Phenotypes of the Spaniards

[Maciamo]

Recently I have been watching Spanish series in original version on Netflix to brush up my Spanish. Spanish people are very mixed ethnically. They have Basque, Iberian, Celtic, Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Germanic and Arabic ancestry. It's not always easy to tell which phenotype is dominant in individuals. But in the series Cable Girls it struck me that quite a few actors possessed relatively clear-cut ethnic phenotypes. Here are some examples.


Celto-Germanic phenotype

Martiño Rivas, from Galicia, where the Hallstatt Celts and the Suebi settled in large numbers. He could pass for northern French, Belgian or Southwest German.


Celtic phenotype

Luis Fernandez, from Madrid. He has a classical Celtic look and could almost pass for an Irish.


Arabic phenotype

Antonio Velázquez, from Granada, the last bastion of Arabic rule in Iberia.


Basque phenotype

Yon González, who is from the Basque country (no surprise here). He could also easily pass for a Frenchman from Gascony/Aquitaine.


"Roman" phenotype

Juan Carlos Vellido, from Barcelona. He could pass for an Italian, especially from Central Italy I would think.

 

[Mordred]

I'm watching the European Cup in handball right now. There's no actors or hired people to do commercial gigs or models. Common people will show the phenotype of a country. With your specification, most would look Arabic and some Roman:

https://ehfeuro.eurohandball.com/men/2022/the-teams/details/MgWMV5j9xRq_yWHFr-av8A/spain/

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[Sir Philip]

I personally disagree about some things:

First of all Celtic, Arabic and Germanic are not phenotypes. I can understand the label of Roman "phenotype" as a phenotypical mix that gives off a roman bust look or an italian look(and that actor doesn't look very italian tbh, but passes in regions like campania).

I don't think Yon González is praticularly basque looking(and going by his surnames he is likely to have castilian ancestry). He passes in France, yes, but many spanish do, no matter if they're basque or not.

Luiz Fernández has a generic western european face, could even be italian from areas that have never been reached by celtic tribes.

And finally, Antonio Velázquez looks nothing "arab"(were you using it as an ethnic term referring to arabians?). The guy could pass in eastern mediterranean places but the term arab doesn't refer to a phenotype, unless you mean the arabid phenotype, which he doesn't belong to.

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[Maciamo]

I personally disagree about some things:

First of all Celtic, Arabic and Germanic are not phenotypes. I can understand the label of Roman "phenotype" as a phenotypical mix that gives off a roman bust look or an italian look(and that actor doesn't look very italian tbh, but passes in regions like campania).

Of course all these people are ethnically Spanish, but they clearly look very different from one another because they inherited genes for different ancestral phenotypes. Those phenotypes were diluted in the Iberian gene pool, so they aren't going to look exactly like people from other countries. It's the overall impression I am interested in.

I don't think Yon González is praticularly basque looking(and going by his surnames he is likely to have castilian ancestry). He passes in France, yes, but many spanish do, no matter if they're basque or not.

I disagree. I have studied for 3 months in Spain, in Barcelona, Salamanca and Sevilla, and travelled to almost every autonomous region. I have also travelled extensively all over France. In my opinion very few Spaniards could pass for French people. Those who do are usually Basque or Catalan, and only have similar phenotypes in Southwest France.

Luiz Fernández has a generic western european face, could even be italian from areas that have never been reached by celtic tribes.

I agree that he has a somewhat generic Western European face, but that is because the Celts settled across much of Western Europe. You may find similar looking people in Campania, but these are exceptions, not typical Campanians. I said he could pass for Irish, but he could also pass for English, Belgian, French, German, Austrian, North Italian... What all these areas have in common is a shared Celtic ancestry.

And finally, Antonio Velázquez looks nothing "arab"(were you using it as an ethnic term referring to arabians?). The guy could pass in eastern mediterranean places but the term arab doesn't refer to a phenotype, unless you mean the arabid phenotype, which he doesn't belong to.

