Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...

It is no secret that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..it was logical ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and it is quite evident in genetics ...
In the record is mentions Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...

And probably larger part of Serbs in the time of Ottoman Empire converted to Islam and Roman Catholic faith (later small number is converted to Protestantism). And Serbs were Roman Catholic in substantial numbers before Ottoman Empire came to the Balkans. And what?

It doesn't matter. Today's nations are social constructions, not genetic. Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs have same genetics (Y-DNA), no matter whether I2a, E-V13 etc. Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians who converted in Islam today are Bosniacs, the same is true for those who have converted to Catholicism, they are Croats today, and for those who have converted to Orthodox Christianity, they are Serbs. But haplogroups of these male people are same.

Nations and religions have nothing to do with haplogroups.

If someone wants find differences between male Croats, Serbs, Bosniacs, etc. he or she can analyze R1a.

Clades of R1a have differences:

R1a_Slowian_2.png

Chart_R1a.png

According it is:

Much better thanks.

I can see few groups, proportionally regarding R1a clads to each other.



Slavs that group together.

- Serbs, Bosniaks, Macedonians and some Russian and Belarusian places.

- Poles, Slovaks (but not Wroclaw, many citizens come from Ukraine and Belarus).

- Croatians with Czechs.

- Bulgarians with Russians from Kostroma and Ivano-Frankfurt

- Slovenia is standing out.

Z282 seems to be East European


This is for a quick glance only.

Plus Herzegovina, Macedonia, Serbia not only are similar but have the lowest percentage of R1a (plus in Serbia was found R1a Z95 that is different than typical clades of population of Slavic countires).
 




Plus Herzegovina, Macedonia, Serbia not only are similar but have the lowest percentage of R1a

Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs have same genetics (Y-DNA),

How we have same genetics when you have less R1a haplotype then Croats..

Second haplotype in the Serbian population is E1b type ... and that is different between Serbs and Croats in which on the second place in population is R1a..

And probably larger part of Serbs in the time of Ottoman Empire converted to Islam and Roman Catholic faith

Turks fought against Catholic Europe and the Serbs as Turkish allies switch to Catholicism ..... do not fool around...

And Serbs were Roman Catholic in substantial numbers before Ottoman Empire came to the Balkans. And what?

religion, language, customs, can not to change genes .. still on the Balkans comes only Croats who later divided and become this or that ... that is genetically irrefutably...

It is not possible that from White Croatia comes Bosnians, Turks, Chinese and Germans .. they can come only and exclusively as Croats...it is logic..how they feel today, and which nation they belong can not change their White Croatian origin...
 
Slovenians have mainly Dinaric north, he does not exist anymore but I think that Bulgarians and Macedonians had mainly this type haplotype ... therefore differences between the west and the south Balkans are not visible..

It should see what types I2a have Macedonians, Bulgarians and Slovenians...





In southern Poland is ancestor of Croatian I2a ... in the German and Greek I do not know which are haplotypes so you explain which haplotypes are there..

I think, and from what I can read,
Croatia has primary R1a in the west of Dinaric Alps, and I2 in the east,
I2 is also very high and relative/common with Bosnia Srbia Bulgaria and Skopje and considerable in Romania.
Bosnia Serbia Croatia for linguists is almost the same language that evolute after 800 Ad
plz when you say Makedonia, identify, cause Greece has high enough R1a in Makedonia bigger than any other Balkan country except Dalmatia. even bigger than Zagreb area
so R1a is showing Greece, none, Dalmatia, none, Poland Germany,
meaning that in Bulgaria Romania we know that is from the Severi and came from the east of Europe,
but in Bosnia Serbia came from abone Hungary,
so, I am not speaking about Croatia, a country and modern nationality, but for the 'original' tribe/nation before 1500 years
if it was I2 or R1a,
the distribution of R1a and I2 in Crotia shows clearly what I am saying,
so what do you believe?
original Hrvats/Croats before 1500 were I2? or R1a? I mean the ones in Zagreb I2 core? or the ones in Dalmatia R1a core?

