My answer to Gaska:
He wrote in vertical letters, I answer in
italics.
Massive male-biased Steppic genetic introgression into Europe is proved? REALLY?- The first R1b-M269 in Europe are in Bulgaria (Smyadovo-4.500 BC), and Spain (ATP3-Atapuerca-3.400 BC). Then you have 3 Neolithic farmers R1b-M269 in Switzerland buried in dolmens (2.730-2.620 BC), two of which have no autosomal steppe signal.
Moesan says:
firstable : 7 generations, say 230 years, at the slower rate of mixing, is sufficient to reduce from 100,00 % to around 0,75 % original DNA in a foreign context ; more often, it reduces a bit less quickly because every generation doesn’t mate with complete foreign people everytime ;
I don’t have the results concerning the precise SNP’s in ATP3, and it is of importance – concerning Switzerland, about the Furtwänger’s paperI read somewhere the Y-R1b MX304 of Auvernier (Romance Switzerland) had been dates 2866/2601 BC, based on another skeleton and the sepulture seemed having been reused, so this Chalco remnants could be younger ; ATW on PCA it was placed between Spanyards, Swiss and North-Italian people, so with some Steppic DNA ; I recall BB’s used more than a time ancient sepultures of predecessors, dolmen among them : Late Neolithic (Eneolithic or Chalcolithic would be better) doesn’t signifiy too much : it’s not synonymous of first polished stones nor early agriculture nor EEF+light WHG auDNA.
You have VK531 in Norway R1b-P297 (2,400 BC) with no trace of steppe ancestry - for you this is a massive invasion of the steppes....
Moesan says : [FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]
Here you mention a[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]
late Neolithic / early BA individual [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]
from northern Norway[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]
who clusters with [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]
pre-Neolithic hunter-gatherers from Norway[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]
(VK531); [/FONT]
R1b-P297 isn’t indicative of too much thing : old SNP, ancestral to M269, yes, and then ? The most of the M269 descendants developped at first somewhere between Eastern Europe and Steppes ; and in past IMO some groups with distinct downstream SNP’s were not full,or they were empty of CHG(like) auDNA so not to be labelled as « Steppic », I agree (rather WHG-EHG in some way). So the descendant of an ancientnorth-eastern European passed into Scandinavia. Maybe without posterity today...No proof his ancestors came from Iberia, and its badly determined SNP’s level lead us nowhere. Let’s remember dates and cultures/civilisations are not synonymous, don’t forget geography (places)…
Let's imagine that you are right and that the origin of P312/Df27 is in the steppes, do you think that those lonely explorers buried in dolmens were able to change the language of western neolithic cultures?
Moesan says : lone (or seemingly lone : elite here) explorers here can go along with huge colonisers there, not too far.
Autosomal composition is proof of what? R1b-M269 has its origin in the steppes?
Don't make me laugh, we have been listening for years to all kinds of Kurganists swearing that they found L51 in the steppes, that the Yamnaya nomads conquered mainland europe, took their women and imposed their language. And you know? the only thing they have found are three Swiss neolithic farmers buried in dolmens.
Moesan says : extra : You need to laugh, it ‘s good for you, so you ought to thank me.
More seriously, the distribution of diverse downstrean SNP’s under L269 (L23 and so on) puts the place of development between Eastern Europe and Steppes and North Caucasus, at first sight (here its’nt only old SNP only but diverses branchs of downstream ones) ; and if you remember what I wrote here and there on fora or blogs, I never said L51 was born on the Steppes, nor even it was by force and very early the mark of IE speakers ; I just said it cannot be born and develop very far from the Steppes ; todate, I’m pushed to think BB’s of the great R1b post-P312 family were certainly early western IE-an speakers or became that very early, but I’m not ready to shoot at people to back this point. Only deductions, no proof for the 3000/2500 BC.
Concerning women, the Furtwänger ‘s paper confirms a LOT of other papers, showing a great exogamy (in the case of Switzerland and southern Germany, among farmers input, GAC and western farmers seem involved, plus WHG’s or their mixes). The paper says too that the new males in Switzerland were heavier in Steppic ancestry than females as a whole, and that as time passed,
they lost more and more they this ancestry :
Abstract from the Furtwänger ‘s paper :
The second distinct cluster is shifted towards the individuals associated with the “Yamnaya” complex, similar to other European groups younger than 2700 BCE, relative to individuals older than 2700 BCE. In this cluster, the oldest individuals are closest to Late Neolithic groups on the steppe, whereas more recent individuals are once again shifted towards the Middle/Late Neolithic cluster. …
Comparing outgroup-f3 statistics between the autosomes and the X chromosome of Final Neolithic and Bronze Age individuals we find that autosomes are more closely related to YAM-related ancestry than the X chromosomes are (Supplementary Note 6), consistent with a model in which more males than females brought YAM-related ancestry into the region as already shown by previous studies. …
All four regions (Iberia, Great Britain, MES and Switzerland) show similar ranges of admixture dates between the steppe-related component and the Neolithic component starting between 3000 and 2500 BCE.
Moesan says : You insist with your « farmers » under dolmens : we know some of the intruders reused previous inhabitants sepultures, sometimes, in more than a place and country ! So, who are your other Swiss « farmers » ? (I haven’t the details to discuss this) -
Mass migration capable of changing the genetics and culture of western europe? Only in their dreams, they even had to force the models to make people believe that those Swiss gentlemen had a small percentage of steppe blood.
Moesan : I doubt sometimes of some surveys in the detail of their interpretation but here I see you are smarter than these scientists.
Regarding those new R1b subclades in Western Europe that appear in the Chalcolithic. It is clear that ATP3 is an Iberian farmer and its autosomal composition seems to have originated in the Balkans. Given that we have Smyadovo 4,500 BC belonging to the Gumelnita culture, I suppose that there were population movements from Eastern Europe during the whole Neolithic, and surely R1b-M269 participated in those migrations.
Moesan says : I said above I didn’t know what late SNP’s had ATP3 : M269 sure ? ATW Personally I believed Bronze Age begun soon in the Balkans under Near-East influences or exchanges spite I thought the most of the moves East to West in Europe until Iberia, by sea more than by land, begun only after 3000 BC, but I’m not a specialist. That said, on my souvenirs, I thought there was curious auDNA in northern Spain at Atapuerca (same as AT...?) among some individuals, showing eastern or very eastern ties ?!? Od GENETIKER, an amateur, showed also a sudden apparition of his dark blue (EHGlike?) (more than in Baden!) along his black blue (WHG) in Spain there and then. What value ?
Of course the Balkans are in eastern Europe, also the Baltic countries are there, but all the R1b documented there are overwhelmingly WHGs and they could have migrated from central Europe to the East as did other male lineages (like R1b-V88) that are also older in the Balkans than in the steppes- I mean the problem is not Eastern Europe, but the obsession to link R1b-M269/L51 with the steppes. That is simply a big lie. Soon there will be published cases of R1b-M269 from Volosovo, and you know what? They don't have a drop of steppe blood, they are simply Whgs that reached the north of Russia.
Moesan says : here you are a bit more reasonable, but L51 is not M269. That said, this WHG nature of auDNA explains very well some outliers like the northern Norwegian VK531. But your other points aren’t sound to me.
If you have more clues for other farmers of Switzerland, let me know, so I could discuss it, maybe in another thread more dedicated to it. And please, don’t take me for a « kourganist » : I am not an « ...ist » of any kind. Just a curious man.