By Arabic I mean from the region of origin of the first ethnic Arabs in the Arabic peninsula, i.e. around Jordan and Saudi Arabia. I thought first that his look could be a blend of Iberian and Phoenician/Carthaginian, but then Phoenicians are from Lebanon are closely related to the Arabs too. It's undeniable that both the Phoenicians and Arabs had a considerable genetic impact in Andalusia, especially in southern Andalusia. Cadiz, Huelva, Malaga, Almuñecar, Adra and Cartagena were all Punic colonies. Granada is not far north of Almuñecar and the region would have been peopled by descendants of Phoenicians even in Roman times.

I would say that Antonio Velázquez has substantial Punic and Arabic influences in his looks (more than the average Spaniard), if that suits you better.

 

[Sir Philip]

Of course all these people are ethnically Spanish, but they clearly look very different from one another because they inherited genes for different ancestral phenotypes. Those phenotypes were diluted in the Iberian gene pool, so they aren't going to look exactly like people from other countries. It's the overall impression I am interested in.



I disagree. I have studied for 3 months in Spain, in Barcelona, Salamanca and Sevilla, and travelled to almost every autonomous region. I have also travelled extensively all over France. In my opinion very few Spaniards could pass for French people. Those who do are usually Basque or Catalan, and only have similar phenotypes in Southwest France.



I agree that he has a somewhat generic Western European face, but that is because the Celts settled across much of Western Europe. You may find similar looking people in Campania, but these are exceptions, not typical Campanians. I said he could pass for Irish, but he could also pass for English, Belgian, French, German, Austrian, North Italian... What all these areas have in common is a shared Celtic ancestry.



By Arabic I mean from the region of origin of the first ethnic Arabs in the Arabic peninsula, i.e. around Jordan and Saudi Arabia. I thought first that his look could be a blend of Iberian and Phoenician/Carthaginian, but then Phoenicians are from Lebanon are closely related to the Arabs too. It's undeniable that both the Phoenicians and Arabs had a considerable genetic impact in Andalusia, especially in southern Andalusia. Cadiz, Huelva, Malaga, Almuñecar, Adra and Cartagena were all Punic colonies. Granada is not far north of Almuñecar and the region would have been peopled by descendants of Phoenicians even in Roman times.

I would say that Antonio Velázquez has substantial Punic and Arabic influences in his looks (more than the average Spaniard), if that suits you better.

I agree that spanish are generally different than french people, but I was just saying that the spaniards who pass as french are not necessarely from regions bordering France, most probably are and it makes sense, but it's not like you won't find any french passable spaniard in the rest of the country.

Phenotypes brought by Phoenicians in the south of Spain are, in my opinion, quite evident and yes phoenicians were from nowadays lebanon. But the moorish invaders(commonly called "arab") were largely ethnically north african(phenotypically i would say berberid and south med/saharid) only the elite was from Yemen or other middle eastern places.

Could you link me some arcticles about phoenician or moorish genetic influence in spain please? I read a couple some years ago but don't really remember the conclusions.

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[Vallicanus]

Great job, Maciamo.

Could you do the same for Italians and other nationalities too?

 

[Davidtab]

There is not "arab" component in Iberia, but there is a little "berber" component, mainly in West Iberia. When the muslims came in 8th century, they were much mainly berbers, a few sirians and a very few arabs.
We don?t know very much about the genetics in Iberia between Punic/Roman rule and Reconquest. What we know for sure is about genetics in Iberia since the end of Reconquest: https://www.xenomica.eu/2019/02/02/...vela-la-huella-musulmana-y-de-la-reconquista/
1.- Galicia and Portugal
2.- Asturias, Le?n, Extremadura and West Andalusia.
3.- Castille and East Andalusia.
4.- Basques
5.- Aragon and Valencia
6.- Catalonia and Balears (catalans are mainly occitan inmigrants, not a true ancient iberian population).
These are exactly the vectors of the reconquest and repopulation in Iberia since 8th century until today, so I believe it?s very risky associate phenotypes to more or less genetic composition, because the distribution of phenotypes characteristics in Iberia is not related with these genetic vectors, but mainly with climate conditions.
Iberia has mainly three big climate areas: North, from Oporto to Upper Valleys in Aragon (very rainy, few solar insolation per year, template/cold temperature), Central (hot in summer, cold in winter, lots of solar hours per year) and Mediterranean (Template temperature all year long and hot summer, lots of solar hours per year).

