R-L21 in Northern Portugal

[Barantes]

I thought that new surveys had found just the contrary: that Y-R1b-L21 was the highest among Basque country of Iberia !?! (about 18%) ??? I shall look for...

that's what I was getting at, I thought i read something about it being highest among the basques but wasn't sure if what I was reading was truthful or not. Other than Basques, is there any specific area of Iberia that it is prevalent?

 

[Barantes]

If there are any updates about R-L21 in Northern Portugal or Iberia in general feel free to notify me about it

 

[Dubhthach]

For European R1b-L21 it's important to test DF13 status. 90%+ of L21er's are DF13+. Another 5% are DF63+ and the remainder are L21** (DF13-,DF63-). All of major subclades of L21 are DF13+. It definetly dominates in Ireland and Britain when it comes to men who are L21+, whereas we are seeing a higher level of L21** (DF13-,DF63-) coming from the continent, which points to older nature of L21 there.

Currently the structure of L21 is looking like the following at the moment:

 

[MOESAN]

For European R1b-L21 it's important to test DF13 status. 90%+ of L21er's are DF13+. Another 5% are DF63+ and the remainder are L21** (DF13-,DF63-). All of major subclades of L21 are DF13+. It definetly dominates in Ireland and Britain when it comes to men who are L21+, whereas we are seeing a higher level of L21** (DF13-,DF63-) coming from the continent, which points to older nature of L21 there.

Currently the structure of L21 is looking like the following at the moment:

View attachment 5829

thanks Dubhthach
I red on another blog what you are writing here - the most of L21* (DF13-)(DF63-) would be in Western and South Western Europe, the Isles L21 being closer to the mix with majority of DF13 we are supposed to find in the Netherland W-Germany
it confirmes that the first Y-R1b-L21 were formed on the continent (it is without surprise) - a first wave of Celts (? previously Gaelic ???) or of celtized central Europeans, before settle between Switzerland-S-Germany and the Ocean???

 

[Dubhthach]

thanks Dubhthach
I red on another blog what you are writing here - the most of L21* (DF13-)(DF63-) would be in Western and South Western Europe, the Isles L21 being closer to the mix with majority of DF13 we are supposed to find in the Netherland W-Germany
it confirmes that the first Y-R1b-L21 were formed on the continent (it is without surprise) - a first wave of Celts (? previously Gaelic ???) or of celtized central Europeans, before settle between Switzerland-S-Germany and the Ocean???

Well highest level of L21** (DF13-/DF63-) appears to be showing up in France. In Ireland in comparison nearly everything is coming back as a member of one of many subclades of DF13. For example the major clusters in Ireland are:

1. NorthWest Irish: DF13+ -> DF49+ -> DF23+ -> M222+
2. South Irish (Type II): DF13+ -> CTS4466+/CTS5714+ (brand new SNP's)\
3. Irish Type III: DF13+ -> Z253+ -> Z2534+ -> L226+
4. Irish Type IV/Continental: DF13+ -> Z253+ -> Z2534+ -> Z2185+ -> L1066+
5. Airghialla I: DF13+ -> L513+ -> L69+ (L69 is unstable in general)
6. Clann Colla (Airghialla II): DF13+ -> DF21+ (with NULL at STR DYS425)
7. Leinster (Laighin): DF13+ -> Z255+ -> L159.2+

And those are just the big genetic STR clusters, there are several other ones all generally showing up as subclades under DF13.

This ties in with some of work on TMRCA with STR's which were pointing towards higher genetic diversity on the contient particulary in France then in the likes of Ireland.

Z253 is an interesting one as appart from been found in Ireland, Britain and Northern France it was originally identified in a sample from the Americas where the person tested had iberian origins. Some of TMRCA calcuations put it on the order of 3,000 ± 500 years. The implication given it's spread is it probably arose in France and spread from there both into the isles and likewise southwestwards into Iberia.

 

[MOESAN]

thousand thanks!
slainte!

