Religion Prosecuting Christianity

[strongvoicesforward]

Some people get offended when their particular religion is called a ?gfairy story,?h ?g a fantasy,?h or ?gsuperstition.?h However, that is just what an Italian man has accused Christianity of: being -- a ?gfable,?h and has decided to file a criminal complaint against Rev. Enrico Righi for reasserting the claim that Jesus existed -- a possible deception of fraud which has been going on for 2000 years.

As anyone who has been following the religion threads here know, I have on many occassions proffered the belief that Christianity is a fraud and its God is a Fairy God King. And, those who have followed the thread knows that some Christians did not take kindly to those direct salvos without adding things like ?gIMO?h tags or prefaces with ?gI think.?h

However, my thoughts on the issue are now being played out in Itallian Court where the Rev. Righi is in criminal court under two existing Itallian Laws which are: ?gabuse of popular belief?h which is a law against fraud, and ?gimpersonation,?h which someone benefits by asserting false names or claims to a person. The Catholic church has benefitted financially for years by asserting Jesus, probably a mythical legend, to an actual unproven character of existance with a real history and actions (most unlikely).

Luigi Cascioli, the acuser bringing the case against Righi, has no illusions about winning the case in predominantly Roman Catholic society and court, but sees that as a necessary step in order to get it into the European Union Court system where it will get a more fair hearing under the European Court of Human Rights, where his charge will be one of ?greligious racism.?h
The brother of the accused fraudster has commented that Righi was ?gserene but bitter.?h

Funny, it is always the Christians who accuse the atheists of being bitter. Righi should cheer up, for most probably, he isn`t footing the legal bill himself -- the parishoners who fork over the money to the church probably are.

I am just wondering though, if the Church will try to settle the embarrassing truth of Jesus out of court (cash payment) like it has with their numerous pedophile priest sex scandals -- both being monstrocities visited upon the public for centuries.

*If you would like to read the original AP story on Yahoo (which I paraphrased and added to -- [I like my version better]), then please look here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060127/ap_on_re_eu/did_jesus_exist

**Afterthought: I guess the Itallian Courts didn?ft find it too ?ginsulting, intolerant, or biggoted?h to let a criminal complaint go forward with words like ?gfraud?h and ?gfable?h in it. I am glad that protestations against those words on this forum as they were in reference to Christianity were not looked upon as being ?gunwarranted.?h There seems to be the minds of logic and reason here protecting freedom of speech where it is rightly warranted.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Cascioli's reasoning seems no less dubious than the historicity of Christ:

http://www.luigicascioli.it/dueprove_eng.php

 

[Maciamo]

I have split the fight between sabro and SVF here, and reopns the thread because the topic is worth discussing. However, I will ask sabro to refrain from posting in this thread to avoid new confrontations with the thtread starter. I also suggest to SVF and sabro to ignore each others (i.e. add each others to your Ignore List).

 

[ArmandV]

People get offended when it comes to religion because it is a deeply personal thing to them. I don't generally discuss religion because of it.

 

[mapusyaw]

i agree with ArmandV. come to think of it, what religion did not sprang from "faith" and "belief"? religion or faith is a matter of personal experience.

i am an eclectic and a pagan and as someone has said, "We choose to keep an open mind. We find that it is emotionally and spiritually more sound to believe in something rather than to believe in nothing at all."


"As anyone who has been following the religion threads here know, I have on many occassions proffered the belief that Christianity is a fraud and its God is a Fairy God King."

can you please elaborate on this, SVF? i am interested in your thoughts.

 

[Sensuikan San]

i agree with ArmandV. come to think of it, what religion did not sprang from "faith" and "belief"? religion or faith is a matter of personal experience.
i am an eclectic and a pagan and as someone has said, "We choose to keep an open mind. We find that it is emotionally and spiritually more sound to believe in something rather than to believe in nothing at all."
"As anyone who has been following the religion threads here know, I have on many occassions proffered the belief that Christianity is a fraud and its God is a Fairy God King."
can you please elaborate on this, SVF? i am interested in your thoughts.

Don't get him started again!

I think SVF, has actually already prompted you (us) to review the other religious threads. Just pop over to his profile and read "All threads started by Stongvoicesforward" or "All posts by Strongvoicesforward".

It should keep you busy for a week or two.

Now ... where was I ... ?

Oh yeah.

As much as I tend to agree with Signor Righi, I really can't understand why he would want to spend so much effort, time, trouble and money to bring his case forward.

It is also slightly unclear to me from the post as to wether the case is being brought about based on wether or not "Jesus" (?) or whatever his real name was, really existed; or if it was based on the supposition that he was truly a "son of God".

