How in the world did you make this conclusion?
Proto-Indo-Europeans were the Highlanders, who lived near the sea.
- Thread starter Robert6
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How in the world did you make this conclusion?
The Caucasus play a key role in the emergence of PIE, there's no doubt, but it's inadequate to be ascribed the homeland, for a variety of reason.
I apologize for derailing this with the pigmentation and genetics can of worms.
I'm not saying that these samples were of Y hap R. All I'm saying is that I think these alleles were originally passed to EEMH through a group consisting of a large number of R1* males.
The reasoning behind this notion rests on a confluence of data encompassing all disciplines, and it could change as new findings are reported. This is probably an oversimplification e.g. it's likely that Y hap I groups possessed some of the same alleles, but I would still contend that it was passed from the same source, which could have been R*1, or further "upstream"
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Wow, I'll have to get back to this one.
I didn't think those could possibly be real questions. Kerelian? wtf
This is not only highly unlikely, but nearly impossible on countless grounds.
You appear to be ignoring the archaeological, historical, linguistic, and genetic evidence all in one post. Amazing actually. Thanks.
bicicleur 2
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you're right, we know very little about light pigmentation
but I don't agree with your asumption it originated in northern Europe
Tochars and the Tarim mummies where light pigmented too, this can't have originated in northern Europe
there are hints of light-pigmented Gutians who invaded Mesopotamia after the fall of the empire of Sargon the Great
where these Gutians came from is not exactly known, but it might be the Armenian highlands or south of the Caspian Sea
on the other hand, light pigmentation in Europe seems to be linked with haplo I1 and R, which is in favour of your asumption
but since I1 has been discovered in neolithic Hungary, I1 pigmentation could have been affected by EEF admixture
bicicleur 2
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the origins of R1a : http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29701-New-R1a-Paper-by-Underhill-et-al-(2014)
highest diversity of R1b (oldest clades) : NW-Iran
could it be that R1a and R1b crossed the Caucasus not earlier than the Maykop-era?
Aberdeen
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I personally think it's very unlikely, given that both R1a and R1b showed up in Europe nearly 5000 years ago - they would have had to travel quite quickly once they crossed the Caucasus in order to get that far north and west that quickly. As for the linguists, there was a sea beside Maykop and near Yamnaya - it's called the Black Sea.
Angela
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There's still a lot of research to be done, but there are those papers that see SLC24A5 radiating from the Caucasus. Then again, we get some stray SLC42A5 up in the far northeast. All of that has to do with where mutations might have originated, of course, not where they seriously started to spread, much less swept to fixation.
Since the effects are supposed to be cumulative, the meeting of both these genes in one group could have been the big catalyst.
If the theories about the connection between agriculture and climate are correct (and perhaps the one about milk consumption) we should be able to narrow it down some day.
As to the tremendous sweep in the north, I actually think it fits with the agriculture theory. If you're transitioning to agriculture, changing much of your diet, have some disastrous crop failures and famines with an accompanying bottleneck (all of which happened there) I could see how it could become fixed.
Ed.The Sandra Wilde paper about the Eneolithic and Bronze Age Steppe was particularly surprising, especially given the fact that the changeover may have happened from Bronze Age to Classical Age rather than from Bronze Age to modern era, which would be incredibly fast. I don't know if I ever linked to Dienekes' discussion of it, so here it is:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/03/dark-pigmentation-of-eneolithic-and.html
A new paper is supposedly coming out soon, so perhaps we'll get some more clarity.
When I speak of "pigmentation" I'm talking about hair, eyes, AND skin, taken together. I should not have to explain why this would interest me more than just skin.
The notion that all of these alleles were not only generated (through epigenetic signaling or mutation), but selected for, resulting in large groups of carriers in a hundred or so generations is absurd.
Genes for metabolizing lactose are completely different. They are already there. The only question here is whether or not they stay turned on.
What's being implied if not asserted outright is that because it was cloudy in Eurasia, and people started having access to cereal grains compeling them to eat less high vitamin D foods like fish, they suffered so much from low D that they couldn't reproduce.
Think about this for a second.
The notion that all of these alleles were not only generated (through epigenetic signaling or mutation), but selected for, resulting in large groups of carriers in a hundred or so generations is absurd.
