Pompei, capsula del tempo dell'Impero Romano: analisi paleogenomica dei resti umani rinvenuti nell'antica città

Francesco

Francesco

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PhD thesis about Pompei's population, in Italian.
The population seems pretty heterogeneous, with the bulk of it being aegean-like.
Some individuals look central italian-like and could be of mixed italic and greek ancestry.
There are a lot of outlier however, several from the Levant, while others seem to have a western eurpean background.
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DSpaceUnipr: Pompei, capsula del tempo dell'Impero Romano: analisi paleogenomica dei resti umani rinvenuti nell'antica città

www.repository.unipr.it www.repository.unipr.it
 
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Francesco said:
Some individuals look central italian-like and could be of mixed italic and greek ancestry.
There are a lot of outlier however, several from the Levant, while others seem to have a western eurpean background.
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The central italian-like individuals and this very high number of otuliers are not found in the Rome study and their presence in Pompei might be connected to the circumstance of the eruption: the more italic-like individuals would have normally been cremated in this era, while many outliers were likely travelers or merchants who wouldn't be present in the archeological funerary record under normal circumstances.
 
If these are all samples of people who died in the Vesuvius eruption of 79 CE then there is a good chance that there were many slaves among them. The minority of wealthier people managed to escape by ship.
 
mount123 said:
No comment 🤡: "macro aplogruppo J2, già attestato nelle penisola Iberica in periodo Imperiale (Olalde et al., 2019) e associato alla presenza dei Fenici (Zalloua et al., 2008)"
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yes it is truly unbelievable that in a doctoral thesis published in 2023 a geneticist could write such nonsense, based on a 2008 study that was complete fluff and a big bluff.
 
Maciamo said:
If these are all samples of people who died in the Vesuvius eruption of 79 CE then there is a good chance that there were many slaves among them. The minority of wealthier people managed to escape by ship.
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According to what is written in this thesis, "The present research project involved the sampling of more than 170 human remains from different areas of the Pompeii Archaeological Park and referable to victims of the eruption of the Somma-Vesuvius complex that occurred in 79 CE.". It would need to be checked better but yes it looks like they are the victims of 79 CE Vesuvius eruption.
 
Pax Augusta said:
According to what is written in this thesis, "The present research project involved the sampling of more than 170 human remains from different areas of the Pompeii Archaeological Park and referable to victims of the eruption of the Somma-Vesuvius complex that occurred in 79 CE.". It would need to be checked better but yes it looks like they are the victims of 79 CE Vesuvius eruption.
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Yes, that was also my understanding. That explains why there are so many outliers, ranging from Western Europe to the Levant.
 
mount123 said:
No comment 🤡: "macro aplogruppo J2, già attestato nelle penisola Iberica in periodo Imperiale (Olalde et al., 2019) e associato alla presenza dei Fenici (Zalloua et al., 2008)"
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nice ;)
i see now at page 71 of this thesis
that they also found 1 individual Pom-4/9 which belong to e1b1b1b ( which is for sure under e-z827 the ancestor of e-m81 and e-m123 )
to bad it is not in better quality
that could be defined to more downstream level like: e-m84>pf6751 , e-z841, or if it is under e-L19
to e-pf2431 )
still kudos for this lab for this research (y)
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p.s
personally i visited pompeii last year
very impressive place
 

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Francesco said:
The central italian-like individuals and this very high number of otuliers are not found in the Rome study and their presence in Pompei might be connected to the circumstance of the eruption: the more italic-like individuals would have normally been cremated in this era, while many outliers were likely travelers or merchants who wouldn't be present in the archeological funerary record under normal circumstances.
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You're on the right track. This grouping is totally different than the Rome and Southern Etruscan Imperials - they're drastically more diverse. I found this tidbit of info which seems to explain the phenomenon while doing some research:

A formal analysis was carried out on 206 victims of Pompeii by Kimberly Bowes to attempt to determine the social standing of the victims based off of the pocket change they carried. A very large discrepancy was found with about 70% of the population having little to no money whatsoever with the rest carrying considerable sums. From this she theorized that the majority of the wealthier citizen population had escaped within the 18 hours between the eruption and the incineration of the city, while the majority of those who remained were slaves tasked with guarding their owner's properties and putting out fires. It's worth a read: https://historyfirst.com/pompeii-victims-meagre-savings-may-point-to-slave-status/
 
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Maciamo said:
If these are all samples of people who died in the Vesuvius eruption of 79 CE then there is a good chance that there were many slaves among them. The minority of wealthier people managed to escape by ship.
Click to expand...

