R1a, R1b (Offtopic from Illyria)

[zanipolo]

Maybe. I have no idea, where R1a originated. I was just denying that Caucasus component was brought by R1b peoples, because R1b correlates instead with Gedrosia component (centum, (turcic?, basque?)), if any. The only R1b I can imagine to be related to Caucasus instead of Gedrosian component are possibly the Bell-beaker's R1b, who were dinaric looking, and the Romans.
Regarding european R1b, I have the theory that it had multiple differing origins, partly non-IE: for instance some might have come by the sea (Bell-beakers?, Megaliths, maybe even early Mesopotamians or even part of Basques?, ...), others by Land route (Northern IE horse riders). Regarding the Northern R1b I have the theory that they likely were Indo-European tribes which originated somewhere from much more east than commonly believed (between Mongolia and Caspian sea). Subjectively, part of Tatar and Afghan peoples often look more like West Europeans than East europeans and they are often blond. Bashkirs could also be related, but it is less visible. The mongolic and oriental influences in these folks are much more recent and coincide with the age of turkic languages (2000 years). Remarkably, the North_euro component stretches very far to the east as well.

but in the recent bell-beakers thread it was stated in the link that R1b-I-T-J was found in the graves, they all come from the caucasus area via north of the black sea and along the danube river to this Bell beaker creation point.
This only means, that the balkans was impassable and the HG there, as an example, E moved northward later, while the R1b and I moved southward after the bell beaker creation. The T branch is said to be perfectly divided by
worldwide distribution of haplogroup T is spotty with some small areas of greater-than-average concentrations. T1a has a more southerly bias from the Near East to Europe and North Africa. T1b has a more northernly bias from the Near East through the Russian plains to Northern Europe.
and so T1b originated in northwest Iran, kurdish area and azaberijan and moved with the other HG as I noted above
conclusion is that R1b was earlier than R1a in europe

 

[ElHorsto]

No BS, just a subjective impression from some videos I've seen. Nevermind.

 

[Yetos]

as proto IE language we considerer a reconstructed language mainly in chariots. war items etc.
I don't know if an effort was done uppon agriculture.

for example I take the Horse wich is a war and chariot item
Greek ικκος and ιππος ikkos and hippos
Latin equum
Germanic Hest horse
Slavic kunj konya kon
to Celtic languages we see Caval Cheval and Hephew (compare greek ippos)
Iranian aspa
Albanian kale
etc
so we reconstruct by following some laws to something like /eqwue/

on the other hand lets try something with agriculture
lets take the pear

Greek αχλαδι and απιδι achlad-ahlad and apid
Latin pirum
Germanic languages pear birne paron
Slavic languages hruska kruska kriauses
Celtic languages pera poire piora
Albanian dardhe

can we create a proto IE language?
we see that latino-Celtic cognates with Germanic and Greek with both but Greek also can cognate with Slavic if we change λυγρα (r->l)


on the other hand lets take the goat as a domesticate animal, and not as a war item
Sanshqrit i Think is aiwa
Greek is αιγα aiwha (wh as in why)
Germanic goat ziege ged gefr
Slavic koza ozka
Armenian ayts
Celtic capral chevre
Albanian dhi

as we see here we have an agricultural word that fits in agricultural

 

[Yetos]

The problem of the Hettite language

the main problem of the hettit language is that has no genders and lacks some gremmatical forms that exists in others

so after thought I am am wondering
if Hettit was not IE language but learn IE when passed from caucasus to minor Asia,
if Hettit were IE and they are connected with Kurgan, then could early IE be a primitive language comparing Hattian or some others.

may I remind you all that we connect a R1b - M23 with Hettits

 

[Taranis]

The problem of the Hettite language

the main problem of the hettit language is that has no genders and lacks some gremmatical forms that exists in others

so after thought I am am wondering
if Hettit was not IE language but learn IE when passed from caucasus to minor Asia,
if Hettit were IE and they are connected with Kurgan, then could early IE be a primitive language comparing Hattian or some others.

may I remind you all that we connect a R1b - M23 with Hettits

Yetos, what you describe about Hittite also applies for Luwian (or more broadly, the Luwian languages group), so these features must be reconstructed for Proto-Anatolian. Also, it's not quite true that the Anatolian languages had no gender: they have an "animate" and "inanimate" gender, which probably occured by merging the masculine and the feminine into a single gender - in this case the "inanimate" gender would be the same as neuter in other IE languages. The alternative would be to suggest that the male/feminine gender somhow only developed after Proto-Anatolian split from (early) Proto-Indo-European, but I have my doubts about that. For instance, a similar merger of genders (masculine + neuter) occured in the Romance languages. It's possible though that Proto-Anatolian split earlier from Proto-Indo-European than all other branches.

Hattian is only poorly attested, it is only known from a few words, but it appears to have been a non-Indo-European language.

