Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

[Angela]

how exactly did the greeks influence the tyrsennians, as they called them ?



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Perhaps you're new at this, so...

Let's look at generalities...

"Western Asia and the Near East was the first region to enter the Bronze Age, which began with the rise of the Mesopotamian civilization of Sumer in the mid 4th millennium BC. Cultures in the ancient Near East (often called one of "the cradles of civilization") practiced intensive year-round agriculture, developed a writing system, invented the potter's wheel, created a centralized government, written law codes, city and nation states and empires, embarked on advanced architectural projects, introduced social stratification, economic and civil administration, slavery, and practiced organized warfare, medicine and religion. Societies in the region laid the foundations for astronomy, mathematics and astrology."

All of this was transmitted to the Etruscans either through the Greeks or more directly through trade with the Phoenicians. The alphabet, which they then passed on to the Latin speaking Romans, and thence to the rest of Europe, is a good example.

You can find some information in this google book, although as always it's irritating because just as you get to the "good" parts, there are pages missing. You can see, though, the change in architecture, for example, not only for megastructures, but in house design.
https://books.google.com/books?id=H...nd Eastern influence on the Etruscans&f=false

They went a long way very quickly from mud and wattle circular huts to this:

I'd buy it tomorrow.

Then, of course, particularly in pottery and the arts,there's what is called the "Orientalizing period". You can look it up on Wiki.

The fact that there is such a quick change from a rather primitive culture to a very sophisticated one is why some people found it hard to credit that this was an autochthonous Italian culture. If the leaks are correct that is precisely the case, however, which makes their achievements even more remarkable.

It has to also be said that although they did a lot of borrowing, unlike some cultures they did a lot of innovation as well, making those "borrowings" very much their own. One example from the social sphere involves their borrowing the "symposia" form of feasting, eating, in company while reclining.

Whereas in the east it was limited to men, in Etruscan society women were part of the social gatherings, leading to the Greek calumny about them that their women were all prostitutes.

 

[Dibran]

…………..)

Kind of off topic. I had to change my password 4 times today. Additionally, I made sure they would be entered correctly. Each time locking me out automatically for incorrect entry which is beyond false. This is now my 4th password change in a day.

 

[Iulius]

Kind of off topic. I had to change my password 4 times today. Additionally, I made sure they would be entered correctly. Each time locking me out automatically for incorrect entry which is beyond false. This is now my 4th password change in a day.

It happens to me as well. I get locked out, but later the password will work.

 

[I()]

Kind of off topic. I had to change my password 4 times today. Additionally, I made sure they would be entered correctly. Each time locking me out automatically for incorrect entry which is beyond false. This is now my 4th password change in a day.

I have to change at random intervals of 1 minute - 1 hour .... the forum account. This has been happening continuously for about a month now ... Why? God knows ... and his angels.:distrust:

 

[lynxbythetv]

Perhaps you're new at this, so...

Let's look at generalities...

"Western Asia and the Near East was the first region to enter the Bronze Age, which began with the rise of the Mesopotamian civilization of Sumer in the mid 4th millennium BC. Cultures in the ancient Near East (often called one of "the cradles of civilization") practiced intensive year-round agriculture, developed a writing system, invented the potter's wheel, created a centralized government, written law codes, city and nation states and empires, embarked on advanced architectural projects, introduced social stratification, economic and civil administration, slavery, and practiced organized warfare, medicine and religion. Societies in the region laid the foundations for astronomy, mathematics and astrology."

All of this was transmitted to the Etruscans either through the Greeks or more directly through trade with the Phoenicians. The alphabet, which they then passed on to the Latin speaking Romans, and thence to the rest of Europe, is a good example.

You can find some information in this google book, although as always it's irritating because just as you get to the "good" parts, there are pages missing. You can see, though, the change in architecture, for example, not only for megastructures, but in house design.
https://books.google.com/books?id=H...nd Eastern influence on the Etruscans&f=false

They went a long way very quickly from mud and wattle circular huts to this:

I'd buy it tomorrow.

Then, of course, particularly in pottery and the arts,there's what is called the "Orientalizing period". You can look it up on Wiki.

The fact that there is such a quick change from a rather primitive culture to a very sophisticated one is why some people found it hard to credit that this was an autochthonous Italian culture. If the leaks are correct that is precisely the case, however, which makes their achievements even more remarkable.

It has to also be said that although they did a lot of borrowing, unlike some cultures they did a lot of innovation as well, making those "borrowings" very much their own. One example from the social sphere involves their borrowing the "symposia" form of feasting, eating, in company while reclining.

Whereas in the east it was limited to men, in Etruscan society women were part of the social gatherings, leading to the Greek calumny about them that their women were all prostitutes.

thankyou, quality info.

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[Iulius]

By the Late Republic, if the Italics from the steppe did mix with the Aegean-like populations in Southern Italy; figures C and F sort of look like Italia during that time.

