by a farmer , was carried out by Ernest Duke (1414). Ceremony was held as follows: inaugurator (Kosez), stood before the crowd of people and court assessors, who invited Duke Ernest. When the farmer answered to all question, "that he will be a good a judge, that he will be a good leader of the land, and whether it respects the Christian faith", he got an affirmative answer by the Count of Gorica (Gorizia; Gorica means "hilly land") who provided a ransom for his share, the Duke handed power to the new Duke of Carinthia. Duke has won a feud earlier, but only with the ceremony at the Prince's stone was confirmed by the noble and right by the Saal blessed. Then it can be granted fiefs to vassals of the ducal throne. The second ducal seat was shared their fiefs Palatine Count of Gorizia as Carinthia, Count Palatine. Ritual language was for all participants of the ceremony at Prince's stone Slovenian. "



http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustoličevanje_koroških_vojvod

So this tradition has nothing to do with Avars, Germans neither Italians.

Regards to your question about the Zollfeld, you should rather study the so called Official history. Carantanians were were forced to make an alliance with Bavarians and Franks. Franks were ruling over Bavarians at that time. Carantanians were yet still free (autonomous). This "alliance" (in military) happened because Avars threatened to destroy Carantanians. In in return for assistance, Carantanians were obligated to baptize and to ban all old "pagan" traditions, faith and their history. Franks became rulers over Carantanians and after Franks came Bavarians who created a later state called Austria. Carantanians were allowed to carry on with their tradition of electing dukes, but slowly were Carantanian dukes replaced with Bavarian, especially because the fear of Christian refusal. This is how Bavarians occupied, Gothicized this territory. Their last opponents were Counts of Cilli. The last count of Cilli who still represented the royal Carantanian ancestry was Ulrich II, Count of Celje. He was beheaded. Cilli counts were was a serious threat to the whole Habsburg dynasty, because of their influence.

And yes, there is still a Slovenian minority in Austria, including around Zollfeld. You can not hide this...
The democracy, where women have had equal rights to men was known only to Carantanians and Etruscans, the original and native population of Italy. Etruscans also came from Asia, via Paflagonia to Italian peninsula. This Carantanian (Asian) democracy influenced Thomas Jefferson when he wrote the Declaration of Independence.

 

[Sile]

The Inauguration was performed in Slovene language, it was a special tradition which was last time carried out in 1414, under Ernest, Duke of Austria (this year 2014 we celebrate 600- year anniversary) . He have had to speak in Slovene at that time. So, yes it was a Slovenian place. Still today populated with Slovene minority.
a quote from Wiki
"
Until the early 15th century was the appearance of the duke of Carinthia connected to a ceremony that Europe wasn't familiar with. The last inauguration of a Carinthian prince by a farmer , was carried out by Ernest Duke (1414). Ceremony was held as follows: inaugurator (Kosez), stood before the crowd of people and court assessors, who invited Duke Ernest. When the farmer answered to all question, "that he will be a good a judge, that he will be a good leader of the land, and whether it respects the Christian faith", he got an affirmative answer by the Count of Gorica (Gorizia; Gorica means "hilly land") who provided a ransom for his share, the Duke handed power to the new Duke of Carinthia. Duke has won a feud earlier, but only with the ceremony at the Prince's stone was confirmed by the noble and right by the Saal blessed. Then it can be granted fiefs to vassals of the ducal throne. The second ducal seat was shared their fiefs Palatine Count of Gorizia as Carinthia, Count Palatine. Ritual language was for all participants of the ceremony at Prince's stone Slovenian. "



http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustoličevanje_koroških_vojvod

So this tradition has nothing to do with Avars, Germans neither Italians.

Regards to your question about the Zollfeld, you should rather study the so called Official history. Carantanians were were forced to make an alliance with Bavarians and Franks. Franks were ruling over Bavarians at that time. Carantanians were yet still free (autonomous). This "alliance" (in military) happened because Avars threatened to destroy Carantanians. In in return for assistance, Carantanians were obligated to baptize and to ban all old "pagan" traditions, faith and their history. Franks became rulers over Carantanians and after Franks came Bavarians who created a later state called Austria. Carantanians were allowed to carry on with their tradition of electing dukes, but slowly were Carantanian dukes replaced with Bavarian, especially because the fear of Christian refusal. This is how Bavarians occupied, Gothicized this territory. Their last opponents were Counts of Cilli. The last count of Cilli who still represented the royal Carantanian ancestry was Ulrich II, Count of Celje. He was beheaded. Cilli counts were was a serious threat to the whole Habsburg dynasty, because of their influence.

And yes, there is still a Slovenian minority in Austria, including around Zollfeld. You can not hide this...
The democracy, where women have had equal rights to men was known only to Carantanians and Etruscans, the original and native population of Italy. Etruscans also came from Asia, via Paflagonia to Italian peninsula. This Carantanian (Asian) democracy influenced Thomas Jefferson when he wrote the Declaration of Independence.

But the counts of Cilli ( originally from Upper Austria ) fled from the Bavarians and moved South, later trying to claim the Hungarian throne ..............IIRC, they where replaced by the babenbergs . They ( cilli) failed to stay and fight.

