R1b DF27->Z2552->L617

[Rethel]

But I can easily determine this and then maybe I can get into the 1700s with my paper trail.

Are you noting all K.?
Becasue if you are going only by your line,
there can be problems, even false track can happen.

 

[Tomenable]

There isn't a lot of DF27 outside western Europe. But since it has been found in the Caucasus and the Carpathians, there is a good chance that it already existed before R1b PIE left the Pontic Steppe.

I did some research on my subclade.

Apart from British, Iberian, Dutch, French, Lithuanian, Polish and Colonial American (apparently there were many L617 in Virginia in the 1600s) people, there is at least one German. I checked the distribution of his surname (using http://www.verwandt.de/karten/), and I think that he could be originally from the region just to the north of Frankfurt am Main. There are also three (not two)* L617 from Lithuania, but only one with exact location given. I hastily made a map of modern distribution of L617. Cornwall seems to be one of areas of high concentration - even within Britain. Other such areas include the Basque Land (4 samples of L617 in a sample of 229 Basques) and Cambridgeshire. But let's keep in mind that customers of British origin are overrepresented on FTDNA:

https://s4.postimg.io/79wnm2ucd/L617_distribution.png

*Surname of one of these guys from Lithuania looks very Polish (most likely an ethnic Pole), but surnames of the other two Lithuanian guys - not so much. These two other surnames are similar to each other, but one ends with suffix "-as" (which is typically Lithuanian), while the other one ends with suffix "-sky/ski" (which looks Polish, but considering that "core parts" of both surnames are similar - perhaps the variant with "-sky" is a Polonised version of the originally Lithuanian surname ending with suffix "-as").

 

[bicicleur 2]

could the spread to England have happened during Atlantic bronze age?
the English seem to be FGC14951, TRMCA 3400 years

• -L617FGC14937/Y9057 * L617 * FGC14934/Y9056+3 SNPsformed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybpinfo
  • R-L617*
    • id:YF04846
    • id:YF04446
  • R-M225F2106 * M7948 * S14003+3 SNPs
    • id:HG01606
      IBS​
  • R-FGC14951FGC14951formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybpinfo
    • R-FGC14951*
      • id:YF01856
    • R-Y17452Y17452 * Y17453 * Y19554+18 SNPsformed 3400 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
      • R-Y17452*
        • id:YF04841
        • id:YF04839
        • id:YF04270
      • R-Y22430Y22430formed 375 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
        • id:YF05858
        • id:YF05854
        • id:YF04268

 

[LeBrok]

I did some research on my subclade.

Apart from British, Iberian, Dutch, French, Lithuanian, Polish and Colonial American (apparently there were many L617 in Virginia in the 1600s) people, there is at least one German. I checked the distribution of his surname (using http://www.verwandt.de/karten/), and I think that he could be originally from the region just to the north of Frankfurt am Main. There are also three (not two)* L617 from Lithuania, but only one with exact location given. I hastily made a map of modern distribution of L617. Cornwall seems to be one of areas of high concentration - even within Britain. Other such areas include the Basque Land (4 samples of L617 in a sample of 229 Basques) and Cambridgeshire. But let's keep in mind that customers of British origin are overrepresented on FTDNA:

https://s4.postimg.io/79wnm2ucd/L617_distribution.png

*Surname of one of these guys from Lithuania looks very Polish (most likely an ethnic Pole), but surnames of the other two Lithuanian guys - not so much. These two other surnames are similar to each other, but one ends with suffix "-as" (which is typically Lithuanian), while the other one ends with suffix "-sky/ski" (which looks Polish, but considering that "core parts" of both surnames are similar - perhaps the variant with "-sky" is a Polonised version of the originally Lithuanian surname ending with suffix "-as").

What about religious refugees from Great Britain between 15th and 17th century to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? You know, it was a very tolerant country way back, which accepted many refugees from around Europe and Asia.