the existance of E is another case, as also the J the R1b, which are connected possibly with substractum populations like R1b can be from Mycenean times (vatin and Vucocar) or Celtic/Aromani plus R1a from 5,5ky from Vinca destruction or recent Slavic from times of Cymeon or Dusan ( I doupt, concentrations reaching more than 28% have not beeen found in found Balkans except Dalmatia)

Personally I believe that 'original' tribal' Croats are the Zagreb area ones, and were and are connected with Serbs and Bosnians, but created their own culture and nationality, as also the Bosnians, and Serbs and not the Dalmatian R1a ones,
in case of oposite, R1a to was the primary of 'tribal croats, the linguistic relativity can not be explained with rest South Slavs.

I think you understand me well, but it is difficult for you to choose, cause modern ethnicities, are 'what we have'
 
As I said before, judging by ratio of R1a clads Croatians relate the most to Czechs. Also not too far from Ukrainian Czerkasy region. It is what genetic says, it is logic!

Chart_R1a.png
 
As I said before, judging by ratio of R1a clads Croatians relate the most to Czechs. Also not too far from Ukrainian Czerkasy region. It is what genetic says, it is logic!

Chart_R1a.png


What's wrong with you ?

Croats do not have R1a M458, they have R1a Z280 type...I told you that a hundred times..

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=ymap

Croats haplogroup R1a represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subclade Z280 CTS3402

I. Rozhansky

2013/10/18


http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/
 
How we have same genetics when you have less R1a haplotype then Croats..

Second haplotype in the Serbian population is E1b type ... and that is different between Serbs and Croats in which on the second place in population is R1a..

Yes, Y-DNA is same/similar, the difference is in proportion.

You can see in Eupedia (where Maciamo collected all scientific studies):

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I1: Serbia 8.5%, Croatia 5.5% (Do you think that someone can knows according I1 who is Serb, who is Croat?)

I2a: Serbia 33%, Croatia 37% (Do you think that someone can knows according I2a who is Serb, who is Croat?)

R1a: Serbia 16%, Croatia 24% (Do you think that someone can knows according R1a who is Serb, who is Croat? Maybe only for Z95, and other atypical clades of population of Slavic countries which exist in Serbia).

R1b: Serbia 8.5%, Croatia 8.5% (same question).

G: Serbia 2%, Croatia 2.5% (same question).

J2: Serbia 8%, Croatia 6% (same question).

E-V13: Serbia 18%, Croatia 10% (same question; this is difference only in proportion, and not drastically big).

T: Serbia 1%, Croatia 0.5% (same question).

Q: Serbia 1.5%, Croatia 1% (same question).

N: Serbia 2%, Croatia 0.5% (same question).


Turks fought against Catholic Europe and the Serbs as Turkish allies switch to Catholicism ..... do not fool around...

Maybe you don't know the history or you're malicious?

Turks destroyed Serbian state.

Serbs have been for centuries one of the main ally of Austria and Hungary against the Turks.

For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Serbia#Austrian-Ottoman_War

[h=3]Austria and Serbia[/h] European powers, and Austria in particular, fought many wars against the Ottoman Empire, relying on the help of the Serbs that lived under Ottoman rule. During the Austrian–Turkish War (1593–1606), in 1594, the Serbs staged an uprising in Banat, the Pannonian part of Turkey. Sultan Murad III retaliated by burning the remains of Saint Sava the most sacred saint of all Serbs. Serbs created another center of resistance in Herzegovina, but when peace was signed by Turkey and Austria, they were abandoned to Turkish vengeance. This sequence of events became usual in the centuries that followed.


About Military Frontier (Military Krajina):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier

[h=3]Military Frontier or Military Border (Serbian/Croatian Vojna granica, Vojna Krajina)[/h]The Military Frontier (also known as Military Border and Military Krajina; Croatian: Vojna granica, Vojna krajina; Serbian: Vojna granica / Војна граница, Vojna krajina / Војна Крајина; Slovene: Vojna krajina; German: Militärgrenze; Hungarian: Katonai határőrvidék; Romanian: Graniţă militară) was a borderland of Habsburg Austria and later the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which acted as the cordon sanitaire against incursions from the Ottoman Empire.