Moreover, my K36 heat map sort of looks like a silhouette of the Roman empire.

Map of Caesarian and Augustan Roman colonies during the Imperial era:

https://www.britannica.com/place/Roman-Empire

 

[Dibran]

I have to change at random intervals of 1 minute - 1 hour .... the forum account. This has been happening continuously for about a month now ... Why? God knows ... and his angels.:distrust:

It happens to me as well. I get locked out, but later the password will work.

Yup. 2 times again today. Quite annoying lol.

 

[Joey37]

Your heat map look like Roman Empire, wonder what mine looks like...uhh, Empire of the Franks?

 

[Angela]

Map of Caesarian and Augustan Roman colonies around the beginning of the Imperial era:

https://www.britannica.com/place/Roman-Empire

Nice find, Jovialis.

I'd forgotten about all those colonies along the Dalmatian coast and is it part of Albania as well?

I have quite a few friends from that part of Croatia (the islands too). Between the two world wars they were part of "us" again. They all speak some Italian, and wholeheartedly adopted the cuisine. Actually, parts of it they'd always had, I think. A lot of Northern Italian restaurants in New York are actually owned by Croatians. They go by their Italian first names to seem more "authentic".

Fine by me. Two of my uncles (and one aunt) had restaurants, highly successful ones too, and none of their children wanted to continue them. The restaurant "life" is a really difficult one. If the Croatians are willing to do it, more power to them.

 

[Iulius]

Nice find, Jovialis.

I'd forgotten about all those colonies along the Dalmatian coast and is it part of Albania as well?

I have quite a few friends from that part of Croatia (the islands too). Between the two world wars they were part of "us" again. They all speak some Italian, and wholeheartedly adopted the cuisine. Actually, parts of it they'd always had, I think. A lot of Northern Italian restaurants in New York are actually owned by Croatians. They go by their Italian first names to seem more "authentic".

Fine by me. Two of my uncles (and one aunt) had restaurants, highly successful ones too, and none of their children wanted to continue them. The restaurant "life" is a really difficult one. If the Croatians are willing to do it, more power to them.

Indeed it is, my friend's wife's family are Albanians, and her cousins can speak Italian fluently. Moreover, they have lived in Italy prior to coming to the USA. I also knew a Croatian girl, from one of the Islands near Venice, she was also fluent in Italian.

 

[Duarte]

Map of Caesarian and Augustan Roman colonies during the Imperial era:

https://www.britannica.com/place/Roman-Empire

Nice discovery Jovialis

I'm not Italian, but an Iberian descendant. In many autosomal calculators I have a great overlapping with Northern Italia, for example, Eurogenes K36 and LM Genetics, among others:

LM Genetics:

Eurogenes - nMonte3 Oracle Results - YourPortalDNA

Eurogenes K36
Europe : 99%
West Asia: 0.8 %
Sub-Saharan Africa: 0.2%
TOTAL: 100%:

Interesting that my map from ancient times of MyTrueAncestry - MTA reminds much this map of Roman Empire that shows roman the colonies on the begining of Imperial era, except, in my specific case, the Greece, Anatolia and Sicily, and It can explain, I think, the matches that appears for Italins and Iberians in MTA to samples of ancient Illyrians:

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[Iulius]

 

[Ailchu]

^what are the red lines showing?

 

[Iulius]

^what are the red lines showing?

It just outlines the continuum between SBA, ABA, AN, and along with the resurgence of WHG, to form the modern Italian populations, as well as the others within it.

Which can be seen in the modeling:

 

[Hawk]

I am very curious to know the Y-DNA of more Etruscan samples. Was that J2b2-L283 an outlier or it was a common Y-DNA among them.

 

[Ailchu]

It just outlines the continuum between SBA, ABA, AN, and along with the resurgence of WHG, to form the modern Italian populations, as well as the others within it.

Which can be seen in the modeling:

i see. it's not very accurate though if we just use those 4 as direct sources for modern europeans.

 

[ratchet_fan]

i see. it's not very accurate though if we just use those 4 as direct sources for modern europeans.

Wouldn't there be some Uralic Sammi type stuff there too?

 

[ratchet_fan]

It just outlines the continuum between SBA, ABA, AN, and along with the resurgence of WHG, to form the modern Italian populations, as well as the others within it.

Which can be seen in the modeling:

I'm confused by this graph. Which color is WHG? And why do North Africa and East Africa look so similar?

 

[Iulius]

i see. it's not very accurate though if we just use those 4 as direct sources for modern europeans.

Correct, it wasn't distributed directly from those sources. For example some ABA-like admixture could have come via greek settlement. Some Steppe could have come via central europe, etc.

 

[Iulius]

I'm confused by this graph. Which color is WHG? And why do North Africa and East Africa look so similar?

That's from a lack of appropriate sample for those populations, no SSA. North African is the closest to them