What do you mean there weren't folk migrations? What about the Roman colonists like the Patulcenses Campani near Esterzili, the Romans who founded Turris Libisonis and Forum Traiani and some Roman colonists also founded a settlement near the already extant city of Caralis.
Population History of Sardinia
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Angela
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I don't understand what you don't get. A few settlements, like the ones by the Carthaginians, as another example, do not a folk migration make. Are you proposing that the Sardinians who aren't from Ogliastra are really Carthaginians? There's some evidence of that ancestry in the south, but not enough to drastically change their make up.
The proof is in the genetics. They are an isolated, drifted population, even the ones who don't come from Ogliastra. Period.
They are not a good example of people who are descendants of the Romans.
Also, as my edited post above says, I don't know where you get the idea that Sardinia was a mecca for settlement. It is not, as I also said, the Po Valley. For most of their history, since the Nuragic period, really, the Sardinians have been mostly extremely poor shepherds.
Now, I think we've gone off-topic for long enough.
Ok sorry for the OT, though I disagree since even after the Nuragic period the plains were extensively exploited by farmers in Carthaginian and Roman times.
Angela
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Sorry, you don't get to post again to have the last word. Ydna changes don't mean proportional AUTOSOMAL changes. You should know that by now.
From Chiang...
"Also, discrepancies between Y chromosome and autosomal SNPs can arise fromaccelerated genetic drift on the Y chromosome, sex-biased migrations, or natural selection."
One of the goals of the Chiang study was to investigate the discrepancy between y Dna and autosomal dna.
As I said repeatedly before this paper ever came out, it is easier to get to Sardinia from the mainland than from Africa, or at least it was for millennia, because of wind and sea currents:
"Also, discrepancies between Y chromosome and autosomal SNPs can arise fromaccelerated genetic drift on the Y chromosome, sex-biased migrations, or natural selection. from neighboring mainland populations, with stronger isolation between Sardinia and NorthAfrica than mainland Europe (Figure 4B)."
You brought up the Chiang et al study, but you don't seem to have read it all that carefully:
"The isolation of Sardinia is especially evident in patterns of rare allele sharing. Using adoubleton sharing statistic, we also find that sharing between Sardinia and other mainlandpopulations is small (normalized sharing ratio typically between 0.03 to 0.25), lower even thanthat between continental populations (e.g. approximately 0.3 to 0.7 between African and EastAsian samples) (Figure S4). Within Sardinia, Arzana again shows evidence of being moreisolated, with low sharing of alleles to the mainland (Figure S4)."
Arzana is from the even more isolated internal "Gennargentu" area from which most of the HGDP samples come.
Also, "This relationship is corroborated by identity by-descent(“IBD”) tract length sharing, where among mainland European populations, FrenchBasque showed the highest median length of shared segments (1.525 cM) with Arzana."
Not Romans, or Tuscans, or Piemontese despite the politics, and no, there was no Basque migration during recorded history. This is ANCIENT NEOLITHIC ERA similarity.
So, as I said, even the less isolated areas show no signal of extensive mixing with anyone else.
PART of Sardinia may have been fertile at one time. FOR MOST OF ITS HISTORY, MOST of Sardinia has been fit only for sheep.
NOW the discussion is closed. If you want to continue it, just pm me and I will move these posts over to the thread on the Chiang paper. In fact, I may do so anyway to clean up this thread.
So is this table relevant or not ? I'm just asking, as i said several times i'm not an expert
PS. Per quanto riguarda il messaggio privato offensivo che ho ricevuto e a cui non posso rispondere..mi spiace, mi confondi con qualcun altro..veramente, dico sul serio
Cosa avrei scritto di così osceno? Basta aprire google earth per rendersi conto delle zone di pianura e di montagna e la tabella di Chiang qui sopra si trova nei supplementi, mica me la sono inventata io...mah
Comunque visto che "imbarazzo gli altri italiani" non posterò mai più, perchè è la seconda volta che subisco accuse infondate e farneticanti..