Etruscans society in regards to women, was that the women could bed any man regardless of being married or not and that is why no husband could really claim a child is his. It was a cultural thing. I never seen any link to northern Anatolia in regards to this practice

 

[Vedun]

Several historians claim they (Cilli) were of Slavic (some Preslav; Prezlaus) ancestry, even more, of the Carantanian ancestry. Quote:
http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celjski_grofje

" Poreklo Žovneških svobodnih gospodov, oziroma kasnejših Celjskih grofov, ni točno znano. Askvinci so se v 11. stoletju nahajali približno na istem območju, kjer v 12. stoletju srečamo Savinjske oziroma Žovneške gospode, zato se domneva o askvinskem poreklu zdi najbolj verjetna.^[6] To je danes prevladujoče mnenje, po Pirchegerju pa je bil začetnik Žovneških neki Preslav, ki nosi slovansko ime.^[7] V preteklosti so iz Celjskih grofov skušali narediti slovenske vladarje. Po Orožnu naj bi bili potomci karantanskih slovenskih prednikov.^[8]
Posebnost slovenskih dežel je bila, da se je plemstvo oblikovalo med germanskim in slovanskim svetom; plemiške družine so pogosto prihajale iz nemških dežel, a so zaradi slovanskega zaledja in karantanske tradicije vsaj do konca 15. stoletja postajale dvojezične.^[11] Kot povzpetniški plemiči so Žovneški oziroma Celjski gotovo čislali uporabo nemškega jezika: že sredi 13. stoletja je neki Der von Sounegge, če je slednji res bil Žovneški gospod, pisal trubadurske lirične pesmi v nemškem jeziku. Ko je Ana Celjska, nečakinja Hermana II. 150 let kasneje prišla na poljski dvor, ni znala drugega jezika kakor nemško (seveda iz zornega kota Poljakov).^[12] Toda na drugi strani najdemo Ulrika II. Žovneškega, ki je leta 1306 svoje kmete poučeval, kako omejiti škodo, ki so jo prinašali roji kobilic, torej je z njimi verjetno govoril slovansko.^[13] Ulrikova pravoslavna žena Katarina je po drugi strani še v 15. stoletju goriškemu grofu Lenartu napisala slovansko pismo v cirilici, pri čemer se je Lenart te pisave lahko priučil le v času bivanja na dvoru Celjskih, kjer so tedaj bivali tudi pravoslavni duhovniki.^[12] Iz vidika deželne identitete in uporabe slovanskega in germanskega jezika izvorno poreklo Celjskih grofov (ki se ga sploh ne da z gotovostjo določiti) izgubi na pomenu, saj se po svoji dvojezičnosti in srednjeveški identiteti niso v ničemer razlikovali od večine ostalega plemstva na tleh današnje Slovenije. Najverjetneje se niso imeli ne za Slovence (to je arhaičen izraz za Slovane) in ne za Nemce, ampak so bili, kakor pravi Igor Grdina, predvsem sebi lastni.^[12]"

Use a google translate. I have no interest of translating this text into English.


"I never seen any link to northern Anatolia in regards to this practice"

If you have a time machine, and if you have visited those places, then i will believe you...

Common historical belief is that Etruscans came from Anatolia into Italy. Etruscans gave original names to current Italian cities; Rome derives from Etruscan Ruma, Perugia was Perusna, Pupolonia was Fuflusna (Fuflunz god), Bologna was Felsna, Felsina, Velzna, Firence were Firent/Birent, etc

Besides later Romans (named after Etruscan Ruma) tried to present Etruscans as savages. I wouldn't be surprised if they were even perverting the whole picture and their culture in their own sources; one thing is clear; Etruscans were wiped out because of Latin population.
Etruscans were an emancipated nation; Kama Sutra was indeed part of their daily, cultural life. But i do not buy latin sources about Etruscans as being "dissolute, perverse " too much.

 

[Sile]

Several historians claim they (Cilli) were of Slavic (some Preslav; Prezlaus) ancestry, even more, of the Carantanian ancestry. Quote:
http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celjski_grofje

