Pinhasi et al-Ancient dna recovery

[Greying Wanderer]

I think the ease or difficulty of traveling through mountain passes also depends on whether there are lots of dudes throwing spears at you from the cliffs.

A mountain pass might be easy for small groups of traders to pass if they give the local chief some shiny metal to be allowed to pass and easy for a large strong army to force their way through but maybe not so easy for a smaller, weaker army.

So for example it might have been difficult for an early neolithic tribe to force the passes but easy for an organised army once they had bronze weapons and armor.

#

Interesting on Garrick's map that the silk road route avoided crossing Anatolia by land but headed for the closest bit of sea instead.

#

Also on Angela's map of farming spread it seems to spread directly west (i.e. along the same line of latitude as where it developed) faster than it spread north and south of the source - which is what you'd expect as the farming package would initially only be ideal for that climate. I think this speaks to the age of the Atlantic Megalith culture centered in Portugal. They were around early and for a long time.

 

[LeBrok]

Why Latvians are Mescech? If Slavs and Finns are Magog?

Lol, let's not waste any logic on this.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

I see no reason why the Gravettians could not have crossed from Anatolia directly into the Balkans, as many scholars maintain. At the time period in question, there was no Hellespont between Anatolia and the Balkans. It was all land. Much easier than traversing the Caucasus mountains.

...
(snip)

The thing I wonder about those maps is with the sea level lower and all that land exposed what type of land was it?

It seems to me it would most likely be marsh / wetlands and marsh / wetlands are good habitats for HGs.

So if the Hellespont was actually a big marsh full of scary HGs crossing it might not be as easy as it looks on the map today and more like the film "Southern Comfort".

Hence why I think farmers more likely sailed around.

 

[Angela]

The thing I wonder about those maps is with the sea level lower and all that land exposed what type of land was it?

It seems to me it would most likely be marsh / wetlands and marsh / wetlands are good habitats for HGs.

So if the Hellespont was actually a big marsh full of scary HGs crossing it might not be as easy as it looks on the map today and more like the film "Southern Comfort".

Hence why I think farmers more likely sailed around.

This map represents the land masses as they were about 22,000 years ago. It was posted to show that if Gravettian hunter gatherers moved into Europe from the Near East, they would have had no problem just walking straight into the Balkans, since at that time there was no water separating the two areas.

By the time of the Neolithic, the land masses resembled the current ones. However, you can see across the Hellespont, and we know that the first farmers went 160 kilometers into the Mediterranean to reach Cyprus, so it's puzzling that there is no evidence of intensive contact between Barcin and the Neolithic cultures in the Balkans according to preliminary reports from the archaeologists doing the excavations there. I know something about the favorable currents that would aid a sea voyage to Cyprus. Was it a different story around the Hellespont? Was there something difficult about crossing it given the state of navigation at the time?

GreyHaired: Also on Angela's map of farming spread it seems to spread directly west (i.e. along the same line of latitude as where it developed) faster than it spread north and south of the source - which is what you'd expect as the farming package would initially only be ideal for that climate. I think this speaks to the age of the Atlantic Megalith culture centered in Portugal. They were around early and for a long time.

As I said, all the new dating doesn't really change the "relative" chronology of Maciamo's map. That's the "general" order in which the colonizations took place. I do think they were looking for a very similar environment. Not to be silly about it, but if we were going to go into space and colonize, what would we look for? I think we'd be looking for planets as close as possible to our own.

The latest research seems to show that it took thousands of years of patient effort to create their "package" of crops and animals, and I think they were looking for fertile land and the kind of climate that would support their crops. I think that helps to explain why they seem to have moved along the coast of Anatolia and out to Cyprus before striking out into the interior of Anatolia. (There were, of course, farmers all along the Fertile Crescent all the way to the Persian Gulf, because that's where the land was, well, "fertile".

This is a map describing a later time, and it's wrong in that it doesn't show Cyprus as part of the earliest Neolithic, and includes Egypt, which was a little later, I think, but it clearly shows that the initial area was sort of bounded by the Taurus and Zagros mountains. They probably stuck to the coastal areas for quite some time before striking out into the interior.

Ed. I checked the Zeder dating chart again. The southern Levant was definitely first, then the eastern Fertile Crescent. After that there's a bit of overlap between the northern Levant, the central Fertile Crescent, and Cyprus. Central Anatolia does seem to come in a bit later.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7326

 

[Greying Wanderer]

This map represents the land masses as they were about 22,000 years ago.

Sure but the sea levels have been rising since then and the earliest part of your farmer spread map goes back c. 11,000 years i.e. pretty much halfway.