 

[Yetos]

Yetos, what you describe about Hittite also applies for Luwian (or more broadly, the Luwian languages group), so these features must be reconstructed for Proto-Anatolian. Also, it's not quite true that the Anatolian languages had no gender: they have an "animate" and "inanimate" gender, which probably occured by merging the masculine and the feminine into a single gender - in this case the "inanimate" gender would be the same as neuter in other IE languages. The alternative would be to suggest that the male/feminine gender somhow only developed after Proto-Anatolian split from (early) Proto-Indo-European, but I have my doubts about that. For instance, a similar merger of genders (masculine + neuter) occured in the Romance languages. It's possible though that Proto-Anatolian split earlier from Proto-Indo-European than all other branches.

Hattian is only poorly attested, it is only known from a few words, but it appears to have been a non-Indo-European language.

yes I know about Hattians,
simply I am thinking if Hattians had complex grammar and genders, maybe they input to them,
that gives IE as a very new language.
just a thought. it can not be proven since our knowledge about Hatti is almost zero

 

[MOESAN]

as proto IE language we considerer a reconstructed language mainly in chariots. war items etc.
I don't know if an effort was done uppon agriculture.

for example I take the Horse wich is a war and chariot item
Greek ικκος and ιππος ikkos and hippos
Latin equum
Germanic Hest horse
Slavic kunj konya kon
to Celtic languages we see Caval Cheval and Hephew (compare greek ippos)
Iranian aspa
Albanian kale
etc
so we reconstruct by following some laws to something like /eqwue/

on the other hand lets try something with agriculture
lets take the pear

Greek αχλαδι and απιδι achlad-ahlad and apid
Latin pirum
Germanic languages pear birne paron
Slavic languages hruska kruska kriauses
Celtic languages pera poire piora
Albanian dardhe

can we create a proto IE language?
we see that latino-Celtic cognates with Germanic and Greek with both but Greek also can cognate with Slavic if we change λυγρα (r->l)


on the other hand lets take the goat as a domesticate animal, and not as a war item
Sanshqrit i Think is aiwa
Greek is αιγα aiwha (wh as in why)
Germanic goat ziege ged gefr
Slavic koza ozka
Armenian ayts
Celtic capral chevre
Albanian dhi

as we see here we have an agricultural word that fits in agricultural

not to criticize your global way of thinking but when we try to reconstruct an ancient "father" language ord by word we can not doing it from a single too strict concept -
when you put some words signifying 'horse' side by side, after having searched them in a dictionary, you risk to forget some interesting roots: it is more gainful to search all the meanings close to this concept: "horse", but also "mare", "fool" or "colt", "filly" and then you see drift s in signification that mask old affinities to us:
celtic *ek-, *ep- + *capal- + *marc- /+/ germanic *hros- << I-E ?*kros-, marc- (>> marhskal = mareschal, marshall, >>,>> mare?), *fol- << *pôl- /+/ slavic *kopila or *kobila ("mare") /+/ latin 'equ-', 'cabal-', 'pul-'
etc...
so let's not deprive ourselves of words that show the links we could pass by them without seeing them because of a too restricted field of meanings - someones, with or without reason, say that the meaning of "horse" 'konj') in slavic is of turkish origin and that it proves that first I-E steppic people learned the horse domestication from Turkic peoples, but we see that 'kobila' is very I-E-like...so hat is sure here?
on the other side, for 'pear' I think some languages loaned the word from latin, and someones (slavic) have an other root?
that tends to prove that the I-E links are tighter as a whole than at a first sight (I know a lot of us know that already!)

 

[bertrand]

I believe that David Anthony's book (the Wheel the horse and Language) hold many hints with regards to the origins of the IE.
First of all it is relatively obvious from the map of IE languages that both European R1b and R1a where of IE origin.
R1b --> Centum languages (originated in Western steppes)
R1a --> satem languages (eastern steppes)
Exception: Tocharian R1a (migrated before the centum/satem split)

Anthony, clearly hints that the IE languages have more similarities with the uralic language group than with Caucasian or Semitic language groups.
As a result it is more probable that IE (R1b/R1b) migrated from the urals down to Ukraine probably at a time (8000BC) when the Caspian and Black see were connected.

In addition, the studies of Myres et al hints that R1 (ancestor of R1b and R1a) emerged in northern Pakistan.

If this is confirmed, in my opinion, R1, R1a, R1b appeared in Pakistan before 12k ago. From there, some R1b migrated south toward Jordan and African while the majority went north toward the Ural.

