Race and IQ

[Mzungu mchagga]

Oh, you are killing me guys. There is no argument, except from Reinaert, that there are differences between races in colour of skin, facial features and other easy to spot physical attributes. But somehow it cannot effect the structure of the brain?!
There is also no argument that there are differences in structure of brain between man and woman, and yet we can be equal. Now when it comes to structure of brain between races, then we have a big no no. Because what? It would effect equality between race? Is this the only reason?

Surely the external stimuli are very important to fully develop brain. Close a child in a room with no brain stimulation, just feed it. The final effect will be always a moron, no matter what genetic predisposition the child would have.
Compare apples to apples, yes. But don't jump into conclusions that all people are born clean slate with same abilities.
You all went to schools and you noticed that even though you were from same city district or village, you progressed in school differently. How come? You probably noticed that generally kids of successful, well off parents, were doing much better than kids of parents from so called margins of life. Food was mostly the same for all kids from Europe and North America, air the same, teachers the same, roughly the same environment. But somehow the product was so different. The only logical explanation was the genetics. The smarter kids inherited the better predisposition to do better in school. Mostly a better memory, logical thinking, maybe working harder gens.
Now when it comes to races, of course there is no difference, right?

If you want a real life experiment. Adopt a child from mothers known to belong to poor, disadvantaged families. Raise it and try to mold it the way you are, give it all the advantages. Good luck, you are going to need tons of it!

Once again I have to stress that I believe that all people should be equal, and treated alike. I just can't deny that there are differences among races, that's all.

I'm following what Marianne said, nothing to add!
What makes comparisons between brains of people so difficult is the following: When you are born with a certain skin color you'll keep it all life through, you have no influence on it. When you were born with a long nose, you'll keep it all life through, influence is impossible (never mind surgery...). But with your mind, IQ and emotions, they can change. Actually they can change all the time due to environment and experience of life. Of course there is a certain genetical predetermination in what range the IQ will sway, but the exact point is hard to tell due to merely infinite possibilties that can occur in a life.
And as it is impossible to observe all people in the world under excactly the same living conditions -and the differences in cultures are partly imense- I think it is a little early to present differences in IQs between races as a scientific fact.

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

I agree.

I am one of the 2 people who voted "not sure" in this poll
[...]

I am the other one

 

[Sybilla]

I agree with this. We can't just measure the IQ in Africans and Europeans and conclude.

I also see this within my country when I happen to read studies about IQ differences within the country. People who live in villages don't care about school. They just finish the compulsory 9 years of education and then start working in the fields. They seem to have low IQ, while people living in big cities have a lot higher. But 80% of people living in big cities have parents who come from various Greek villages where the IQ seems to be low. So in this case it is not genetic, it's just that in big cities the majority of kids have 12 years of school and then continue to university.

It can't be that people with the same DNA (within Greece I mean) just happen to become smarter after they move to big cities... They just receive better education than those living in villages who only want to finish school to be able to work at their farms.

I don't know how they conclude the average IQ of each country but if they measure the IQ of people all over Greece for example the average will be lower for the reasons I said above, but this doesn't really reflect how much the IQ of Greeks is.

Same in USA. If they want to compare the IQ of white Americans and black Americans they shouldn't take samples from the ones living in ghettos because the majority is not educated. That is the only way to really see if race and IQ are related...

I also thought that the enviroment can have a big part on it, but then why Mongolians, for exemple, who live in a no-rich country, have one of the highest IQ in the world, even higher than Australians and Irish have one of the lowest of Europe?
Italy has one of the highest IQ in Europe but school here is not that great compared to Germany or France or the USA and many people live in villages also here. Neverthless, Italians are intelligent and when they move abroad they usually are able to open a business with success.
I am not giving conclusions, I am just exposing facts. I'd like to hear your opinions to understand the cause of this difference better.

 

[Sybilla]

@Marianne and how yes no

I have to agree with both of you. It seems that most people here have never heard about the thingy which is called the 'Flynn-Effect'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

I have read the Italian version of it (thank you ), but it seems that the problem is still open becouse:
1) the last tests have demonstered than in some countries the tendence is inverting and that the national IQ is diminishing;
2) it says that the intelligence increases in every country/culture, but does not explain why Asians and Europeans have arrived to have the highest IQ in the world;
3) if a better nutrition were the main cause of the dislivel, I don't understand how countries like Mongolia, Guyana and Uruguay have an high IQ.