The first - that "Jesus" existed - should be a reasonably cut and dried affair. Discounting the Bible, which, I submit, would be an unreliable source, then Roman or other contemporary records may survive, proving that the man existed (I suspect strongly that he did) - in which case the church would win. If records cannot be found - then the case is unproven, and should be treated by the court as being so.

The second - that "Jesus" is the son of a God .... would be impossible to prove ... and(in Italy, most certainly!) would undoubtedly be treated by the court as being so.

My forecast is that the whole thing will be thrown out of court.

?W????

 

[No-name]

Thank you for that concise bit of clarity, Sensuikan san.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

My forecast is that the whole thing will be thrown out of court.
?W????

John, it was thrown out the first time (you are a late prphet). But, it was appealed and the decision to throw it out was reversed. This time it is set to go to trial. I just saw another half page write up on it in the Chicago Tribune (or was it the L.A. Times ???).

He really has no interest in doing this in Italy. But, in order to get it into an EU court he must first go through a local country court. I don`t think it has to go to the equivelant of Italy`s Supreme Court (though I could be wrong on that) before heading to an EU court. The point is, the EU court would more than likely be a more fair hearing with more jugdes coming from less religious backgrounds and cultures than Italy.

In addition, I don`t even think his case is about winning; it is about getting a fair audience in court which will bring the topic up for individual discussion and debate while people follow it. In this way, it will free up discussion and make more people willing to bring it up as a topic during their conversations rather than being to polite to discuss religion.

These kinds of religious court cases, once they start, encourage more to follow. It`s just the beginning. Within years to come, more and more Freethinkers will begin launching similar cases. Just takes time to get the momentum going. The church is crumbling one stone at a time -- along with it, so is the Bible being pushed closer and closer to the library section of fiction and myth.

 

[Sensuikan San]

John, it was thrown out the first time (you are a late prphet). But, it was appealed and the decision to throw it out was reversed.

Well, you might have told us! I thought I was being quite bright there! (I would probably make a good Italian lawyer!)

In addition, I don`t even think his case is about winning; it is about getting a fair audience in court which will bring the topic up for individual discussion and debate while people follow it. In this way, it will free up discussion and make more people willing to bring it up as a topic during their conversations rather than being to polite to discuss religion.

Pray, what is the difference? As an atheist, I do hope that the average theist will be polite with me when discussing theology. Why should I not reciprocate?

These kinds of religious court cases, once they start, encourage more to follow. It`s just the beginning. Within years to come, more and more Freethinkers will begin launching similar cases. Just takes time to get the momentum going. The church is crumbling one stone at a time -- along with it, so is the Bible being pushed closer and closer to the library section of fiction and myth.

The established church has been, or appears to have been crumbling for the last 1200 years. Why do you seek to finally polish it off so finally, right now? Just how does it affect or offend you so severely on a day to day basis?
Personally, I find it doesn't even come into my life.
If people need it, that's not my affair, not my problem.
Why is it, or does it seem to be yours?
Just why?
?W????

 

[Kinsao]

The established church has been, or appears to have been crumbling for the last 1200 years.

Humanity has had thousands of years to reason itself out of a belief in the existence of any god or gods whatsoever, and has not yet done so........

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Cascioli's suggestion that Jesus did not exist is based on the writings of Celsus. I don't see how Celsus' writings are any more reliable than the gospels - it seems to me that Celsus was just an anti-Christian pagan propagandist.

I expect that the money that Cascioli makes from increased sales of his book The Fable of Christ will more than pay for this court case.

 

[No-name]

And yet today there are still 1.6 billion Christians or more and growing. What might be true in Europe, certainly isn't true in the US or in South Korea. And for good or bad, the religious foray into political control is far from ending. Although the political influences in the west are declining, monotheistic religions like Christianity and Islam are driving political forces in the third world.

 

[bossel]

Cascioli's suggestion that Jesus did not exist is based on the writings of Celsus. I don't see how Celsus' writings are any more reliable than the gospels - it seems to me that Celsus was just an anti-Christian pagan propagandist.

What's more, the whole thing seems to be based on a personal feud between Cascioli & Righi. Reminds of Don Camillo & Peppone.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

The established church has been, or appears to have been crumbling for the last 1200 years. Why do you seek to finally polish it off so finally, right now?

I think you are giving me too much credit, John. I don`t think I alone could ever "polish it off," -- let alone "right now." But, I am quite happy to give it a nudge while it is teetering.

Just how does it affect or offend you so severely on a day to day basis?
Personally, I find it doesn't even come into my life.
If people need it, that's not my affair, not my problem.
Why is it, or does it seem to be yours?
Just why?
?W????

John, I have explained my reasons several times already. In fact, I think once I even directly addressed my reasons to you. Need I repeat myself?