Ragnar Lothbrok's dynasty may well have belonged to haplogroup R1a-Z284

Maciamo

Maciamo

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I have checked Ragnar Lothbrok's genealogy to find if he had male line descendants to this day. It would not be surprising considering that he had eight sons and they became powerful rulers of their own. The main issue is that the genealogy is disputed. If enough Y-DNA lines survived, it would be possible to confirm the genealogy by triangulating the various Y-DNA haplotypes.

Don't be fooled by the series Vikings. Ragnar did not start life as a farmer whose fortune rose after he found a way to navigate to England. He was the son of (semi-legendary) King Sigurd Ring of Denmark and Sweden, himself said to be the son and grandson of other kings of Sweden or Denmark.


The most promising lead comes from the Uí Ímair dynasty, said to have been founded by Ivar the Boneless (Ragnar's 3rd or 4th son), although according to Geneanet's genealogy it was founded by Halfdan Ragnarsson (known as Hvitserk in the TV series), who were both at some point kings of Dublin. In any case, they had the same Y-DNA. One of this dynasty's cadet branches is Clann Somhairle (Clan Donald and Clan MacDougall), which have already been confirmed to belong to R1a-Z284>L448>YP280 (actually Somerled is said to correspond to YP326 further downstream, but YP280 was formed 1500 years ago and appears to be the marker that separates the Scandinavian branch from the British Isles, so most likely Ragnar Lothbrok's original lineage, if indeed it is his Y-DNA).

Clan MacLeod is said to have been founded by the younger son of Olaf the Black, King of the Isles, who belonged to the Crovan dynasty. This dynasty is also an offshoot of Uí Ímair and therefore should have the same Y-DNA. Surely enough the MacLeod Y-DNA Project has over 20 members belonging to R1a-Z284>L448, and some are confirmed for the YP280 subclade.

Other lines may not have known descendants to this day but remain historically important. Knowing Ragnar Lothbrok's Y-DNA would also include the following royal lines.

Ragnar's eldest son, Björn Ironside inherited the title of King of Sweden and his descendants kept that title until Emund the Old's death circa 1060.

Ragnar's second or third son Sigurd II "Snake-in-the-Eye", King of Denmark, who was supposedly the father of Harthacnut I of Denmark of the House of Knýtlinga. The most famous member of that house is King Cnut the Great of England, Denmark and Norway.
 
Maciamo said:
I have checked Ragnar Lothbrok's genealogy to find if he had male line descendants to this day. It would not be surprising considering that he had eight sons and they became powerful rulers of their own. The main issue is that the genealogy is disputed. If enough Y-DNA lines survived, it would be possible to confirm the genealogy by triangulating the various Y-DNA haplotypes.

Don't be fooled by the series Vikings. Ragnar did not start life as a farmer whose fortune rose after he found a way to navigate to England. He was the son of (semi-legendary) King Sigurd Ring of Denmark and Sweden, himself said to be the son and grandson of other kings of Sweden or Denmark.


The most promising lead comes from the Uí Ímair dynasty, said to have been founded by Ivar the Boneless (Ragnar's 3rd or 4th son), although according to Geneanet's genealogy it was founded by Halfdan Ragnarsson (known as Hvitserk in the TV series), who were both at some point kings of Dublin. In any case, they had the same Y-DNA. One of this dynasty's cadet branches is Clann Somhairle (Clan Donald and Clan MacDougall), which have already been confirmed to belong to R1a-Z284>L448>YP280 (actually Somerled is said to correspond to YP326 further downstream, but YP280 was formed 1500 years ago and appears to be the marker that separates the Scandinavian branch from the British Isles, so most likely Ragnar Lothbrok's original lineage, if indeed it is his Y-DNA).

Clan MacLeod is said to have been founded by the younger son of Olaf the Black, King of the Isles, who belonged to the Crovan dynasty. This dynasty is also an offshoot of Uí Ímair and therefore should have the same Y-DNA. Surely enough the MacLeod Y-DNA Project has over 20 members belonging to R1a-Z284>L448, and some are confirmed for the YP280 subclade.

Other lines may not have known descendants to this day but remain historically important. Knowing Ragnar Lothbrok's Y-DNA would also include the following royal lines.

Ragnar's eldest son, Björn Ironside inherited the title of King of Sweden and his descendants kept that title until Emund the Old's death circa 1060.

Ragnar's second or third son Sigurd II "Snake-in-the-Eye", King of Denmark, who was supposedly the father of Harthacnut I of Denmark of the House of Knýtlinga. The most famous member of that house is King Cnut the Great of England, Denmark and Norway.
Click to expand...
The lines sucess in the last 1300 years is plastered all over the yfull tree as noticable in the relatively recent diversification.