My point is *if* the sea levels were lower at the time (if less so than in the LGM map) then what kind of land would it be?

*If* it was marsh / wetlands then it might be full of scary HGs which might explain

they would have had no problem just walking straight into the Balkans, since at that time there was no water separating the two areas.

so it's puzzling that there is no evidence of intensive contact between Barcin and the Neolithic cultures in the Balkans according to preliminary reports from the archaeologists doing the excavations there.

One possibility at least.

 

[Garrick]

Why Latcians are Mescech? If Slavs and Finns are Magog?

If we have intention to decipher this we will enter in very complex field and of course for new thread.

Issue is related with Bible, science and interpretation of Bible, the practice of interpretation is hermeneutics.

First question is, before interpretation, if someone is Christian or no. Who is not Christian he or she can completely be uninterested for Bible, or may be intolerant, or interpret Bible as folklore, etc.

Therefore, although we are all tolerant, it is not irrelevant for further discussion is someone is Christian or no. Because for Christians Bible is literally the Word of God.

If you are Christian you have a lot of good text about interpretation of Bible and hermeneutics. In this regard I especially appreciate American Protestant authors.

Here's an article:

Science and Hermeneutics

http://www.frame-poythress.org/ebooks/science-and-hermeneutics/

About your question someone must have a lot of knowledge to give you adequate response. And some nations can be in two categories. You will come to the best answer for you if you read further about this theme different sources, think about that and interpret.

 

[Angela]

Garrick: We have:

NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
K8 NG21-10
ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
ENF 41.1
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 58.9
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

It is very high WHG. It is fascinating that Vinca can have more WHG than European people today.

Isn't this the calculator which supposedly "removes" the WHG/UHG from EEF to get the "ENF" or early Near Eastern farmer score? If that's the case, then this "ENF" number is misleading. As I suspected would happen, EEF or Stuttgart is virtually the same as ENF. If the methodology for this calculator is as I stated, then some part, probably a good part of the WHG/UHG in this result should be removed and added to the "ENF" in order to get the actual number for the people who arrived from the Near East.

Anyone who doesn't know that is going to be totally misled. The only way to get a handle on this would be to compare the results from this calculator for Stuttgart to the above results for Vinca. Only then can you get a rough estimate of how much WHG might have been picked up in Europe. Or, the Stuttgart sample should be compared to Vinca directly, or the Vinca sample should be compared to Barcin.

As I said on another thread, all these analyses should be redone using a highly quality Near Eastern farmer genome as soon as we get one that is high coverage enough. Nobody should be relying on this calculator in trying to figure out how much admixture took place between the arriving farmers and the hunter-gatherers.

Garrick:If this means that indigenous or old Europeans (I haplogroup) could produce own systems without Near Easterners? We will see newer findings."

Pardon? First of all, how do you know there weren't G2a among them? At the very least, these were admixed people. Second of all, what do you mean by "could produce own systems without Near Easterners"? You think the "I2a" people who lived around the Danube before the arrival of the "Near Easterners" had already independently invented agriculture and animal husbandry? Permanent settlements? Pottery? The people before the arrival of the "Near Easterners" were hunter gatherers.

In terms of culture, populations take or borrow from other groups, sometimes with gene flow, sometimes without, and hopefully add their own improvements. That's how it's always worked.

We've been discussing "biases" on another thread. I think this is taking it a little far. It's also a bit nihilistic in ethnic terms, don't you think, given how much "Near Eastern farmer" ancestry is in Serbians?

 

[Garrick]

As I said on another thread, all these analyses should be redone using a highly quality Near Eastern farmer genome as soon as we get one that is high coverage enough. Nobody should be relying on this calculator in trying to figure out how much admixture took place between the arriving farmers and the hunter-gatherers.

Yes, (and I wrote about it, more time).

Pardon? First of all, how do you know there weren't G2a among them? At the very least, these were admixed people.

Yes, it is possible, and possible not only G2a.

I only highlighted haplogroup I, and with reason. Because there is opinion that hunter gatherers were not able to adapt. I think this opinion is wrong.

Second of all, what do you mean by "could produce own systems without Near Easterners"?

Sorry, I was not well expressed. But you explained in next paragraph.

In terms of culture, populations take or borrow from other groups, sometimes with gene flow, sometimes without, and hopefully add their own improvements. That's how it's always worked.

...

Personally I very appreciate Near East. Most of world civilization originated from Near East. Almost no any important population about which we discuss in the forum that does not originate from the Near East and near. I don't know my Y-DNA and admixtures but I would be happy if my ancestor is from Near East. I will put in my data when I do test.