 

[Marianne]

I also thought that the enviroment can have a big part on it, but then why Mongolians, for exemple, who live in a no-rich country, have one of the highest IQ in the world, even higher than Australians and Irish have one of the lowest of Europe?
Italy has one of the highest IQ in Europe but school here is not that great compared to Germany or France or the USA and many people live in villages also here. Neverthless, Italians are intelligent and when they move abroad they usually are able to open a business with success.
I am not giving conclusions, I am just exposing facts. I'd like to hear your opinions to understand the cause of this difference better.

These facts make me tend towards the idea that IQ is related to race. But I haven't seen any conclusive research, so I tend to not be 100% sure. I'm fairly certain though that environment can significantly affect IQ.

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

I have read the Italian version of it (thank you ), but it seems that the problem is still open becouse:
1) the last tests have demonstered than in some countries the tendence is inverting and that the national IQ is diminishing;
2) it says that the intelligence increases in every country/culture, but does not explain why Asians and Europeans have arrived to have the highest IQ in the world;
3) if a better nutrition were the main cause of the dislivel, I don't understand how countries like Mongolia, Guyana and Uruguay have an high IQ.

I just wanted to point out that even average IQs of populations are not consistently, as shown in Richard Lynn's studies 'IQ and Global Inequality' [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality ]. That's where your map is from. In fact, according to these studies, the IQ of many developed countries has decreased the last few years. For example the Germans have gotten three IQ points dumber within four years (I can already feel it on myself! ). But this already shows how difficult it is to make a permanent record of IQs. I can hardly believe the skin of the Germans has got lighter or darker within the same range of time for example.

 

[Marianne]

I am the other one

It seems we are the only ones, cause this thread has been here for quite some time...

For a while my vote was the only one :grin:

 

[Michael Folkesson]

I think that we all - in most discussions - try to make any issue at hand simple, and the answer even simpler. We like shortcuts and need simplicity to create a sensible ordered rational and manageable world. But there is also a high level of convenience in the use of simplicity; the KISS approach of projects, or the use of what we call the Occam's razor paradigm. It is a way to get to the bone of things, and a way to put you in the right direction but not how we always want to get to our answers. That is not what our justice system is built on and it is not how we run a country, at least not in a democracy. I think that there is a great level of fallacy in trying to make things simple as it depends on that we have all the facts, but also heavily on our preconceptions and the facts and sources we chose to support our conclusions. It is not necessarily the fat kid who took your candy bar.

I think that research has shown that the history of evolution is quite complex, and when it comes to human development, it is hard to assume our way to our answers. I think that this is a case where we should not keep it simple.

I am not convinced that Africans scores lower in IQ tests because of ethnicity, due to the massive amount of common sub-Saharan environmental factors that may contribute, concerning the correlation between IQ, political unrest, levels of literacy, education and class and non the least, nutrition during the maturation of the brains from newborn to young adult.

But I agree that the scoring of the Chinese is intriguing. They have a very high level of literacy in China though. Can language, culture and the glyhp writing system contribute to a certain way of thinking giving an edge in IQ tests? Is there any substance in the hypothesis that language makes a deep impact in human thinking and a difference regarding the success of a society? Would the Romans have built that long lasting empire and civilization with another language?

The documentary "Guns, germs and steel" claims that geography and disease gave Europe the edge over other people, leading to world domination. Not by our own accords as an ethnic group but because of where we lived.

There are many hypothesis, and I think that there are probably varying amounts of truth to them, or so to speak, most things seem true depending on perspective. Our preconceptions risks contaminating our findings and limit our research area wrongly.

Concerning ethnic diversity, I agree that it is fair to assume that the whole body including the capacity of the brain has been under evolutionary pressure, which was what gave us our mental abilities in the first place. It doesn't necessarily mean that what we popularly call race is what is behind the difference of results. It can be so, but I think we should be wary of making a simple correlation between IQ and physical attributes.