 

[Sir Philip]

There is not "arab" component in Iberia, but there is a little "berber" component, mainly in West Iberia. When the muslims came in 8th century, they were much mainly berbers, a few sirians and a very few arabs.
We don�t know very much about the genetics in Iberia between Punic/Roman rule and Reconquest. What we know for sure is about genetics in Iberia since the end of Reconquest: https://www.xenomica.eu/2019/02/02/...vela-la-huella-musulmana-y-de-la-reconquista/
1.- Galicia and Portugal
2.- Asturias, Le�n, Extremadura and West Andalusia.
3.- Castille and East Andalusia.
4.- Basques
5.- Aragon and Valencia
6.- Catalonia and Balears (catalans are mainly occitan inmigrants, not a true ancient iberian population).
These are exactly the vectors of the reconquest and repopulation in Iberia since 8th century until today, so I believe it�s very risky associate phenotypes to more or less genetic composition, because the distribution of phenotypes characteristics in Iberia is not related with these genetic vectors, but mainly with climate conditions.
Iberia has mainly three big climate areas: North, from Oporto to Upper Valleys in Aragon (very rainy, few solar insolation per year, template/cold temperature), Central (hot in summer, cold in winter, lots of solar hours per year) and Mediterranean (Template temperature all year long and hot summer, lots of solar hours per year).

Exactly, iberians(especially going westward) have a north african admix, not middle eastern.

That is, in my opinion, also observed in phenotypes: some spaniards would pass as north african(south mediterranid phenotype) as they can appear as darker, dolicocephalic and convex nosed. But I have never seen an Arabid looking spaniard or that looks arabian.

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[Mordred]

Exactly, iberians(especially going westward) have a north african admix, not middle eastern.

That is, in my opinion, also observed in phenotypes: some spaniards would pass as north african(south mediterranid phenotype) as they can appear as darker, dolicocephalic and convex nosed. But I have never seen an Arabid looking spaniard or that looks arabian.

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I agree with you.

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[Sir Philip]

I agree with you.

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North african admix is present in the iberian peninsula and sicily only, in europe(as far as I know).

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[Ailchu]

why does it have to be because arab or berber influence , when the biggest % of spanish ancestry is already from anatolia? you would expect there is going to be slight phenotypic overlap. for example Juan Carlos Vellida also has some similarity with near eastern people, more than Velazquez imo.

 

[Bill7]

I believe that the population with the most homogenous phenotypes in southern Europe have to be the Albanians. Here in Greece is easy to tell who is Albanian most of the time, especially male Albanians

 

[Sir Philip]

why does it have to be because arab or berber influence , when the biggest % of spanish ancestry is already from anatolia? you would expect there is going to be slight phenotypic overlap. for example Juan Carlos Vellida also has some similarity with near eastern people, more than Velazquez imo.

Totally agree, even if north african influence does exist.

Anatolian farmers form a big chunk of the ancestry of all southern europeans, the iberians simply have more hunter gatherer(west) ancestry than italians(especially southern and central) and greeks do.

Feel free to correct if I made mistakes.

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[Maciamo]

Here are a few more actors from the Netflix series High Seas.

Celto-Germanic type

Alejandra Onieva, from Madrid. She could easily pass for northern French.


Celtic type

Antonio Durán 'Morris' from Galicia. He looks Breton to me.

Natalia Rodríguez from Madrid. She could easily pass for Irish, British or North French.


Jewish type

José María Sacristán Turiégano from Madrid.


