Question about R1b and IE languages in Iberia

[adamo]

But the original R1b men arrived from Central Asia through russia through Europe to Iberia anyways, of course certain rare central Asian branches are older than the European ones that radiated out from Iberia. What's your point? : )

 

[Anthro-inclined]

But the original R1b men arrived from Central Asia through russia through Europe to Iberia anyways, of course certain rare central Asian branches are older than the European ones that radiated out from Iberia. What's your point? : )

The problem is that R1b itself is only 18500 years old. These ancient and oldest lineages are found in west asia not Iberia, the European ones are about 9000 or so years old, at least the oldest ones in Europe, and they are found in East Europe not Iberia. With all this in mind it seems unlikely that it entered europe 30000 years ago, let alone dispersed from Iberia in the epipaleolithic.

 

[Mikewww]

The problem is that R1b itself is only 18500 years old. These ancient and oldest lineages are found in west asia not Iberia, the European ones are about 9000 or so years old, at least the oldest ones in Europe, and they are found in East Europe not Iberia. With all this in mind it seems unlikely that it entered europe 30000 years ago, let alone dispersed from Iberia in the epipaleolithic.

It's actually R1, not R1b that is estimated by Karafet 2008 (SNP counting) to be 18.5K years before present (ybp). R1b is younger, Most of the R1b in Western and Central Europe is R1b-L11, which is quite a bit younger yet.

 

[Mikewww]

.... I also believe to a certain point Iberia is the point of origin of R1b...

What genetic evidence do you have that supports this contention? R1b has higher diversity and earlier branching subclades back in Anatolia, Caucasus, the Balkans and Near East.

 

[Mikewww]

... Where is the R1b in the Near East, except for Armenia (where in fact only about one third of the men are R1b) and Turkey (where I believe most of the R1b is U152, from Romans and Galatians) ? Sure, it's present at 5% - 10% rates elsewhere, but that's nowhere enough to explain peaks of 90% R1b in Western Europe (with a virtual absence of J2, G2a, E, etc), is it?

Frequency is NOT a good indicator of origin. Diversity is a better indicator as well as presence of earlier branching subclades.

That's what we see in Anatolia, the Balkans, the Caucasus and the Near East.

 

[Mikewww]

Everyone knows there is a fairly logical correlation between R1b-M269 and Indo-European languages in Western Europe. However, looking at linguistic maps of pre-Roman Iberia, and comparing them to current haplogroup distribution maps, one can't help noticing that the entire eastern Iberia and the Pyrenees, areas where non-EU languages were spoken (Iberian, Aquitanian/Proto-Basque), have an overwhelming presence of R1b (80-85%), whereas the West of the peninsula, which was an IE stronghold (Lusitanian & various Celtic languages), has a considerably lower rate of R1b (50-60%).

What could explain this? What went "wrong" in Iberia, in regards to the "R-M269 = IE" equation?

Nothing went wrong. R1b is quite predominant throughout the Iberian Peninsula. The Basques are a small minority in the area of the Pyrenees.

I know it has been proposed that the Basques, as the one exception to the general rule in Europe, were originally IE R1b's whose kids learned their mothers's native language, but is it reasonable to assume that this process happened in such a larger scale, in about 1/3 of Iberia + SW France? Confusing...

Nothing is 100% absolute, but I would not let the exception (the small minority of R1b in Europe speaking non-IE) confuse the vast correlation of R1b, specifically P312 and U106, with IE languages across almost all of Western and Central Europe.

We don't know. We are just speculating, but I would not focus too much on the anomalies.

 

[kamani]

The correlation between IE and current R1b distribution might be a little decieving. That's because The Spanish and French speak IE because of latin, so because of the romans. English is also heavily influenced by latin and old-german. So really, the whole western europe speaks mostly a mix of latin and german, which were established there fairly late in the game and came from central and northern europe. There is also the old celtic language, which was there before the romans and vikings, but that also came from central europe (Hallstat in Austria), which has a lot of R1a and other hg. It makes more sense that R1b subgroups were already established in the west, when IE language came in the area. The alternative would be that the source of IE languages in the west is proto-albanian, because they have the oldest R1b-269, but that's hard to believe.