It might be presumptuous, but I think that if one would test the average physical abilities of people in every country, short and long distance running, strength, hearing, eye sight, liver- heart- kidney capacities etc. and compare the results, I think we will likely see differences here and there that one might want to attribute to race or ethnicity.

Dr. Bruce Charlton in the UK claims that poor working class have lower IQ than people from a privileged background. I can't tell if that is true or if it has been replicated, but it seems to fit with the findings of Richard Wilkinson regarding that "Relative Inequality" in a society lies behind much of the representation of criminality and illness in the society; meaning that the level of criminality and illness rises in the bottom layers of society - even if poor people have their basic needs met - if there are great class differences. The bigger the differences, the sicker the society. It seems that there is of great importance for our IQ test results what expectations there is of a person in order to succeed; the environments and our own. The findings seem to give scientific credence or support to classic socialist ideals, that it is not only fair to be express solidarity with the weak but it is in everyones interest - including the wealthy and privileged - to fight class division.

As it seems that all of us with the exception of sub-Saharan Africans, have varied amounts of Neanderthal genes, I think that this can also possibly manifest itself in physical differences between us and those without it; including the brain. As the Neanderthal is truly considered another race, I am not sure how this affects the view of mankind. Some may want to use that fact to divide the world into two quasi races based on genes. I think that this would be a mistake.

I am not definitely saying that any correlation between IQ and race might not be true, but I am saying that I think there are too many environmental factors possibly partly responsible to consider, rendering a race factor as a sole reason in doubt. There are also a couple of world IQ charts, and they seem to differ when compared.

I also think that the importance of IQ seem a bit overrated. A persons IQ level doesn't say anything about that persons level of ambition, self confidence, hopes and dreams. It doesn't say how well they are doing their jobs, how well they get along with people and how they will excel in a certain area. It doesn't show if that person can make a reliable decision during stress, or make a million euro hit song. It only shows that for one reason or another, that person is good at pattern recognition and certain logical conclusions in a written test.

@Sybilla
What is the basis of your assumption that they don't get enough nutrition in Uruguay, Mongolia and Guyana?

 

[LeBrok]

I also think that the importance of IQ seem a bit overrated. A persons IQ level doesn't say anything about that persons level of ambition, self confidence, hopes and dreams. It doesn't say how well they are doing their jobs, how well they get along with people and how they will excel in a certain area. It doesn't show if that person can make a reliable decision during stress, or make a million euro hit song. It only shows that for one reason or another, that person is good at pattern recognition and certain logical conclusions in a written test.
QUOTE]

I totally agree with this, and we all should keep it in mind discussing issues in this tread.

What are your guys opinion on nurture versus nature regarding very high IQ of Ashkenazi Jews? It's been reported in many papers that their IQ might be as high as 115 on average.

 

[Antigone]

I also think that the importance of IQ seem a bit overrated. A persons IQ level doesn't say anything about that persons level of ambition, self confidence, hopes and dreams. It doesn't say how well they are doing their jobs, how well they get along with people and how they will excel in a certain area. It doesn't show if that person can make a reliable decision during stress, or make a million euro hit song. It only shows that for one reason or another, that person is good at pattern recognition and certain logical conclusions in a written test.

Yes excellently put, I think that "written test" is important as not everyone tested is literate or only partly literate at best. IQ tests are only a test of a persons education and not a test of intelligence and shouldn't be relied on as an indication of anything else. Education and intelligence are not the same thing.

 

[Gungnir]

I voted yes. I think when people say that race and intelligence are not related they are being purposely dishonest in an attempt to promote their socio-political agenda. It reminds me of the whole race does not exist crowd.