 

[Tomenable]

could the spread to England have happened during Atlantic bronze age?
the English seem to be FGC14951, TRMCA 3400 years

Yes, FGC14951 is the British/English branch. While L617* is the Eastern/Lithuanian branch.

Here are the main branches (it seems that the Eastern/Lithuanian branch is the oldest one):

So I will probably need Big Y or something like this to see whether I'm also L617* or not:

https://s22.postimg.io/5xgcz72f5/L617_branches.png

What about religious refugees from Great Britain between 15th and 17th century to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? You know, it was a very tolerant country way back, which accepted many refugees from around Europe and Asia.

It depends which is my branch. I still don't know this.

Three Lithuanian guys (Sobolewski, Purisky, Puras) have L617* - and it actually seems to be the oldest branch. So it is unlikely that they came from Britain, because it seems that all of British samples belong to L617>FGC14951+.

could the spread to England have happened during Atlantic bronze age?

Cornwall was an important source of tin during the Atlantic Bronze Age.

So maybe indeed that ancestral FGC14951 came there at that time?

Many of British/English samples belong to Tyndall / Tindale families.

Is it a coincidence? Because these surnames contain the "tin" part...

===================

Edit:

I think that R1b-L617 can be traced back to the Iwno Culture (which was one of Bell Beaker groups):

https://www.academia.edu/2022469/Northern_a...akers_in_Poland

https://www.academia.edu/2022466/The_Constr..._Central_Europe

https://www.academia.edu/2022462/Gesellscha...ichsel_und_Oder

https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/1...iak_323-330.pdf

http://rcin.org.pl/iae/Content/27490/WA308...EZWZGLEDN_I.pdf

http://www.muzeum.bialystok.pl/muzeum/user...y_obrzedowe.pdf

It is probable that soon we will have some ancient DNA from the Iwno Culture (I don't expect it to turn out to be L617 - because this seems to be a rather rare lineage, but maybe they will belong to some other subclades of R1b-DF27):

http://m.torun.wyborcza.pl/torun/1,106521,...eRedirects=true

do you have TMRCA for the Iberian and the eastern branch ?
to which branch belongs the guy from Frankfurt ?

I will check. But I think that there is no information about this so far.

 

[bicicleur 2]

do you have TMRCA for the Iberian and the eastern branch ?
to which branch belongs the guy from Frankfurt ?

 

[Tomenable]

I think that R1b-L617 can be traced back to the Iwno Culture (which was one of Bell Beaker groups):

https://www.academia.edu/2022469/Northern_a...akers_in_Poland


https://www.academia.edu/2022466/The_Constr..._Central_Europe

https://www.academia.edu/2022462/Gesellscha...ichsel_und_Oder


https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/1...iak_323-330.pdf


http://rcin.org.pl/iae/Content/27490/WA308...EZWZGLEDN_I.pdf


http://www.muzeum.bialystok.pl/muzeum/user...y_obrzedowe.pdf

Interestingly, it is probable that soon we will have some samples of ancient DNA from Iwno Culture (I don't expect it to turn out to be L617 - because this seems to be a very minor lineage - but maybe they will belong to some other subclades of R1b-DF27):

http://m.torun.wyborcza.pl/torun/1,106521,...eRedirects=true

do you have TMRCA for the Iberian and the eastern branch ?
to which branch belongs the guy from Frankfurt ?

I will check. But I think that there is no information about this so far.

 

[Tomenable]

Bicicleur, I responded by editing the previous post because I couldn't post a new one in the morning.

So check my previous post again.

 

[lyakh]

I also think that it is interesting to which branch of R1b-L617 belongs a man from Germany.
What if he is closely related to men from Lithuania with R1b-L617*?

It would be interesting if the lineage of OP would be autochtonous since few millennia.

 

[hokiejane]

I'm expecting my Gilbert cousin's R-L617 results any day now. A member of the closely-related Martin line just got his in this past week, and is showing no matches on R-L617...which seems odd.

Jane