" Poreklo Žovneških svobodnih gospodov, oziroma kasnejših Celjskih grofov, ni točno znano. Askvinci so se v 11. stoletju nahajali približno na istem območju, kjer v 12. stoletju srečamo Savinjske oziroma Žovneške gospode, zato se domneva o askvinskem poreklu zdi najbolj verjetna.^[6] To je danes prevladujoče mnenje, po Pirchegerju pa je bil začetnik Žovneških neki Preslav, ki nosi slovansko ime.^[7] V preteklosti so iz Celjskih grofov skušali narediti slovenske vladarje. Po Orožnu naj bi bili potomci karantanskih slovenskih prednikov.^[8]
Posebnost slovenskih dežel je bila, da se je plemstvo oblikovalo med germanskim in slovanskim svetom; plemiške družine so pogosto prihajale iz nemških dežel, a so zaradi slovanskega zaledja in karantanske tradicije vsaj do konca 15. stoletja postajale dvojezične.^[11] Kot povzpetniški plemiči so Žovneški oziroma Celjski gotovo čislali uporabo nemškega jezika: že sredi 13. stoletja je neki Der von Sounegge, če je slednji res bil Žovneški gospod, pisal trubadurske lirične pesmi v nemškem jeziku. Ko je Ana Celjska, nečakinja Hermana II. 150 let kasneje prišla na poljski dvor, ni znala drugega jezika kakor nemško (seveda iz zornega kota Poljakov).^[12] Toda na drugi strani najdemo Ulrika II. Žovneškega, ki je leta 1306 svoje kmete poučeval, kako omejiti škodo, ki so jo prinašali roji kobilic, torej je z njimi verjetno govoril slovansko.^[13] Ulrikova pravoslavna žena Katarina je po drugi strani še v 15. stoletju goriškemu grofu Lenartu napisala slovansko pismo v cirilici, pri čemer se je Lenart te pisave lahko priučil le v času bivanja na dvoru Celjskih, kjer so tedaj bivali tudi pravoslavni duhovniki.^[12] Iz vidika deželne identitete in uporabe slovanskega in germanskega jezika izvorno poreklo Celjskih grofov (ki se ga sploh ne da z gotovostjo določiti) izgubi na pomenu, saj se po svoji dvojezičnosti in srednjeveški identiteti niso v ničemer razlikovali od večine ostalega plemstva na tleh današnje Slovenije. Najverjetneje se niso imeli ne za Slovence (to je arhaičen izraz za Slovane) in ne za Nemce, ampak so bili, kakor pravi Igor Grdina, predvsem sebi lastni.^[12]"

Use a google translate. I have no interest of translating this text into English.


"I never seen any link to northern Anatolia in regards to this practice"

If you have a time machine, and if you have visited those places, then i will believe you...

Common historical belief is that Etruscans came from Anatolia into Italy. Etruscans gave original names to current Italian cities; Rome derives from Etruscan Ruma, Perugia was Perusna, Pupolonia was Fuflusna (Fuflunz god), Bologna was Felsna, Felsina, Velzna, Firence were Firent/Birent, etc

Besides later Romans (named after Etruscan Ruma) tried to present Etruscans as savages. I wouldn't be surprised if they were even perverting the whole picture and their culture in their own sources; one thing is clear; Etruscans were wiped out because of Latin population.
Etruscans were an emancipated nation; Kama Sutra was indeed part of their daily, cultural life. But i do not buy latin sources about Etruscans as being "dissolute, perverse " too much.

What is perverse if that was their culture.........only in today's society do we claim this......not in ancient times, where rulers had large concubines.

example, sultans had harems.........they where fine in those olden days, but not know

Etruscan genetic studies as from 2013 state the etruscans came from the northern part of the alps around 900BC and 4000 years before this date from Anatolia. It cannot be a sea voyage to Italy

 

[FrankN]

Hey, Mr. Moderator! Is there any specific reason for which my post from last Thursday has not yet passed the "political correctness" test?

 

[Yetos]

Etruscan genetic studies as from 2013 state the etruscans came from the northern part of the alps around 900BC and 4000 years before this date from Anatolia. It cannot be a sea voyage to Italy

yes it is a maritime devastation

minor asian started to colognise Italian peninsulla by sea 7-9000 ago.
the last 3 historical known is the Ionian Greek, the Pelasgian Thyrsenoi and the Etruscan (Hatria). yet there were many others before Troyan war,
All by sea,
in fact I believe that Villanovan culture was a minor Asian culture and not an IE,

to understand the puzzle, search why Etruscans moved back to Swiss after Roman wars,
and to solve the puzzle search the mtDNA X2. there you will find many answers,
Etruscans were Sea peoples, and before them other Hattians came to Italy and found homeland in North of the peninsulla

 

[Sile]

yes it is a maritime devastation

minor asian started to colognise Italian peninsulla by sea 7-9000 ago.
the last 3 historical known is the Ionian Greek, the Pelasgian Thyrsenoi and the Etruscan (Hatria). yet there were many others before Troyan war,
All by sea,
in fact I believe that Villanovan culture was a minor Asian culture and not an IE,

to understand the puzzle, search why Etruscans moved back to Swiss after Roman wars,
and to solve the puzzle search the mtDNA X2. there you will find many answers,
Etruscans were Sea peoples, and before them other Hattians came to Italy and found homeland in North of the peninsulla

I do not know what you are trying to say, but facts are the Etruscans arrived in Tuscany ~800BC........If they arrived by sea, how did they teach the Raetic people in the alps ( who are older in time than the Etruscans) a similar etruscan language ?
Is it because they fled there when the gallic people invaded Italy around 550BC , this is an old fabricated story and shows little logic to the missing 500 plus years of the raetic, camunic, lepontic , venetic languages.

The paper states , the etruscans left anatolia a few thousand years earlier and settled around modern southern Germany, they then moved over the alps into etruria ( which is how they got their etruscan name) when the celts started moving south from central germany ( I am talking bronze -age )