We see Central Italian-like samples in Pompeii with no input from Germanic tribes meaning the Germanic input did not play a drastic role in forming genetic ethnogenesis of Central Italians. Those who plot like central Italians probably have a grandparent related with West Asia.
 
ihype02 said:
We see Central Italian-like samples in Pompeii with no input from Germanic tribes meaning the Germanic input did not play a drastic role in forming genetic ethnogenesis of Central Italians. Those who plot like central Italians probably have a grandparent related with West Asia.
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Pompeii was destroyed centuries before the Germanic invasions of Italy. :LOL:
 
ihype02 said:
We see Central Italian-like samples in Pompeii with no input from Germanic tribes meaning the Germanic input did not play a drastic role in forming genetic ethnogenesis of Central Italians. Those who plot like central Italians probably have a grandparent related with West Asia.
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Looking at the admix graphs these pompeians seen to have mycenean like genetic profile ( less than 15% steppe) . So overwhelmingly anatolian farmer with some iran neolithic.
 
ihype02 said:
We see Central Italian-like samples in Pompeii with no input from Germanic tribes meaning the Germanic input did not play a drastic role in forming genetic ethnogenesis of Central Italians. Those who plot like central Italians probably have a grandparent related with West Asia.
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It would be better perhaps to read some history books, since the Longobards came many centuries later. And Central Italian-like does not equate to central Italian.
 
Vallicanus said:
Pompeii was destroyed centuries before the Germanic invasions of Italy. :LOL:
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I know. The point I was trying to make is that considering Central Italian-like profiles existed in Pompeii (as you said, long before the Germanic invasions) which could give some light on the inflated Germanic input given in the Etruscan paper (around 20%) so it means you don't need heavy Germanic admixture to model Central Italians like it was 20% before.

Maybe those Central Italian-like samples in Pompeii were a coincidence. They could be 70%-80% Italic people with some West Asian ancestry.

I understand that my first post was not very clear but it was not really hard to get. The amount of quotes I got and misunderstandings.
Read it again, nowhere did I imply the Germanic invasion took place before Pompeii was destroyed.

Either way it's nice to see this study finally coming out, we've seen rumours about it since 2019. It's a bit disappointing for not having any sample right before the Roman colony (150BC-80BC) was established to see how they looked genetically and if the shift took place after Latin replaced the Oscan in first century AD.
 
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ihype02 said:
I know. The point I was trying to make is that considering Central Italian-like profiles existed in Pompeii (as you said, long before the Germanic invasions) which could give some light on the inflated Germanic input given in the Etruscan paper (around 20%) so it means you don't need heavy Germanic admixture to model Central Italians like it was 20% before.

Maybe those Central Italian-like samples in Pompeii were a coincidence. They could be 70%-80% Italic people with some West Asian ancestry.

I understand that my first post was not very clear but it was not really hard to get. The amount of quotes I got and misunderstandings.
Read it again, nowhere did I imply the Germanic invasion took place before Pompeii was destroyed.

Either way it's nice to see this study finally coming out, we've seen rumours about it since 2019. It's a bit disappointing for not having any sample right before the Roman colony (150BC-80BC) was established to see how they looked genetically and if the shift took place after Latin replaced the Oscan in first century AD.
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More likely they were Greeks.

There were in fact Greeks like Log02 that plot with Central Italians.

Not all Greeks plot with Mycenaeans, as we know that to be abundantly clear by now.

Take the Greeks Theopetra_BA, and Sarakenos_BA for example.

jglbpjb.png
 
Jovialis said:
Also:

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🦾
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Ergo, marriages between Greeks and Romans happened in Italy, and Greece, especially between the upper-class. Julius Caesar and Cleopatra for example.

While inter-marriage between Romans and Near Easterners happen in the Middle East between soldiers and locals there.
 
Maciamo said:
If these are all samples of people who died in the Vesuvius eruption of 79 CE then there is a good chance that there were many slaves among them. The minority of wealthier people managed to escape by ship.
Click to expand...
Or perhaps the majority of Pompeii's population and citizen body managed to escape (By ship or other means), and the diverse slave class which was left behind to guard properties ended up forming a survivorship bias with their remains. This is the idea I'm tending towards. I think Kimberly Bowes was on to something when she started looking at how drastically impoverished most of these individuals were.

One thing is clear - this population does not match other imperial era aDNA norms. I don't anticipate it to be normative to Naples and other parts of southern Italy.
 
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