Militargrenze,_Wojwodowena_und_Banat.jpg


Demographics:

1857The first modern population census in the Austrian Empire was conducted in 1857 and recorded the religion of the population. The population of the Military Frontier numbered 1,062,072 inhabitants,[10] while the religious structure of the Military Frontier was:



Population data by divisions:


Croatian-Slavonian Military Frontier (Total 675,817)[11]



Banat Military Frontier (Total 386,255)[12]



Someone can reads:

Eastern Orthodox = Serbs;
Roman Catholics = mainly Croats and Hungarians.

You can see Serbs, Croats, Hungarians, Germans etc. were on the same side in wars with Ottomans.

Austrian Turkish wars were from 16th to 18th century.


It is not possible that from White Croatia comes Bosnians, Turks, Chinese and Germans .. they can come only and exclusively as Croats...it is logic..how they feel today, and which nation they belong can not change their White Croatian origin...

You can read what LeBrok wrote:

Do you mean: "My romantic vision of imaginary history"?

...
By the way.

It is completely wrong to think that a haplogroup comes from some of the nation.

At a time when haplogroups emerged nation did not exist.

Nations have formed incomparably much later from carriers of different haplogroups and they are social constructions.
 

the existance of E is another case, as also the J the R1b, which are connected possibly with substractum populations like R1b can be from Mycenean times (vatin and Vucocar) or Celtic/Aromani plus R1a from 5,5ky from Vinca destruction or recent Slavic from times of Cymeon or Dusan ( I doupt, concentrations reaching more than 28% have not beeen found in found Balkans except Dalmatia)

Whether is E1b Chinese, Russian, Turkish or Mycenean does not matter because in Croatia they coming with Vlach people.....E1b is Albanian today so this Vlacs are part of Albanian origin...whether they were before Chinese, Turks or Greeks for me is not important because I'm not interested with this haplogroup and I do not know...If it is proved that E1b comes from Greek to Albania when it was mentioned Greek state or Greek(Hellenes) as people then E1b could be Greek origin. If ancestors of White Croats live in southe Poland I can not say that these are White Croats because there is no mention White Croats before 2,000 thousand years...There at that time live there some other tribes for which I can not confirm that they are White Croats because are not mentioned as Croats same with Mycenean in Greece...You can Myceneans call Greeks but they're not called Greeks they are Myceneans..Only if their haplotypes same with Greek then we could say that this is one nation ..
 


Serbs have been for centuries one of the main ally of Austria and Hungary against the Turks.

Battle of Nicopolis


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis


Do you think that someone can knows according I2a who is Serb, who is Croat?

If it has haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and mutation I-Y3548 everything is clearly his ancestors come to the Balkans as Croats...It is the logic...


most part of them they Orthodox Vlachs or Albanians by genetic and Croatians... smaller number of them were Serbian origin
 
Whether is E1b Chinese, Russian, Turkish or Mycenean does not matter because in Croatia they coming with Vlach people.....E1b is Albanian today so this Vlacs are part of Albanian origin...whether they were before Chinese, Turks or Greeks for me is not important because I'm not interested with this haplogroup and I do not know...If it is proved that E1b comes from Greek to Albania when it was mentioned Greek state or Greek(Hellenes) as people then E1b could be Greek origin. If ancestors of White Croats live in southe Poland I can not say that these are White Croats because there is no mention White Croats before 2,000 thousand years...There at that time live there some other tribes for which I can not confirm that they are White Croats because are not mentioned as Croats same with Mycenean in Greece...You can Myceneans call Greeks but they're not called Greeks they are Myceneans..Only if their haplotypes same with Greek then we could say that this is one nation ..

you avoid answer me, and you say tottaly different,

plz read again, and aswer me clearly,
 

Personally I believe that 'original' tribal' Croats are the Zagreb area ones, and were and are connected with Serbs and Bosnians, but created their own culture and nationality, as also the Bosnians, and Serbs and not the Dalmatian R1a ones,
in case of oposite, R1a to was the primary of 'tribal croats, the linguistic relativity can not be explained with rest South Slavs.