Spanish type (?)

Laura Prats from Barcelona. If I was asked what it is quintessential Spanish face I would choose her as an example. She might be a blend of ancient Iberian and Roman. Hard to tell. But the result looks undeniably Spanish.

 

[Maciamo]

There is not "arab" component in Iberia, but there is a little "berber" component, mainly in West Iberia. When the muslims came in 8th century, they were much mainly berbers, a few sirians and a very few arabs.
We don�t know very much about the genetics in Iberia between Punic/Roman rule and Reconquest. What we know for sure is about genetics in Iberia since the end of Reconquest: https://www.xenomica.eu/2019/02/02/...vela-la-huella-musulmana-y-de-la-reconquista/
1.- Galicia and Portugal
2.- Asturias, Le�n, Extremadura and West Andalusia.
3.- Castille and East Andalusia.
4.- Basques
5.- Aragon and Valencia
6.- Catalonia and Balears (catalans are mainly occitan inmigrants, not a true ancient iberian population).
These are exactly the vectors of the reconquest and repopulation in Iberia since 8th century until today, so I believe it�s very risky associate phenotypes to more or less genetic composition, because the distribution of phenotypes characteristics in Iberia is not related with these genetic vectors, but mainly with climate conditions.
Iberia has mainly three big climate areas: North, from Oporto to Upper Valleys in Aragon (very rainy, few solar insolation per year, template/cold temperature), Central (hot in summer, cold in winter, lots of solar hours per year) and Mediterranean (Template temperature all year long and hot summer, lots of solar hours per year).

You should read my Genetic history of the Spaniards and the Portuguese. There is definitely Arabic DNA in modern Spaniards, especially in the southern half of the country. Haplogroups that can be either Arabic or Jewish such as J1-P58, E-M84 and T1a make up to 10% of the population in Extremadura and Andalusia. The main Berber haplogroup (E-M81) is even higher (15% in Extremadura and 13% in Andalusia). So you are right to say that there is more North African than Arabic DNA in Spain, but not by much.

 

[Mmiikkii]

I don't think Yon González is praticularly basque looking(and going by his surnames he is likely to have castilian ancestry). He passes in France, yes, but many spanish do, no matter if they're basque or not.

Basques have a typical French or N.European phenotype.

This kind of milky, cheesy and grassy skin. Barely with hair...

 

[Sir Philip]

Basques have a typical French or N.European phenotype.

This kind of milky, cheesy and grassy skin. Barely with hair...

The basques don't look northern european. They do share similarities with the french though.

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[Mmiikkii]

The basques don't look northern european. They do share similarities with the french though.
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I don't mean Nordic. But to the North from Spain. Basques have very white skin. This kind of skin that is pale, milky and greasy. With an smooth look.

In contrast with the more southern type of European, the one that many people always think of "arabic/north african".
The 'Roman phenotype' or what Maciamo calls "Basque type".
Which in Spain should be the "Castillian type".

 

[Sir Philip]

I don't mean Nordic. But to the North from Spain. Basques have very white skin. This kind of skin that is pale, milky and greasy. With an smooth look.

In contrast with the more southern type of European, the one that many people always think of "arabic/north african".
The 'Roman phenotype' or what Maciamo calls "Basque type".
Which in Spain should be the "Castillian type".

Tbh I have checked more pics the "Roman" looking actor and he doesn't look roman at all. Better examples would be people who look closer to roman busts(of emperors/people of italic origin).


I read an old study by spanish anthopologist Hoyos Sainz who has the basques as the most light eyed group in Spain with 39% light eyes.

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[Mordred]

Tbh I have checked more pics the "Roman" looking actor and he doesn't look roman at all. Better examples would be people who look closer to roman busts(of emperors/people of italic origin).


I read an old study by spanish anthopologist Hoyos Sainz who has the basques as the most light eyed group in Spain with 39% light eyes.

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"with 39% light eyes"
Interesting. Do you have a link to the study?


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