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Proto-Indo-Europeans were the Highlanders, who lived near the sea.

bicicleur said:
Andronovo had all the right elements : copper & bronze metallurgy, cattle herding, horses and chariots

Pre-BMAC people were farmes from Jétun civilization, 8000 years old.
They found precious stones and gold in the mountains and started trading with the Elamites
BMAC cities and citadels were build by Elamite people who toke the precious stones and gold resources.
BMAC cities and citadels were burned and destroyed, it looks like BMAC was invaded and replaced by Andronovo people
then from there Andronovo people spread further : south, they attacked Elam, west they founded Mitani (attested indo-european language) and also corss the Hindu Kush and Khyber pas into India
Click to expand...
Bicicluer everything is in your favour. You have evidence of Chariot's/horses/copper and all matter of weapons for this unique invasion. So my question; can you provide any archeological proof for example from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sáras-vat-ī region ? One chariot? one weapon, a pile of bones showing genocide, or an interruption in cultural/religious continuity with new customs and god's?
 
Goga said:
Proof? Proof? What we know is that Aryans invaded India from BMAC (Oxus civilization) located in South Central Asia. It’s a proven fact that the homeland of the Aryans that invaded India was Arayana or Airyana Vaeja. Airyana Vaeja was a very mountainous region. After testing the DNA we ofund out that there’s lots of West Asian auDNA and Y-DNA in that area. There’s lots of West Asia Y-DNA, like J2a and R1a-Z93. With other words folks that lived in Aryana were of West Asian origin. Culturally speaking, Sintashta (Andronovo) culture was very different form BMAC (Oxus civilization). While BMAC (Oxus civilization) was very close to the Leyla-Tepe (civilization around Zagros and Western Iranian Plateau).
Click to expand...

yes

but tell me where the link is that the area of eastern persia is known by ancient scholars as Ariana which can equal Arayan

Ariana is also the same in generic terms Gedrosian and Balochi

or
are you saying the bactrians and sogtrians ( some of therir ancestors formed into tariks) did the invading from BMAC .........bactrians are from Balkh


you do know there was no northern route between the caspian sea and aral sea as the aral sea was 250 metres higher ( than what it is today ) and was the continually being fed by melting snow above it
 
Goga said:
semitic_people.jpg

Origin of the Semtic (Afro-Asiatic) race.

And here map of Kurdistan. As you can see Leyla-Tepe is NOT located in Kurdistan and the Akkadians lived more to the south of Kurdistan and not in the mountains at all. Afro-Asiatic (semitic) people are the desert people and not the mountain people. They belong in the deserts and not in the mountains, they will not survive in the mountains... :

Kurdistan_Map1.jpg



No you are wrong. Avestan and Sankrit were ergative constructed languages. Like still many Indic languages in India have an ergative cosntruction. Persian lost it's ergative contruction over time. Old Persian had an ergativity too. That why, I'm telling you that Kurdish is still one ofthe most purest 'Aryan' languages to date and VERY close to Avestan

2000 years old Kurdish Zoroastrian book. It was written in a Kurdish language dialect the Hawrami. Kurdish dialect of Hewarim is a direct modern successor of Avestan. FACT!


A_miniature_book_dated_2_000_years_old_found_in.jpg

A_miniature_book_dated_2_000_years_old_found_in.jpg
Click to expand...



Hope you are not saying the Kurds have a semetic language ..............they do not have
 
bicicleur said:
oldest attestation of Semitic is 5000 years old
IMO they were newcomers, ariving in the Levant from Africa some 5600 years ago
Click to expand...

If they supposedly were newcomers from Africa, explain to me, why exactly did Proto-Semitic have a common word for 'bear' (Akkadian "dabû", Arabic "dubb", Aramaic "debā", Hebrew "dov") and 'snow' (Akkadian "šalgu", Arabic "thaldʒ", Aramaic "talgā", Hebrew "sheleg")?

there is no proof of Semitic older than 5000 years
Click to expand...

There is no proof of any language before ca. 5000 years ago because before that, humanity was illiterate.
 
Silesian said:
Bicicluer everything is in your favour. You have evidence of Chariot's/horses/copper and all matter of weapons for this unique invasion. So my question; can you provide any archeological proof for example from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sáras-vat-ī region ? One chariot? one weapon, a pile of bones showing genocide, or an interruption in cultural/religious continuity with new customs and god's?
Click to expand...

ok, I admit this is a popular theory, and there is no direct proof
probably things are oversimplified too

that there is no proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, as the invasion of the Akkadians in Mesopotamia happened without archeological trace of an invasion
but indeed there is seroius doubt

on the other hand :
the origin of BMAC is not a simple continuation of the neolithic Jeitun, there are at least influences from Elam and appearantly also from Harrapan India
there were strong fortifications, cities had to be defended against someone
2000 BC steppe people with cattle arrived
1800 BC the walled BMAC centres decreased sharply in size

as for Andronovo : they were R1a people as proved by aDNA
Sintashta is regarded as its predecessor
they had bronze working and cattle
chariot and horses : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krivoye_Lake
can you point me another origin for chariots?