In the western Croatia I2a is in second place, first is R1a .... this same type R1a has a big part of 16 percent Serbs in Serbia ...Serbs have E1b haplotype second in population which has no connection with immigration Slavs and with Slavs, and western Croatia is something else...What's your logic ? ...What does language, folk customs have with genes, E1b is not Slavic haplotype and in Serbia 20 percent of the population with that haplotype speak Slavic..
 


the distribution of R1a and I2 in Crotia shows clearly what I am saying,
so what do you believe?
original Hrvats/Croats before 1500 were I2? or R1a? I mean the ones in Zagreb I2 core? or the ones in Dalmatia R1a core?

Croatian type R1a has epicenter in southern Poland around Krakow...whether is there his source I do not know but we can assume ....when the first data about that arrive then we can talk about it, until then I do not know..
 

And it is irrelevant to the general conclusion. Serbia was at that time a vassal state.

Incomparably more important that the Serbs were the allies of Austria and Hungary by centuries. Serbs were defending long southern border against the Turks. And for it Serbs were highly regarded by the Austrian emperors.


If it has haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and mutation I-Y3548 everything is clearly his ancestors come to the Balkans as Croats...It is the logic...

It is only your logic.

Every man who has that haplogroup and he is not Croat you say to him: "You must be Croat because I say it".
...

Nations are not genetic categories.


most part of them they Orthodox Vlachs or Albanians by genetic and Croatians... smaller number of them were Serbian origin

And here you try to be malicious, but why, you don't like... ?


I gave sources with Wikipedia, here is more:

http://feefhs.org/links/croatia/milz.html

In order to stem the Turkish tide, the Habsburg court created in 1528 a zone in Croatia ruled directly from Vienna (instead of through the Hungarian nobility), in which land ownership was dependent on providing military service. These frontier troops were predominantly Serb, Croat and German. This zone was called the Militär Grenze (Military Frontier, Vojna krajina).
...

Rieber, A. The Struggle for the Eurasian Borderlands


https://books.google.rs/books?id=s6...ilitary Border Frontier Austria Serbs&f=false

The soldiers, mainly Serbs, who had served during the war received tax free farm plots as frontier colonists. Their dual function was to protect the borders against the Turks... The Austrians attempted to separate the civil (tax-paying) and military (tax-exempt) elements among the Serbs...

...

http://www.h-net.org/~fisher/bosnia/readings/Jelavich3.html

The Serbian population of the empire lived in circumstances quite different from those of the majority of the inhabitants of the Habsburg Empire. They controlled no definite portion of territory, and they were of the Orthodox religion, which was under attack in other parts of the monarchy.

...
Billinis A., The Eagles Has Two Faces

https://books.google.rs/books?id=jr...ilitary Border Frontier Austria Serbs&f=false

Serbian irregulars had fought doggedly and well for the Austrians, and Serbs certainly posseded a hattred of the Turks and the desire to live in a more developed society and economy.

...
Sorry hrvat22.

There were no Albanians in Krajina. In Military Krajina (Frontier Border) orthodox Chrisitans were Serbs (and partly in Banat, Romanians).
...

I have no desire to bicker with you, you can find some another person.

But I will tell you why I appreciate Tito. He has tried to build brotherhood and unity and elevates above the destructive nationalisms of all kinds. He was on the right track when Yugoslav communists won the war. They made a solid basis but nationalists have acted and with support from outside they tried to undermine foundations of SFRY. Maybe that Tito allowed democratization of the country in the seventies, when he was alive, maybe the whole country was in the EU as Spain in eighties, and maybe we all would have much higher standard, and ethnic differences were as in another european multinational countries.
...

But it doesn't matter. This is not topic about Mlitary Krajina, or Croatia or another Slavic countries, etc., this is thread about Pelasgians and their DNA.
 