 

[adamo]

I didn't mean to say R1b " originated" in Iberia, I meant to say it spread hroughout Europe from there possibly where it waited out the LGM. I know diversity and age are better indicators than highest frequencies.

 

[zanipolo]

I didn't mean to say R1b " originated" in Iberia, I meant to say it spread hroughout Europe from there possibly where it waited out the LGM. I know diversity and age are better indicators than highest frequencies.

let me ask this question, with the latest revealtion that Bell Beakers moved/migrated/invade from iberia to Central europe , what Y-dna did they bring from Iberia if it was not R1, was it I, E or ......

Read the attachment in the bell beaker thread

 

[Degredado]

Frequency is NOT a good indicator of origin. Diversity is a better indicator as well as presence of earlier branching subclades.

That's what we see in Anatolia, the Balkans, the Caucasus and the Near East.

I agree with you. I think it's highly probable that R1b appeared somewhere just South or East of the Black Sea. And yes, frequencies change with time. What I find strange, however, is the occurrence of a founder effect with peaks of 90% R1b (Ireland, Wales, Basque Country) in Western Europe. Why don't we find "fellow" Anatolian J2, G2a, J1, E, etc, in these areas, in at least remotely similar frequencies to R1b, as it happens in West Asia?

Drawing a parallel, it's as if Latin America (which has Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies very similar and proportional to Iberia's) had 50% J2, with regional peaks of 80%. With J2 being about 10% of Iberian lineages, what are the odds of such unbalanced founder effect? Unless we assume, returning to the R1b topic, that Western Europe was overtaken by one random R1b man with his sons and brothers, and by their descendants. Which, I guess, isn't impossible, as a gradual process.

Nothing is 100% absolute, but I would not let the exception (the small minority of R1b in Europe speaking non-IE) confuse the vast correlation of R1b, specifically P312 and U106, with IE languages across almost all of Western and Central Europe.

We don't know. We are just speculating, but I would not focus too much on the anomalies.

The thing is, non IE-languages were not spoken exclusively in the Basque homeland, but in a much broader area, including all of Mediterranean Iberia as well. And as linguistic evidence suggests, those regions spoke not one, but two apparently unrelated non-IE languages (Iberian in the Mediterranean and Aquitanian-Basque in the Pyrenees). So it's fair to say that in R1b-saturated Iberia, non-IE was not just some small anomaly, but almost the "co-rule", so to speak.

 

[Mikewww]

The correlation between IE and current R1b distribution might be a little decieving. That's because The Spanish and French speak IE because of latin, so because of the romans. English is also heavily influenced by latin and old-german. So really, the whole western europe speaks mostly a mix of latin and german, which were established there fairly late in the game and came from central and northern europe. There is also the old celtic language, which was there before the romans and vikings, but that also came from central europe (Hallstat in Austria), which has a lot of R1a and other hg. It makes more sense that R1b subgroups were already established in the west, when IE language came in the area.

Celtic languages were the most common languages in Western Europe before the Romance and Germanic languages expanded. Where were Celtic languages spoken longest (and still to some degree)? The western portions of the British Isles and Bretagne. This is exactly where R1b is at its highest frequencies. Celts over-ran the Iberian Peninsula long before the Romans got there. Some of the old languages also show signs of being Italic.

On the other hand, R1a barely exists in some of these areas and some of that may NOT have arrived until Germanic folks, like Visigoths, and later Vikings, carried it in.

Also note that R1b was found in Bell Beaker folks in Thuringia region of Germany. R1b was also in Urnfield people in the Lower Saxony region of Germany. These people were there before Hallstat and may have just been predecessors or relatives of predecessors.