the theory is not disproven yet

what is known about the origins of the Vedic culture?
can you help me?
there seem to be more theories and myths than facts
 
Goga said:
semitic_people.jpg

Origin of the Semtic (Afro-Asiatic) race.
Click to expand...
That map is so horribly wrong it's almost comical. Since when exactly is Aramaic more closely related with Akkadian than with Hebrew? :lmao:

And here map of Kurdistan. As you can see Leyla-Tepe is NOT located in Kurdistan and the Akkadians lived more to the south of Kurdistan and not in the mountains at all. Afro-Asiatic (semitic) people are the desert people and not the mountain people. They belong in the deserts and not in the mountains, they will not survive in the mountains... :
Click to expand...

The idea that the Semitic languages have their origin in the Arabian desert, or in Africa, is, in a nutshell, ridiculous. The best explanation for this is the interrelationship of the various Semitic branches with one another: the first Semitic branch to diverge probably was East Semitic (Akkadian and Eblaitic), while South Semitic and Central Semitic diverged later from another. Amongst the Central Semitic languages, you have Arabic (which diverged from the others first), and Northwest Semitic (including Aramaic, the Cana'anite languages - that is Hebrew and Phoenician - and Ugaritic). The only branch of South Semitic that is actually found in Africa is Ethiosemitic (i.e. Amharic, Ge'ez), which is most closely related with Old South Arabian. In my opinion, the Proto-South Semitic homeland was indeed located in southern Arabia (Yemen), but the Proto-Semitic homeland as a whole wasn't.

In my opinion, western Syria and Lebanon (perhaps Palestine) are the most likely homeland of the Semitic peoples, not the Arabian desert, and certainly not Ethiopia.

(I'll talk more about the iranic languages later)
 
Taranis said:
If they supposedly were newcomers from Africa, explain to me, why exactly did Proto-Semitic have a common word for 'bear' (Akkadian "dabû", Arabic "dubb", Aramaic "debā", Hebrew "dov") and 'snow' (Akkadian "šalgu", Arabic "thaldʒ", Aramaic "talgā", Hebrew "sheleg")?

There is no proof of any language before ca. 5000 years ago because before that, humanity was illiterate.
Click to expand...

how old is Proto-Semitic ?
I think not much older than 5600 years
both Semites and Arabs were herding people, they travelled around a lot
they may have seen snow and bears in Southern Lebanon

semeticlanguages_zps78213aa9.jpg


this fits, Arabs started agriculture in western Yemen and consequently grew and traded mirre and frankinsense in Ethiopia
central and eastern semitic are the E-M34 Semites
 
Taranis said:
(I'll talk more about the iranic languages later)
Click to expand...
Tiranis can you provide proof of invasion/immigration from Pontic-Steppe-Andronovo using ancient manuscript like Vedic Sanskrit[Rigvedic Sanskrit] or Avestan?
Can you show some continuity using copper beads/nails from same/similar foundry in Andronovo region and other parts of India? How about chariot's found ?Can you show some art from Semitic/Akadian showing Bear or Snow?
iraniansgreeksin00rostuoft_0053.jpg
 
Silesian said:
One question I have that I have not seen much research, numerically R1a in West/Central/South Asia dwarf European numbers? Have you done any research into this?
Click to expand...
No, I'm sorry to disappoint you.
 
bicicleur said:
Andronovo had all the right elements : copper & bronze metallurgy, cattle herding, horses and chariots

Pre-BMAC people were farmes from Jétun civilization, 8000 years old.
They found precious stones and gold in the mountains and started trading with the Elamites
BMAC cities and citadels were build by Elamite people who toke the precious stones and gold resources.
BMAC cities and citadels were burned and destroyed, it looks like BMAC was invaded and replaced by Andronovo people
then from there Andronovo people spread further : south, they attacked Elam, west they founded Mitani (attested indo-european language) and also corss the Hindu Kush and Khyber pas into India
Click to expand...
Don’t think so. Why? Because the culture of BMAC folks and those who invaded India was thesame. And the culture of BMAC folks was very close to West Asia. Also, there isno European Y-DNA in that area. Only West Asian J2a and R1a-Z93 mixed with somelocal (native to Central Asia) Y-DNA haplogroups.

All kind of metallurgy was at the first placepractised in West Asia, later on it moved to other parts. Oxus civilization (BMAC) was far more advanced and by far more superior to Sintashta (Andronovo) culture, especially as regards to metallurgy.
 