In the western Croatia I2a is in second place, first is R1a .... this same type R1a has a big part of 16 percent Serbs in Serbia ...Serbs have E1b haplotype second in population which has no connection with immigration Slavs and with Slavs, and western Croatia is something else...What's your logic ? ...What does language, folk customs have with genes, E1b is not Slavic haplotype and in Serbia 20 percent of the population with that haplotype speak Slavic..

ok to put the question correct,
First we exclude E J G R1b I1 as previous, before slavic migrations, synthesis, as non characteristic of 'tribal' Serbs or Croats

then we see the 2 major or possible hgs I2 and R1a
then we see the distribution in wide balkans,
the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,
watching Bosnia we see also something simmilar, and same in Serbia, while the r1a/I2 in more south Skopje IS OBVIOUS, south lacks of R1a, you have to travel to mainland Greek Makedonia Thessaly to find again considerable R1a quantities,

so my question is,
what do you believe?
original tribal Croats were R1a or I2?
if you
notice and observe locally maps and distribution its easy to understand what I am talking about,
cause if Croats were major I2 as ALL THE REST SOUTH SLAVIC, Then they possibly were 'relatives' with Bosnians and Serbs and even Skopje,
but if Croats were primary R1a then Croats have nothing to do with rest South Slavic populations of I2,
and the strange the thesis of Linguists which gave Hravt and Srbian as dialects coming from one same language. (I consider Bosnian if we can identify as dialect/language, sprunk also from that)
 
ok to put the question correct,
First we exclude E J G R1b I1 as previous, before slavic migrations, synthesis, as non characteristic of 'tribal' Serbs or Croats

then we see the 2 major or possible hgs I2 and R1a
then we see the distribution in wide balkans,
the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,
watching Bosnia we see also something simmilar, and same in Serbia, while the r1a/I2 in more south Skopje IS OBVIOUS, south lacks of R1a, you have to travel to mainland Greek Makedonia Thessaly to find again considerable R1a quantities,

so my question is,
what do you believe?
original tribal Croats were R1a or I2?
if you
notice and observe locally maps and distribution its easy to understand what I am talking about,
cause if Croats were major I2 as ALL THE REST SOUTH SLAVIC, Then they possibly were 'relatives' with Bosnians and Serbs and even Skopje,
but if Croats were primary R1a then Croats have nothing to do with rest South Slavic populations of I2,
and the strange the thesis of Linguists which gave Hravt and Srbian as dialects coming from one same language. (I consider Bosnian if we can identify as dialect/language, sprunk also from that)

f Croats were major I2 as ALL THE REST SOUTH SLAVIC, Then they possibly were 'relatives' with Bosnians and Serbs and even Skopje,


what relatives .... I2a1b2a1a3 A356 haplotype comes from White Croatia with Croatian people to balkans who later become Bosnians, Montenegrins, etc ...what if that haplotype exists in Macedonia or Bulgaria.. same exists in Belarus, Ukraine, Slovenia, Russia and still has its source in White Croatia...Albanian E1b exists in Croatia, and again this E1b is Albanian origin, what does it matter if exists in Croatia or Slovenia..I told you that I do not know that in Macedonia exists I2a1b2a1a3 A356 haplotype...give me data which is Macedonian and Bulgarian I2a..there are more haplotypes who have White Croatian mutation....

I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983


the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,

So what then, when we get data for age and time R1a Z280 in Balkans then we can talk, until then we can talk fairy tales .. Only thing I know is that the R1a has epicenter in the area where is source of Croatian I2a, whether it is related or not we will see...


Russian geneticist
I. Rozhansky
2013/10/18

Apparently White Croats from Carpathians and Croats to the Adriatic they are really related peoples. About Lusatian Sorbs and Danubian Serbs we can not say - they are too different lineage ...


http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/

but if Croats were primary R1a then Croats have nothing to do with rest South Slavic populations of I2,

How can be R1a primary when I2a which Croats have is formed in White Croatia and is in the epicenter of Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Dalmatia up to 70 percent....