 

[carlos monzon]

there is no difference
I am a psychology student and have discussed and studied this topic with me peers and lecturers. At the end of the day scientists dont agree on what intelligence is and intelligence can be mean something different in different cultures; also the environmental factors are huge; you got things like socioeconomic status, power, nutrition, stereotypes and test bias all playing major roles.
Race itself is a social construct and people need it to classify themselves, classifying someone based on skin colour isn't gonna make a difference on intelligent, you can classify people as tall and short, or fat and skinny, it doesn't mean that there races;
Also to look further on the matter i suggest some literature such moore (1986), Witty and jenkins 1936 and scarr 1976; also look up Tizard (1972) adn even elfyrth (1967)

 

[LeBrok]

Welcome to eupedia Carlos. Young, romantic and true citizen of the world, aren't you?
What you wrote is exactly what my friend psychiatrist was saying when she finished here schooling. You should listen to her now, after 20 more years looking at the world, lol.
As for me, I'm still shaking my head learning how god screwed up his creation, humans. If I was god I would create people as clean slate, and equal abilities, unfortunately for our kind I'm not.

Ask your professors, how come there are no physical or cognitive differences if for last 100 thousand years races went through different evolutionary paths? Some stayed hunter-gatherers, some became agriculturalists. Some mixed with other hominids like Neanderthals and various derivatives of Homo Erectus, some didn't. Some still hunt in forests, some invent new machines and particle physics.

You see, there shouldn't be a conflict between believing in equality of all humans, and knowing that we are different.

You might ignore it or believe that this way of thinking is stupid, harmful or even racist. Real life proves us otherwise though. Google or listen to info about Inuits or other natives in Canada. You'll find horror stories how bad the situation is in their communities. Lost way of life, traditions, rampant alcoholism and diabetes, just to name few problems. With best effort of western teachers only some can finish high schools, not mentioning universities. And this is after about 100 years of resettlements, western education, teaching the "better" way of life, introduced and implemented by white men on native "primitive" peoples of Canada. Believing that what is good for white man, and was invented in name of progress, is good for all people on this planet. This turned to be a really dumb idea, and natives of Canada are paying a high price now. They are lost in new world, they don't like it, they are unhappy and angry at white man.
Their tragedy is exactly caused by way of thinking of your professors, blindly believing that people are born the same with same cognitive and physical abilities, and like same environmental settings, same way of life. Your professors can be kindest human beings, but they are naive, and this naive romantic kindness harms and kills.

 

[Wilhelm]

There have been experiments with adopted african (or afro-caribbean) children by White parents, in a upper-middle class environment with a good education, and their IQ's came up to be below-average, and similar to their ethnic counterparts, but without ever seting a foot in their ancestor's land. So yes, genetics play a big factor in the IQ of person, not everything is eduaction or environment. Someone also mentioned poor countries like Mongolia, or North-Korea, whith top high IQ's in the world. China is also a poor country, taking in account the per-capita.

 

[Riccardo]

Yes, there is. Look the world avarage IQ map:

There isn't the legend. Why is Italy darker than the rest of Europe?

It means more average IQ or less average IQ? In both cases I don't believe it so much.

 

[Drac]

There isn't the legend. Why is Italy darker than the rest of Europe?

It means more average IQ or less average IQ? In both cases I don't believe it so much.

Even without the legend you can deduce what the colors mean by looking at published average IQ tables. The more blue/violet means the higher the average IQ, the more red the lower the average IQ.

I also don't believe it. Italy has similar average IQ as Germany, Austria and the Netherlands:

http://www.rlynn.co.uk/pages/article_intelligence/t4.asp

So all those countries should be in the same shade as Italy.

 

[LeBrok]

Yes, take these tests/maps as rough approximation.

 

[Antigone]

The colours of the map merely correlate with those countries who have good and not so good educational systems in place, it is in no way an indication of IQ differences. Once again the varying standards in education are being confused with intelligence, the two are not the same.

 

[edao]

The colours of the map merely correlate with those countries who have good and not so good educational systems in place, it is in no way an indication of IQ differences. Once again the varying standards in education are being confused with intelligence, the two are not the same.

The educational standards in South Africa are completely different from say the Ivory coast or Kenya. Yet the colour range for IQ scores for Africa are in the same ball park. How do you explain that?

Cultural differences between each country shows variance of IQ scores but the larger racial groups show general IQ score consistency.

 

[Riccardo]

Even if it's true I think it's really dangerous to generalize...In this way "anybody" can give excuses for discriminations and other dangerous things. And for what I know IQ doesn't say everything about intelligence. So...