R1a-Z93 in Yamnaya

[dodona]

the question is not whether the Botaï domesticated the horse, the question is to what extent did they domesticate the horse and for what purpose and where they the first? the Botaï swithced all of a sudden from HG to horse herding without any other antecedents David Anthony suggests the Botaï learned about horse herding from the Afanasievo people, moving from the Volga area to the Altaï

Botai was a relatively short living culture which disappeared after a couple of centuries. If they invented horse domestication then their military advance was so big that they would have conquered the whole russian steppe, and most of Eurasia in a short period. This definitely wasn't the case therefore all the stories about kumis drinking Botai people living in jurtes can't be true.

 

[MOESAN]

Please, show me all these Turkic horse training and riding loan words in all IE languages. I would love to see them.

I imagine they're exclusive to regions that fell under very very very recent Turkic expansion of the middle ages, or relatively recent hunnic expansions if we agree that Huns were Turkic and not Iranic. I think most sane academics agree that the Huns were the late classical West's first contact with Turkic speaking peoples.

I have some diverse I-Ean terms for horse world at hand and I looked at some turkic words for the same ground and I did not find evident link; even the slavic word konj for "horse" seems absent of today turkic languages (maybe replaced? I don't know). By the way, if I rely upon some Hungarian old scientist, the Finnic-Uralic languages had contact with I-Ean and Indo-Iranic (loanwords), but he did not cite any turkic influence at this stage. When speaking about later Hungarians (Magyars of the Steppes), this scientist spoke of some stabilization around the Don, and evident turkic influences on the language at this stage, but it doesn't concern the horse world, it concerns principally the agriculture one: culture and breeding: ovins, caprins, bovins, porcins NOT horses!
So if Turcs domesticated horse before others, it doesn't appear too clearly in the languages of their I-Ean and Finnic-Ugric neighbours.

 

[dodona]

So if Turcs domesticated horse before others, it doesn't appear too clearly in the languages of their I-Ean and Finnic-Ugric neighbours.[/I]

the idea that Turks (who appeared very late in history) invented horse riding belongs to the old racist ideologies of the 19th century.

 

[MOESAN]

the idea that Turks (who appeared very late in history) invented horse riding belongs to the old racist ideologies of the 19th century.

-Here I discussed the linguistic point.
- &: "racist ideologies? what is that? "racist" is a dead word as it has been used in so many wrong ways;
-Turcs were not born from nobody nowhere or from Mars green monsters, they had ancestors like us. So? The question is not the date of their apparition in documented history but the facts we could have or not have concerning horse domestication an cavalry use. I have no opinion for now only believings I don't want expose at this stage.
Sometime, invention is not only linked to a specific human group ability but to hazard and natural environment (flora fauna topography...). Maybe steppes were the best place...

 

[LeBrok]

the idea that Turks (who appeared very late in history) invented horse riding .

You might be onto something. If Turks were first to domesticate horses they would have been more mobile and much sooner.

 

[MOESAN]

Lebrok, your point is sensible. But perhaps metals working knowledge (weapons) could have played a role too? Bronze seem late enough East the Altay, but Iron there seems not very later than elsewhere; and Iron seems the starter of East Asian/Altay first moves. Maybe it doesn't prove too much things concerning culture but the first appearence of strong East-Asian demic imput East the Caspian (Kazakhstan) began at Iron Age, if what I red is true.

Personally I don't think Turks were the first horses tamers but...? It's true these regions were not my first place of interest. I have to learn a bit.

 

[LeBrok]

Lebrok, your point is sensible. But perhaps metals working knowledge (weapons) could have played a role too? Bronze seem late enough East the Altay, but Iron there seems not very later than elsewhere; and Iron seems the starter of East Asian/Altay first moves. Maybe it doesn't prove too much things concerning culture but the first appearence of strong East-Asian demic imput East the Caspian (Kazakhstan) began at Iron Age, if what I red is true.

Personally I don't think Turks were the first horses tamers but...? It's true these regions were not my first place of interest. I have to learn a bit.

Nothing is certain, that's for sure. It might be the case that Turks took part in domestication of horses but didn't build up in population numbers to conquer anyone till medieval times, or were lacking bronze or iron, as you said. It'll be interesting to finally learn haplogroup of Botai people.

 

[Fire Haired14]

@Alan,

I got DNAland results for the Sycthian guy. DNAland gives modern regional ancestry percentages. It trys to determine what part of the world you're from. He got almost 100% NorthCentral and NortEast European. I forget the rest. I have other evidence, but don't feel like gathering. He was basically Andronovo+10% something Siberian. Maybe he had a little bit something else, but that's mostly what he was.

 

[Goga]

@ Fire Haired14

Do you know that in the Eastern ARYAN Zoroastrian Avesta writings Scythia and Scythians are not part of the 16 native original lands of the Aryans? Scythians were NEVER considered by the real true Aryans, like the Medes, ancient Persians, Sogdians, Bactrians etc. as Aryan people. It is true that Scythians spoke East Iranic, but that's because they were colonized by the Eastern Aryans, like I did explain before..


Airyanem Vaejo - Iran
Sukhdho - Tajikistan
Mourum - South Turkmenistan
Bakhdhim - North Afghanistan
Nisaim - Northeast Iran
Haroyum - Northwest Afghanistan
Vaekeretem - Eastern Afghanistan
Urvam - Uzbekistan
Khnentem Vehrkano - North-northeast Iran
Harahvaitim - South Central Afghanistan
Haetumantem - SE Afghanistan & E Iran
Rakham - North Iran
Chakhrem - North Iran
Varenem - North Iran
Hapta Hendu - N. Pakistan & NW India
Ranghaya - Kurdistan

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/airyanavaeja.htm#haptahindu

 

[nunofreiresilvameco]

Olá. Hello. My name is Nuno. Family name (paternal) is Meco. My father's male previous generations have been living in Portugal (south) for what i least know, 120 years. My latest ydna test showed me R1a-Z93. And nothing more. I tested for Z94, but it was negative. Just to say i found interesting being this ydna haplogroup and being here for about 4800 years and so far as Portugal. Cheers.