It is logical that for Croats is primary I2a...It possible that is R1a formed in the southern Poland and then he will be primary for Croats along with I2a haplotype...

and the strange the thesis of Linguists which gave Hravt and Srbian as dialects coming from one same language. (I consider Bosnian if we can identify as dialect/language, sprunk also from that

If we cam as one people Croats which language we are speak, logically Croatian..
 
ok to put the question correct,
First we exclude E J G R1b I1 as previous, before slavic migrations, synthesis, as non characteristic of 'tribal' Serbs or Croats

then we see the 2 major or possible hgs I2 and R1a
then we see the distribution in wide balkans,
the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,
watching Bosnia we see also something simmilar, and same in Serbia, while the r1a/I2 in more south Skopje IS OBVIOUS, south lacks of R1a, you have to travel to mainland Greek Makedonia Thessaly to find again considerable R1a quantities,

so my question is,
what do you believe?
original tribal Croats were R1a or I2?
if you
notice and observe locally maps and distribution its easy to understand what I am talking about,
cause if Croats were major I2 as ALL THE REST SOUTH SLAVIC, Then they possibly were 'relatives' with Bosnians and Serbs and even Skopje,
but if Croats were primary R1a then Croats have nothing to do with rest South Slavic populations of I2,
and the strange the thesis of Linguists which gave Hravt and Srbian as dialects coming from one same language. (I consider Bosnian if we can identify as dialect/language, sprunk also from that)

He thinks in terms: nation = haplogroup (for example: I2a DYN S are Croats, E-V13 are Albanians etc.), but it is nonsense. And every reasonable discussion is not possible.

But you showed him that the people of Herzegovina and the Croatian mainland is very different in haplogroups.

He didn't told me next questions:

Do you think that someone can knows according I1a (or another haplogroup) who is Serb, who is Croat?

I2a: Serbia 33% about 1.170.000 males, Croatia 37% about 790.000 males.

There are much more males I2a carriers In Serbia than in Croatia.

And some Serbian nationalist can say: I2a are Serbs by origin, they are from White Serbia.

Nationalists are as children.
...

But we are trying to come up with some knowledge. You can see in this forum opinions are divided: if I2a Dyn S is Balkan origin or I2a carriers came from North.

Mihaitzateo gives one interesting research:

Here is a genetic study about Aromanians:
Lowest Y DNA I they have is 17%:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies
Highest I they got is 42%.
Also,they got plenty of J2 and plenty of R1b.
Also,they have low R1A,some group of Aromanians even have 0% R1A.
So guess again what Y DNA mostly brought the Slavic speakers that moved around 600 AD.
I think it is R1A clades.

Sample population
Sample sizeR1bR1aIE1b1bE1b1aJGNTL
Aromanians from Dukasi, Albania[62]
392.62.617.917.90.048.710.30.00.00.0
Aromanians from Andon Poci, Albania[62]
1936.80.042.115.80.05.30.00.00.00.0
Aromanians from Kruševo, Macedonia[62]
4327.911.620.920.90.011.67.00.00.00.0
Aromanians from Štip, Macedonia[62]
6523.121.516.918.50.020.00.00.00.00.0
Aromanians in Romania[62]
4223.82.419.07.10.033.30.0
(the link to the study :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/epdf - Romanians in this study are also high on I1 and R1B but not that high in R1A)
Please note that Aromanians that have highest R1A are those living in Macedonia/FYROM.
Quite clear from where they got the R1A,from Slavic males there.

According that Aromanians have significant percentage of haplogroup I (mainly I2a) but much lower percentage haplogroup R1a (except for Macedonia where it is possible that R1a came from Slavic males).

(But maybe Aromanians came from White Croatia or White Serbia, hm....)

And it is possible Thracians and Illyrians were I2a carriers. According Maciamo I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians.

I have given more thought about the origin of I2a-Din (L621>L147.2) and came to the following conclusion.

During the Mesolithic the I2a1 (P37.2) hunter-gatherers must have occupied a vast part of western, central and eastern Europe. Central and western European I2a1 lineages only survive at low frequencies in three newly identified subclades: L1286, L1294 and L880. The south-western M26 branch was absorbed by Neolithic farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture, whose descendants are found mostly in modern Sardinians and Basques.