Taranis said:


That map is so horribly wrong it's almost comical. Since when exactly is Aramaic more closely related with Akkadian than with Hebrew?
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? This map doesn't say that Aramaic is closer to Akkadian than to Hebrew. All what it is saying is that Aramaic people were evolved from the Akkadians and lived North of them. But, what I'm trying to say is that the Semitic folks were the immigrant, the colonists and the invaders in Northern Mesopotamia. And They never lived in the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains!
 
Sile said:
yes

but tell me where the link is that the area of eastern persia is known by ancient scholars as Ariana which can equal Arayan

Ariana is also the same in generic terms Gedrosian and Balochi

or
are you saying the bactrians and sogtrians ( some of therir ancestors formed into tariks) did the invading from BMAC .........bactrians are from Balkh


you do know there was no northern route between the caspian sea and aral sea as the aral sea was 250 metres higher ( than what it is today ) and was the continually being fed by melting snow above it
Click to expand...
proto-East Iranian were the invading force from BMAC into India. Those who stayed behind became known as Sogdians, Bactrians, Saka (Scythians) etc. Ariana was located above Gedrosia and under Bactria, so between Gedrosia and Bactria.
GedrosiaAriaLucasLow.jpg


DionysiusMap405BC.jpg


PtolemyCentralAsia.jpg


http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm


and here proposed location of Airyana Vaeja

SixteenAsuraLands.png


http://takshasila.wikidot.com/article:sixteen-lands-of-ahuras
 
Goga said:
Don’t think so. Why? Because the culture of BMAC folks and those who invaded India was thesame. And the culture of BMAC folks was very close to West Asia. Also, there isno European Y-DNA in that area. Only West Asian J2a and R1a-Z93 mixed with somelocal (native to Central Asia) Y-DNA haplogroups.

All kind of metallurgy was at the first placepractised in West Asia, later on it moved to other parts. Oxus civilization (BMAC) was far more advanced and by far more superior to Sintashta (Andronovo) culture, especially as regards to metallurgy.
Click to expand...

Sintashta lived in fortified settlements, there was warfare, they made bronze weapons and chariotry
what was the BMAC expertise in this field?
BMAC and Sintashta/Andronovo were 2 completely different cultures, it goes without saying, one learned a lot from the other when they met
 
bicicleur said:
how old is Proto-Semitic ?
I think not much older than 5600 years
both Semites and Arabs were herding people, they travelled around a lot
they may have seen snow and bears in Southern Lebanon
Click to expand...

You would be more accurate if you said 5000 BC, actually. In my opinion, Proto-Semitic is older than PIE (the vocabulary is consistent with that of a Neolithic language), and Afroasiatic as a whole (of which Proto-Semitic is but one branch) is substantially older than Proto-Indo-European. In my opinion, the Halaf culture is a very good candidate for the Proto-Semitic homeland, it has all the items reconstructable for Proto-Semitic (including snow and bears):

Mesopotamia_Per%C3%ADodo_6.PNG


this fits, Arabs started agriculture in western Yemen and consequently grew and traded mirre and frankinsense in Ethiopia
central and eastern semitic are the E-M34 Semites
Click to expand...

Both the trees that Sile posted show that Arabic is firmly within Central Semitic, why would they start out in Yemen and Ethiopia if their most closely related languages were in Syria, Lebanon and Palestine?
 
bicicleur said:
Sintashta lived in fortified settlements, there was warfare, they made bronze weapons and chariotry
what was the BMAC expertise in this field?
BMAC and Sintashta/Andronovo were 2 completely different cultures, it goes without saying, one learned a lot from the other when they met
Click to expand...
Huge proto-urban fortified settlements with own capital city with residential quarters, workshops and temples , they had a developed writing system and were a literate civilization. Also metallurgy in BMAC came from West Asia.
 
Sile said:
yes

you do know there was no northern route between the caspian sea and aral sea as the aral sea was 250 metres higher ( than what it is today ) and was the continually being fed by melting snow above it
Click to expand...

where did you get this?
once upon a time, the Aral Sea oveflew into the Caspian Sea, but that was 8-1000 years or longer ago
and it didn't need to rise 250 meter to overflow, maybe 25 meter

and you're right, between Caspain and Arals Sea, it is desert
 
bicicleur said:
I agree, I believe Indo-Aryan migration were R1a Andronovo people
But they don't account for 80 % Punjabis, there were more migrations of other R1a people into N-India later
Click to expand...
Why would Andronovo/Uralic R1a or ancient Maikop vases have such a fascination with Asiatic Lion's.
Even going into detail showing their ears and extended mane under their belly? Did the Hittite[first group to leave PIE homeland]wine drinking people also have this fascination or word for Lion?
MSU_V2P2_-_Panthera_leo_manes.png
 
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