The alternative would be that the source of IE languages in the west is proto-albanian, because they have the oldest R1b-269, but that's hard to believe.

Why not think of Proto-IndoEuropean as a common base rather than Proto-Albanian? or some western dialect of IE that was Centum based?

I do want to point out that I am not trying to contend R1b folks were in the original PIE speakers. I don't know, but somehow R1b became very strongly associated with at least three major branches of Western IE Centum-based language groups, Italic, Celtic and Germanic. We find a strong correlation of U152 with Italic, L21 with NW Celtic, DF27 with SW Celtic and U106 with Germanic.

I don't know how that happened, but it is easier to think these major youthful components of R1b-L11 each learned Western IE Centum based languages separately in different locations or that they helped bring them from a common base language base, one that might have had some L11 folks speaking it?

Celtic languages were widespread in Western Europe and especially up and down the Atlantic facade. How did the Celtic get there without a strong boost from the P312 folks like L21 and DF27? This is where P312 is quite dominant.

 

[Mikewww]

...
The thing is, non IE-languages were not spoken exclusively in the Basque homeland, but in a much broader area, including all of Mediterranean Iberia as well. And as linguistic evidence suggests, those regions spoke not one, but two apparently unrelated non-IE languages (Iberian in the Mediterranean and Aquitanian-Basque in the Pyrenees). So it's fair to say that in R1b-saturated Iberia, non-IE was not just some small anomaly, but almost the "co-rule", so to speak.

It all depends on the timeframe but I think the one we are talking about is the period before the Roman Empire expanded and spread old Vulgar Latin (pre-Romance) across Western Europe.

During that time-frame what evidence do we have that non IE languages were spoken in a "much broader area" and what evidence is there that any old remnant languages of the Early and Middle Neolithic Ages are related to Euskara, the Basques' language?

On the other hand, Celtic and Italic tribes were spread all over Western Europe all the way up and down the Atlantic on the west.

 

[Mikewww]

I didn't mean to say R1b " originated" in Iberia, I meant to say it spread hroughout Europe from there possibly where it waited out the LGM. I know diversity and age are better indicators than highest frequencies.

What is the genetic evidence that R1b "spread throughout Europe" from Iberia? We don't have ancient DNA of R1b in the Neolithic timeframe excavations. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence so that doesn't prove R1b wasn't there but what evidence do you have that it was before the Bell Beakers? The earliest R1b we have is in Kromsdorf, Germany (Thuringia).

There is no adequate survey of ancient DNA, but what does the modern DNA tell us? Iberia is probably heavily dominated by a R1b-DF27 people. DF27 is a portion of P312 and is a brother to U152 and to L21 and a cousin to U106. SRY2627 and M153 are descendants of DF27. DF27 is spread thoughout Iberia as well as being among the Basques whereas U152 was blocked out, L21 only reaches into the Pyrenees region where people may have settled from France. U106 is far to the north of Iberia in Scandinavian and northern continental lands.

The subclades of R1b I just ran through are the major elements of R1b-L11. It is R1b-L11 that is dominates Europe. It is primarily only the DF27 branch of L11 that dominates Iberia.

Meanwhile L11's cousins, the L23* people are predominant far to the east in Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Balkans.

I just don't see the genetic evidence for R1b spreading across Europe from Iberia. Perhaps some did, but there is no reason to think R1b didn't spread all over Europe from multiple directions.

 

[ElHorsto]

The fact alone that R1b is so young in Iberia with low diversity might be indicative for a shorter IE influence there and might explain why more non-IE languaged survived there. And by R1b being young and abundant in Iberia at the same time, it supports the theory of strong genetic drift and lack of other accompanying haplogroups usually found together with R1b in the east, because initial to a genetic drift avery small sample seed is required, where initially rare haplogroups are already easily missed with high chance. If Maciamo's theory of R1b producing more male offspring is true, it becomes even more possible.
Non-IE Sardinians for example have relatively much less R1b than neighbouring countries and their language was non-IE until recent.