The eastern branch, I2a1b (M423) were hunter-gatherers from the Carpathian region and/or from further north (Poland, Belarus, western Ukraine). Those in the Carpathian basin would have mixed with Middle Eastern Neolithic farmers and founded the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). The whole region from Romania to Poland would then have been absorbed by the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware culture (2900-2400 BCE).

After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.

The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples (I2a1b) and Indo-Europeans (R1a) sometime between 3000 and 1500 BCE.

The Illyrians, an IE tribe who conquered the territory of former Yugoslavia circa 1200-1000 BCE, might have been an offshoot from the Dacians or the Thracians, or a closely related tribe from the Carpathian basin.

I used to think that I2a1b in the Dinaric Alps were the remnants of the original hunter-gatherers and that only the I2a1b outside the Dinaric Alps and Balkans were integrated to the Corded Ware culture and became Proto-Slavs, then Slavs. However there is so little difference between the Dinaric and other Eastern European I2a1b, all belonging to the same deep subclade (L621>CTS4002>...>L147.2) that they must all descend from a fairly recent ancestor and have expanded no earlier than 3000 to 1500 BCE.

...
When Slavic peoples came to the Balkans probably I2a and R1a carriers already existed. One study in Serbia conducted from American scientists tells that R1a came to the Serbia three times in different epochs, and two times much earlier than with Slavic people (third time).

...
Yetos, what is important to reveal.

Original I2 languages. It is probably these languages existed but they dissapeared.

Today people in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia etc. speak Slavic language. It is same language every Serb, Bosniac and Croat can communicate each other without problems, because differences are minor.

There are opinions among some scientists that Thracian language was similar Balto Slavic, and Dacian, etc... It is not track.

But we are not without hope, maybe we can search some of I2 language but in another places (maybe Nuragic in Sardinia?).

...
Many more are not known. Important dices of knowledge is missing. Science is now going in the direction that reveals haplogroups Europeans in earlier epochs, and it brings significant new knowledge. When we know haplogroups of Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians and another peoples in Balkans in the past in different epocs (for example Vinca culture, Starcevo, Dudesti etc.), progress will be evident.
 
I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...

It is no secret that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..it was logical ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and it is quite evident in genetics ...
In the record is mentions Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...


Porphyrogenitus stated that one family of White Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia...
Priest of Duklja wrote about Red and White Croatia all the way to Albania ...

Therefore it is genetically confirmed.

:useless:

The problem among Croatia and Serbia is that they show the closest linguistic relativity, to be even considered as one language, common geneticks in the core, but different around the core,
now the religious difference, and later historical split due to politicks is another case, away from me to discuss
It is a different lanaguge, as same as Australian and American are ;)


How we have same genetics when you have less R1a haplotype then Croats..
Second haplotype in the Serbian population is E1b type ... and that is different between Serbs and Croats in which on the second place in population is R1a..

You're intermixing Serbs and Serbians.


Personally I believe that 'original' tribal' Croats are the Zagreb area ones, and were and are connected with Serbs and Bosnians, but created their own culture and nationality, as also the Bosnians, and Serbs and not the Dalmatian R1a ones, in case of oposite, R1a to was the primary of 'tribal croats, the linguistic relativity can not be explained with rest South Slavs.

That's exactly what "real" Croats thought of themselves throughout the history. And they had disrespectful attitude towards the other part of population. Now that it turned out that there is more I2a on the territories that Croatian clergy would like to control, derogatory terminology evaporated and they started claiming the opposite - that those no good dirty peasants, as they once used to call them, are in fact the real Croats :)

It's funny to watch now, how nationalistic branches fight to be what they hated the most.

Whether is E1b Chinese, Russian, Turkish or Mycenean does not matter because in Croatia they coming with Vlach people.....E1b is Albanian today so this Vlacs are part of Albanian origin...whether they were before Chinese, Turks or Greeks for me is not important because I'm not interested with this haplogroup and I do not know....

Facepalm x2. Really? Today it is, and it wasn't before? How did it come to be Albanian? How does a nation gets an ownership over a haplogroup anyway?
 



In area of Ilirik, Dalmatia and Pannonia is maximum haplotypes which comes from White Croatia...Therefore claim of Porfirogenet that Croats inhabited Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia is correct...