 

[Barantes]

Well highest level of L21** (DF13-/DF63-) appears to be showing up in France. In Ireland in comparison nearly everything is coming back as a member of one of many subclades of DF13. For example the major clusters in Ireland are:

1. NorthWest Irish: DF13+ -> DF49+ -> DF23+ -> M222+
2. South Irish (Type II): DF13+ -> CTS4466+/CTS5714+ (brand new SNP's)\
3. Irish Type III: DF13+ -> Z253+ -> Z2534+ -> L226+
4. Irish Type IV/Continental: DF13+ -> Z253+ -> Z2534+ -> Z2185+ -> L1066+
5. Airghialla I: DF13+ -> L513+ -> L69+ (L69 is unstable in general)
6. Clann Colla (Airghialla II): DF13+ -> DF21+ (with NULL at STR DYS425)
7. Leinster (Laighin): DF13+ -> Z255+ -> L159.2+

And those are just the big genetic STR clusters, there are several other ones all generally showing up as subclades under DF13.

This ties in with some of work on TMRCA with STR's which were pointing towards higher genetic diversity on the contient particulary in France then in the likes of Ireland.

Z253 is an interesting one as appart from been found in Ireland, Britain and Northern France it was originally identified in a sample from the Americas where the person tested had iberian origins. Some of TMRCA calcuations put it on the order of 3,000 ± 500 years. The implication given it's spread is it probably arose in France and spread from there both into the isles and likewise southwestwards into Iberia.

so you think this originated in Gaul and people moved from there to Iberia or the Isles?

 

[Dubhthach]

so you think this originated in Gaul and people moved from there to Iberia or the Isles?

Well just going on the STR diversity and the number of DF13-/DF63- the area that is now France (and perhaps Western Germany as well?) is looking like a source destination.

L21 is old enough, it's a Bronze Age SNP, some of folks doing TMRCA calculations have put the figure of 3,700-4,000 years old (2000-1700BC).

 

[Copeton]

Bueno, el nivel más alto de L21** (DF13-/DF63-) parece estar apareciendo en Francia. En Irlanda, en comparación, casi todo está volviendo como miembro de uno de los muchos subclados de DF13. Por ejemplo, los grupos principales en Irlanda son:

1. Noroeste de Irlanda: DF13+ -> DF49+ -> DF23+ -> M222+
2. Irlandés del Sur (Tipo II): DF13+ -> CTS4466+/CTS5714+ (SNP completamente nuevos)
3. Tipo III irlandés: DF13+ -> Z253+ -> Z2534+ -> L226+
4. Tipo IV/Continental irlandés: DF13+ -> Z253+ -> Z2534+ -> Z2185+ -> L1066+
5. Airghialla I: DF13+ -> L513+ -> L69+ (L69 es inestable en general)
6. Clann Colla (Airghialla II): DF13+ -> DF21+ (con NULL en STR DYS425)
7. Leinster (Laighin): DF13+ -> Z255+ -> L159.2+

Y esos son sólo los grandes grupos genéticos STR, hay varios otros que generalmente aparecen como subclados bajo DF13.

Esto se vincula con algunos trabajos en TMRCA con STR que apuntaban hacia una mayor diversidad genética en el continente, particularmente en Francia y luego en países como Irlanda.

El Z253 es interesante, ya que, además de haberse encontrado en Irlanda, Gran Bretaña y el norte de Francia, se identificó originalmente en una muestra de las Américas, donde la persona analizada tenía orígenes ibéricos. Algunos cálculos de TMRCA lo sitúan en el orden de los 3000 ± 500 años. La implicación dada su propagación es que probablemente surgió en Francia y se extendió desde allí a las islas y también al suroeste, a Iberia.

Yo soy del norte de España y tengo Z253

 

[MOESAN]

I've been described as L21* (S145?) after 2 analyses, my male ancestors are from Brittany. Maybe further analyseses I didn't order could have showed some subclade. ATW, western continental L21 could have reached Iberia (north for the most) during the famous Atlantic BA; we see at the contrary some infusions of DF27, centered on Iberia, appearing in Brittany and Britain and even farther in northern Europe... someexchanges of male lineages at those times?