For those who can read French my theory is detailed on this link:

www.bertrandjost.com/Francais/Monog-famille/Jost/Steppes/conquete-steppes.html

 

[Yetos]

I see everybody here read a lot about the academic of Gibutas but no one ever try glottochronology of Colin Renfrew,

if Renfrew is right then the only proto-IE speakers are either G2 Hg people or J2 +( R1b m23 + R1a M17)?

every body read about wheel and chariot but how many try to find agricultural words and common life words?

a good example to what I mean
Slavic Babus-ka Old woman - grand Mother
Greek Makedonian βεβη bebi bebe, the midwife, the one who brings the baby in the world
italian Bambino the small baby
Modern Greek παππους papus the old man the grand father,

why the word lost its meaning to a tottaly different form and which is the correct road
from Babus-ka to baby? or from baby to babuska?



everybody is connecting Satem with R1a and Centum with R1b
but did ever notice that in areas that no Turkic speaking population migrate exist the Centum language (except tocharian)
and in areas that Turkic speaking population enter are the satem languages?

remember that exception certify the law, (I am talking about Tocharian)


Glottochronology except the case of the connection with Borean languages (Dene -caucas) give IE earlier than Kurgan 1 ( so no wheels and chariot theory) about 7000 bc and more (expansion of G2 maybe?)
or very late near Hettites time about 3000 BC (expansion of J2 maybe?)



PS 1
sometimes the Devil's advocat makes us think by putting a spell


PS 2
Just to inform you all that Tocharian has Aorist tense, meaning that is closer to Greek and Armenian than some other IE languages,
It is relative to Anatolian languages

 

[MOESAN]

MOESAN (with humility) to YETOS
I see everybody here read a lot about the academic of Gibutas but no one ever try glottochronology of Colin Renfrew,
the reliability of glottochronology is still matter of hot discussions – an interesting approach but that needs to become more accurate, I believe – valuable on short periods but not so sure when we go far back -
​

if Renfrew is right then the only proto-IE speakers are either G2 Hg people or J2 +( R1b m23 + R1a M17)?

every body read about wheel and chariot but how many try to find agricultural words and common life words?
I suppose philologists did not wait us to begin this kind of task : of course study of all the lexical categories was done, filiation words and agricultural technical words... and natural environment (animals, plants) words too.


​

a good example to what I mean
Slavic Babus-ka Old woman - grand Mother
Greek Makedonian βεβη bebi bebe, the midwife, the one who brings the baby in the world
italian Bambino the small baby
Modern Greek παππους papus the old man the grand father,
why the word lost its meaning to a tottaly different form and which is the correct road
from Babus-ka to baby? or from baby to babuska?
These words are apparently based on the first clear articulations that a baby can do, bilabials P or B : the first ones he can pronounce and the first one can heard from him (mother, father, aunt...)
& :that said, what do you try to prove here ?

everybody is connecting Satem with R1a and Centum with R1b
but did ever notice that in areas that no Turkic speaking population migrate exist the Centum language (except tocharian) and in areas that Turkic speaking population enter are the satem languages?
remember that exception certify the law, (I am talking about Tocharian)​

I believe there are areas where turkic speaking folks did never enter and where satem speaker nevertheless...
not stupid at first – I thought about that too, after I had red some theories about Siberian and Steppic Bronze civilisations considering them as turkic or proto-turkic and not indo-european... - satemization is for a part a palatization of consonnants and produced fricatives we find in turkic languages too – so you are thinking the east-indo-european speakers are for the most ex-turkic speaking people indo-europeanized ??? -questions :​

-where and when do you place the beginning of satemization (I am not a specialist) because it seams having begun in Europe, gradually among populations speaking already I-Ean dialects and for long enough time?was the Thracians, Getians, Illyrians turkic folks by origin ?​

-so the bulk of the turkic speaking people was caucasian ?​

-so the first I-Eans (centum for you?) was centered more on the central sides of Europe or South Caucasus ? Or had they been pushed westwards from the Steppes to western Europe by Y-R1a turkic speaking tribes before « educating » them in turn ? - ​

-or the most of Y-R1a bearers would have been turkicized populations males (what language before?) that after began to rule I-Ean people but leave their languages for I-E, transmetting their Y-DNA through the male elite domination but not their language? (it recalls me one of the Basque theories for Y-R1b)​

I confess I have thought in this possibility but I am not convinced for now –

Glottochronology except the case of the connection with Borean languages (Dene -caucas) give IE earlier than Kurgan 1 ( so no wheels and chariot theory) about 7000 bc and more (expansion of G2 maybe?)
or very late near Hettites time about 3000 BC (expansion of J2 maybe?)
could you go further on you meaning ? That oldness of I-Ean before the wheel disprove that they discovered and named the wheel ? If they was yet a small population at these dates ?


PS 1
sometimes the Devil's advocat makes us think by putting a spell
???

PS 2
Just to inform you all that Tocharian has Aorist tense, meaning that is closer to Greek and Armenian than some other IE languages,
It is relative to Anatolian languages​

And what ? I-E = anatolian by geographic origin ? Why had not been found I-E writings earlier in Balkans if they came with Néolithic agriculture (but the previous matriarcal organization does not fit too well)? Or did they come only at the Chalcolithic ages, speaking I-E when the first agriculteurs did not ? And why wait so long time to invade Europe ?​

Maybe have you some answers ?​

 

[Eldritch]

Has R1a L664 ever been found west of Germany or SE of Italy?