That's exactly what "real" Croats thought of themselves throughout the history. And they had disrespectful attitude towards the other part of population. Now that it turned out that there is more I2a on the territories that Croatian clergy would like to control,


ahaha biggest nationalists in the history of Croatia, Croatian fascists are exactly Dalmatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina to Drina River seen as epicenter of Croatian people, what kind Zagreb hahaha...and without genetic research, it is now clear that they were right ... Genetics is relentless..

It's funny to watch now, how nationalistic branches fight to be what they hated the most.

Zagreb hahaha, therefore Croatian eternal politics is borders on Drina river...


Facepalm x2. Really? Today it is, and it wasn't before? How did it come to be Albanian? How does a nation gets an ownership over a haplogroup anyway?

Do you have information that in Croatia arrived Vlachs or Albanians...hhahaha

They are Albanian origin and they did not come as Albanians but Vlachs therefore I call them Vlachs...logic
 
There's several problems with that: that Bouckaert paper was discussed quite extensively a while back in this thread, and it was dissected badly over there because it doesn't make any sense. Especially the proposed "homelands" don't make any sense (Balto-Slavic in particular, it assumes a homeland in an area where - at large - Slavic languages weren't spoken until the Migration Period), and the paper seemed utterly ignorant of obviously attested Indo-European languages like Celtiberian in Iberia, and the Scytho-Sarmatian languages in Central Asia.

Also, we don't know what kind of script the Vinca "script" was (or if it even was a real writing system at all), let alone what language it was used to write. Also, both Egyptian hieroglyphs and the Cuneiform script of Mesopotamia bear no relation to it. I'd also like to reiterate that the advent of agriculture was in the Near East, not in Europe. To me the idea "out of the Balkans, the light of civilization" sounds to me just like thinly-veiled Balkans nationalism where the modern-day nations of the Balkans (be it Albania, Serbia, or whatever country you want to pick) is insanely projected into the far prehistoric past and proclaimed to have been "always there" and "the mother of all civilization". Which is nonsense, obviously.

Looks like obviously you dont get my point, i never said first civilizations spread from the balkans cause obviously civilization in Mesopotamia and Egypt is much different then the one say Vinca Culture.

And Definitely Vinca Culture is not a predecessor of Mesopotamia and Egypt

But we were arguing cause you said archeology doesnt lie about Egypt and Mesapotamia, and i replied with "you are wrong" cause Vinca Culture predates 8,000 ybp and the archeology is there it doesnt lie, not with high pyramids nor high tech buildings nor high tech cultures (lol) but it has buildings objects and scripts, and as of now its not deciphered that it is from indo european language, but surely those people had their mouth to speak, so they could write and read through those scripts. Looks like its Archaic kind of writing or symbols which obviously have meaning and could communicate through those. However definitely not as complex writing as of PEI.
Yet again not through some high tech archeological buildings and cultures Europe is de facto older than Egypt and Mesopotamia, and thats Vinca Culture. Do you agree or disagree please?

http://www.ancient-origins.net/anci...vilisation-script-oldest-writing-world-001343
 
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He thinks in terms: nation = haplogroup (for example: I2a DYN S are Croats, E-V13 are Albanians etc.), but it is nonsense. And every reasonable discussion is not possible.

I2a DYN S is not Croatian... Croatian is I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which has earlier mutation I-Y3548 that occurs and originate in White Croatia..It is the logic...Is not Chinese haplotype..


According that Aromanians have significant percentage of haplogroup I (mainly I2a)

Which specific haplotype..there are hundreds I2a..


When Slavic peoples came to the Balkans probably I2a and R1a carriers already existed.

I2a1b2a1a3 A356 comes from White Croatia and did not come before Croats, logic..

I have no data for R1a therefore is necessary to give me data for R1a Z280 CTS3402 in Balkans...


One study in Serbia conducted from American scientists tells that R1a came to the Serbia three times in different epochs, and two times much earlier than with Slavic people

There are hundreds haplotypes R1a that could reach Balkan thousand times, I ask you for R1a Z280 CTS3402 ...
 
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