Genes for metabolizing lactose are completely different. They are already there. The only question here is whether or not they stay turned on.
What's being implied if not asserted outright is that because it was cloudy in Eurasia, and people started having access to cereal grains compeling them to eat less high vitamin D foods like fish, they suffered so much from low D that they couldn't reproduce.
Think about this for a second.
arvistro
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How many thousand years would seal the deal for you?
It depends, and units would be in generations of course. In the scenarios being theorized I'm not sure it would ever happen. Vitamin D levels so low that people are dying before they can reproduce? No way.
With high environmental selective pressures, meaning browner dark haired people are dying before they can reproduce? I dunno. Tens of thousands of generations? Is this through random mutation or some epigenetic signaling that would accelerate pigment allele diversification?
And were talking several alleles here, all of which would have to be individually generated.
Dagne
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"In females, pelvic distortion from rickets may cause problems with childbirth later in life".
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/985510-overview
LeBrok
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Not in Alaska. The movement of black or dark brown (whatever was the initial colour) people from Africa took thousands or tens of thousands of years to progress North. It was a gradual process. The lighter they got the farther north they could get, generation after generation. If they ate a lot of fresh animal liver, like Inuit (Eskimo) do, they didn't need to get white to progress to central Europe or Syberia. Eating fresh liver could be compared to eating supplements with vitamins, or vitamin D fortified food.
It is possible to receive lucky mutations through tens of thousands of years and lighten up, so to speak. Having said that I still believe that they picked up lighter skin mutations from Neanderthals. At least initially. It was the easiest way around. However, recent research doesn't confirm Neanderthal's skin colour alleles in recent human populations. It might be due to fast (under pressure) mutating genes beyond easy comparison. I'm not sure. We know that Homo Sapiens mated with Neanderthals, so I would be surprised if first Sapiens in Europe didn't have Neanderthal's skin alleles to make them lighter.
motzart
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Ust Ishim should have had light skin then because he had large segments of Neanderthal DNA, but he had dark hair/eyes/skin. The same could be said for all of the ancient DNA so far, if they did get light skin from Neanderthals then it should be present in older samples. To the contrary we see that light skin is first found in Neolithic farmers while Mesolithic WHGs and ANEs have dark skin, althought WHGs seem to all have light eyes.
To me this implies that light skin evolved in tandem with farming in the Middle East. You forgot to take into account that Eskimos have large sections of Neanderthal DNA, as do all East Asian and American Indian groups
Angela
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I don't know of any study that specifically studied the pigmentation alleles of the Eskimos, but they migrated to the Western Hemisphere fairly recently as these things go, (I remember a figure of four to six thousand years ago, but I can't seem to find the study) so in addition to the depigmentation snps which all non-Africans share, I would think it might be reasonable to assume that they also carry some of the specifically East Asian varieties. Only one such snp has of yet been extensively studied in East Asians.
Regarding the Plains Indians, I'm not sure that I would call them light skinned. They're certainly not "European" fair, or even "West Asian" fair. I know older photos have a tendency to look darker than the reality, and there are the effects of constant exposure to sunlight to consider, but I would doubt that these Cheyenne have all the major European skin depigmentation variants.
There has been some testing of Northern Hemisphere Amerindians, but it's quite limited. They are, as I'm sure you know, often very reluctant to permit whole scale genetic testing, mainly, I think, because of political/ethnic concerns over quantifying the degree of admixture with Europeans.
This is the link to a forensics study that does seem to have tested some of them, and found that they definitely do carry the skin lightening version of the ASIP gene: rs2424984.
They tested for a lot of the snps, but I can't seem to find specific percentages for them.
Valenzuela et al, Predicting Phenotype From Genotype
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3626268/
There's also the study on SLC24A5: This is the graphic that shows percentages of ancestral versus derived allele:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...:Ala111Thr_allele_frequency_distribution0.png
You can see that there's been some amount of introgression of a West Eurasian depigmentation snp into the Cheyenne gene pool, apparently just in the last one hundred years or so, but it's not very much. (I would assume that only those as "pure blooded" as possible were tested. Mexicans, who have been modeled as having a few percent African autosomal input, with the rest approximately divided between Amerindian and European autosomes, approach a 50% level of the snp.
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