PS. Per quanto riguarda il messaggio privato offensivo che ho ricevuto e a cui non posso rispondere..mi spiace, mi confondi con qualcun altro..veramente, dico sul serio
Cosa avrei scritto di così osceno? Basta aprire google earth per rendersi conto delle zone di pianura e di montagna e la tabella di Chiang qui sopra si trova nei supplementi, mica me la sono inventata io...mahComunque visto che "imbarazzo gli altri italiani" non posterò mai più, perchè è la seconda volta che subisco accuse infondate e farneticanti..
davef
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I don't quite see how capturing Sardinians and taking them to Rome would impact their gene pool. If they mixed, they would've had to have gone back to sardinia to impact the gene pool, and there would have to be a lot of them. Just a thought
Ygorcs
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I do not think the number of casualties alone is that important if there were no signs of subsequent mass migration into Sardinia. Instead, much like Romans did in Egypt or in Syria, they seemed to have ruled the newly conquered territory, not effectively colonized it.
Even if the number of people Romans killed and enslaved for eventual international traffic was not very inflated (my hunch is that, yes, they were), that immediately caused a decline in the local population, but does not necessarily imply a relevant genetic replacement if the mainlanders remained a small political, military and bureaucratic elite, with most of the imperial strength exerted on Sardinians at distance.
If they had killed 80,000 men, but, for instance, 240,000 men (including kids) still survived - almost genocidal proportions (1/3), which is quite unlikely -, and later some 4,000 Italian men (not an insignificant number for an island like Sardinia, so this is a moderate estimate) established in Sardinia for good (not just serving a few years at the military or governmental structure there), the ultimate genetic impact of that horrid slaughter would've still been minimal, less than 1.7%.
Angela
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This table proves my points beautifully.
LESS THAN 10% steppe ancestry even in the coastal areas which would have gotten inflow from "foreign" migrations. Lower than virtually any European population.
As for the WHG percentages, we've know for years that the Sardinians harbored some. As the years passed, farmer populations absorbed some WHG.
As another poster has pointed out, admixture would be found because of gene flow INTO the island, not Sardinians moving OFF the island, voluntarily or not.
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Is this statement by you some kind of attempt at t-rolling?
Angela
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You still don't understand. I never said that there was NO impact from the mainland, Carthaginians, etc. I said it was MINIMAL, even in the areas most open to foreign intrusion. That's WHY all Sardinians are an isolated, drifted, population that comes closest to "Old Europe", before the steppe invasions. That's the basic conclusion of Chiang et al.
Ed. @Pygmalion,
As I've been trying to explain, a few largely male settlements are not going to have a huge impact on the overall genome. It's true though that some Yoruba like alleles show up in southern areas impacted by the Carthaginians, which makes sense now that we know that there was SSA in some North Africans even before the Arab slave trade of the early Middle Ages.
No, what gave you this impression?
E io quando avrei scritto che questo infllusso genico post neolitico sui Sardi fu di grandi proporzioni ?? MAI! mai scritto ne pensato so benissimo che sono i più vicini agli agricoltori neolitici e non vedo nessun problema...e con questo chiudo, frequentavo solo questo forum in ogni caso, ti sei fatta strane idee..
Utilizzando Tapatalk
Angela
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Then we're in agreement.
i read about this in a discussion about caesars de bello gallico. he had to pay a certain percentage of everything he earned during the war back to the roman state. and slaves were no exception.
sadly i coudln't find this anymore. but instead i found this. here the author also thinks that slavery numbers were exagerated however he thinks that they still are not representing the whole extent of slavery.
https://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf
"
We must bear in mind that while particular reports may well be exaggerated,
they nevertheless cumulatively understate the actual scale of slave-
making: tallies are provided in a haphazard fashion,
focusing on the most notable events but
neglecting minor operations or even entire theaters"
and slavery was pretty much one of the major reasons for romes conquests.