 

[ebAmerican]

Recent studies have shown R1b-M343* in Iran, Jordan, Egypt, and Sudan. They looked to be P-25 negative, but there is a chance that the marker for P25 went from a positive to a negative ancestral state in the modern population. It is speculated that King Tut was R1b. If the Egyptian and Sudanese were actually positive for P25 there may be a link for M269 to develop in Iberia by way of north African Mediterranean coast. The Red Sea R1b-P25 may have broke into P297 and it's decedents went north and became M73 and west through Egypt along the African coat into Iberia and became M269. An offshoot of R1b-P25 may have went south into Africa and became V88. Just a thought!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

 

[adamo]

The bell beaker men where proto-celts. Their first settlements have been found on the coast of Atlantic culture and central Spain. They subsequently spread through parts of France, the British isles, continental Germany , Switzerland, holland even as far as Austria and the Czech Republic between 3000-2000 years before Christ (amen to this theory.) their distribution correlates perfectly with the spread of R1b from Iberia, where it waited out the LGM while its diversity being greatly decreased by the difficulties of trying to survive the LGM and losing some "stock" of men to it, before subsequently re-expanding through western parts of Europe when the "environmental conditions" improved. They where the first men to reach England and Ireland. This may explain why P-312, highest in Iberia and south-eastern France, is the father of the more central-western continental u152 and the Irish L-21. As many people have now stated S-21 is a closely related cousin also. The original Romans (latins) that spread their Latin tongue across Iberia and france where probably heavily R1b men as their nearby cousins where. The basques on the other hand, are an isolated enigma as there is not one single theory explaining why they speak Euskara, an isolated non-indo European language. As for their genetic composition, basques are almost scarily R1b, with 90% of their males being R1b, the highest frequency in Europe, only matching up with the heavy frequencies of the bell beaker Irish and welsh. Even the spaniards that surround them have about 15% less R1b. It seems that somehow, these genetically "Celtic" people may somehow be an isolated community that is the father of all later expanding celts, the very first European bastion area of R1b predominant people. They would eventually spread their genetic legacy from Gascony in north-western Spain all across western/central Europe. Due to their isolation , they kept their own "basic" language and slightly different culture, to me this is why they culturally "stand out" but genetically fit in more than perfectly, seeming to be the source of all this R1b, I believe they even have subclades only found in themselves, basques

 

[zanipolo]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

are these R1b breakups form 2012 survey dead?

note - I am amazed by the "purity" of the NEItaly/east austrian area

 

[Degredado]

It all depends on the timeframe but I think the one we are talking about is the period before the Roman Empire expanded and spread old Vulgar Latin (pre-Romance) across Western Europe.

During that time-frame what evidence do we have that non IE languages were spoken in a "much broader area" and what evidence is there that any old remnant languages of the Early and Middle Neolithic Ages are related to Euskara, the Basques' language?

On the other hand, Celtic and Italic tribes were spread all over Western Europe all the way up and down the Atlantic on the west.

Here are some linguistic maps of Pre-Roman Iberia:

 

[ElHorsto]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

are these R1b breakups form 2012 survey dead?

note - I am amazed by the "purity" of the NEItaly/east austrian area

This map shows that the three major west european clades (blue U152, darkblue S116, green U106) all already occur in Ukraine and the east Pontic coast but there together with ancestral clade (red L23). This suggests a route from east black sea coast -> east europe/balkans -> cenral europe -> WE. Although this is not so apparent for the "Italian" blue clade U152, which could have a more southern history too.

The oldest one (M269 brown) stretches from Iran, Anatolia and Balkans.

I wonder why no other R1b variants have developed in the near east and Anatolia, given that there are the oldest clades.

Maybe R1b came from the Balkans, since all of the older and most newer clades occur there?

 

[Ziober]

Important:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_kingdom