"Warfare and the enslavement of captives among third parties sustained most of the major ‘slave societies’ in world history – th
e Greek Aegean in antiquity, Islamic societies in
the Middle East, and the colonial plantations systems of the Americas and South Africa in the
modern period.
Nevertheless, from a world historical perspective, Roman slave society stands out for the
crucial importance of the
direct
link between Roman campaigning and slaving: to a much greater
extent than other slave-rich systems, Roman elit
es relied on their own military forces to procure a
captive labor force."
so i wouldn't underestimate these numbers. but yes it's questionable how this should have affected the gene pool of conquered regions.
Well, of course I wasn't arguing against the data, I agree with you. Sardinians are the closest population to Early European farmers, I was pointing out that from reading about the history of Sardinia without being aware of the current archaeogenetic studies one might get a completely different idea about the DNA of modern Sardinians. But I don't get what you meant by saying that since the Nuragic period Sardinians were mostly extremely poor shepherds. That's not what happened, agriculture improved noticeably during the the Nuragic period, with the introduction of viticulture, of two field crop rotation, of new exotic fruits like melons and mulberries, the cultivation of oats, wheat and barley, and of several legumes, the consumption of beer, wine and even distilled beverages, the finds of both wine and oil presses, the bread ovens, the votive statuettes being portrayed in many instances during the act of offering bread to the Gods; all these things suggest that agriculture played a big part in the Nuragic economy. The fact that during during the early iron age (9-8th century bc) the Nuragic Sardinians were the only population among those living West of Greece to export their food towards other regions (Iberia, North Africa, Etruria) in the form of big amphorae and drinking vessels containing wine, oil and other edible goods, doesn't go well with the idea that the they were mostly extremely poor shepherds, this means they at least by that period they had a food surplus. Even ignoring all of these finds, the fact alone that they were able to create several thousand stone monuments including a 12 meter high dome, a 27 meters high tower, temples built with elegant ashlar masonry, infrastructure such as roads, hydraulic engineering (drainage systems, a fountain, ritual pools, an aqueduct, cisterns, 30 meter deep wells), several hundred bronze statuettes and a good deal of life size stone statues, all this implies that the Nuragics couldn't have lived on extremely poor shepherds alone, agriculture was important to them, of course their agriculture wasn't even remotely close to that of the contemporary Near Eastern urban societies and not even to that of those of Greece, but still it was able to support an advanced society so extremely poor shepherds seems like an understatement to me.
Angela
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Do you get that you're agreeing with me not only about what ancient dna shows but about the cultural comment?
I said AFTER the Nuragic period, did I not?
Perhaps you're of Sardinian ancestry and took my comment as some sort of insult? I assure you it was not. The south was mired in poverty too, partly because foreign invaders usually just saw these lands as milk cows and invested absolutely nothing in them, partly as a result that included in that was a total disregard for stewarding the land, and the ecological damage was extreme.
The common people in my own ancestral areas were poverty stricken since the fall of Rome. Recent archaeological work undertaken by Bryan Ward-Perkins, among others, shows that the standard of living around Luni, i.e. eastern Liguria/Toscana, didn't once again approach what it was under Rome until the very end of the 19th century. In my father's area it took even longer. They were at the top of the totem pole there, but most people were extremely poor until well into the 20th century.
It's an unfortunate reality which I very much regret.
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Fall_of_Rome.html?id=dPig9bm268sC
Sorry I misinterpreted your comment, I just wanted to clarify because many people aren't familiar with Sardinian prehistory and one might get the wrong idea. Of course Sardinia was very poor compared to the rest of Europe during the last two thousand years, and already by the time of the Roman empire it wasn't certainly a wealthy province as it was mostly rural and malaria stricken.
Angela
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We've been discussing the Roman input into Sardinia. There may have been some, but I would bet none on the plateau from which the Sardinian academic pop gen samples come.
Check out this map of the Roman administrative divisions before the incorporation of Liguria. That Sardinian region was left strictly alone.
Check out this map of the Roman administrative divisions before the incorporation of Liguria. That Sardinian region was left strictly alone.
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