Makes one think, who was Lothar for some of the other lines that mirror this in the Iron Age and Bronze Age, or even deeper. Probably those Lothars are lost in history, with yfull the only proof of their existence.
 
Maciamo said:
I have checked Ragnar Lothbrok's genealogy to find if he had male line descendants to this day. It would not be surprising considering that he had eight sons and they became powerful rulers of their own. The main issue is that the genealogy is disputed. If enough Y-DNA lines survived, it would be possible to confirm the genealogy by triangulating the various Y-DNA haplotypes.

Don't be fooled by the series Vikings. Ragnar did not start life as a farmer whose fortune rose after he found a way to navigate to England. He was the son of (semi-legendary) King Sigurd Ring of Denmark and Sweden, himself said to be the son and grandson of other kings of Sweden or Denmark.


The most promising lead comes from the Uí Ímair dynasty, said to have been founded by Ivar the Boneless (Ragnar's 3rd or 4th son), although according to Geneanet's genealogy it was founded by Halfdan Ragnarsson (known as Hvitserk in the TV series), who were both at some point kings of Dublin. In any case, they had the same Y-DNA. One of this dynasty's cadet branches is Clann Somhairle (Clan Donald and Clan MacDougall), which have already been confirmed to belong to R1a-Z284>L448>YP280 (actually Somerled is said to correspond to YP326 further downstream, but YP280 was formed 1500 years ago and appears to be the marker that separates the Scandinavian branch from the British Isles, so most likely Ragnar Lothbrok's original lineage, if indeed it is his Y-DNA).

Clan MacLeod is said to have been founded by the younger son of Olaf the Black, King of the Isles, who belonged to the Crovan dynasty. This dynasty is also an offshoot of Uí Ímair and therefore should have the same Y-DNA. Surely enough the MacLeod Y-DNA Project has over 20 members belonging to R1a-Z284>L448, and some are confirmed for the YP280 subclade.

Other lines may not have known descendants to this day but remain historically important. Knowing Ragnar Lothbrok's Y-DNA would also include the following royal lines.

Ragnar's eldest son, Björn Ironside inherited the title of King of Sweden and his descendants kept that title until Emund the Old's death circa 1060.

Ragnar's second or third son Sigurd II "Snake-in-the-Eye", King of Denmark, who was supposedly the father of Harthacnut I of Denmark of the House of Knýtlinga. The most famous member of that house is King Cnut the Great of England, Denmark and Norway.
Click to expand...


What about Rollo ...........was that Ragnar brother, cousin or nothing .....................if brother , his line is in normandy
 
… maybe unrelated, … I have Rollo relatives in my town (2 miles from Lecce), and I had unrelated Rollo classmates.

XFWcQ8J.jpg


https://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/ROLLO/PUGLIA
 
Ragnar / Ragno (Spider) … symbol of Salento, … there you go :) lol
 
Another thing the series got wrong. Rollo was not Ragnar's brother or even relative. In fact that Rollo (v. 860-930) who became Count of Rouen was born over 100 years after Ragnar Lothbrok (755-845).
 
Nice! So Z284 may be strongly associated with Viking voyages.
 
Maciamo said:
Another thing the series got wrong. Rollo was not Ragnar's brother or even relative. In fact that Rollo (v. 860-930) who became Count of Rouen was born over 100 years after Ragnar Lothbrok (755-845).
Click to expand...

They did it intentionally, for cinematic reasons. To add more depth to Ragnar's story.
 
Tomenable said:
Nice! So Z284 may be strongly associated with Viking voyages.
Click to expand...

There is no doubt about that. There is 23% of R1a in Iceland (much more than in Sweden or Denmark and about the same as Norway) and most of it is Z284.
 
Maciamo said:
I have checked Ragnar Lothbrok's genealogy to find if he had male line descendants to this day. It would not be surprising considering that he had eight sons and they became powerful rulers of their own. The main issue is that the genealogy is disputed. If enough Y-DNA lines survived, it would be possible to confirm the genealogy by triangulating the various Y-DNA haplotypes.

Don't be fooled by the series Vikings. Ragnar did not start life as a farmer whose fortune rose after he found a way to navigate to England. He was the son of (semi-legendary) King Sigurd Ring of Denmark and Sweden, himself said to be the son and grandson of other kings of Sweden or Denmark.


The most promising lead comes from the Uí Ímair dynasty, said to have been founded by Ivar the Boneless (Ragnar's 3rd or 4th son), although according to Geneanet's genealogy it was founded by Halfdan Ragnarsson (known as Hvitserk in the TV series), who were both at some point kings of Dublin. In any case, they had the same Y-DNA. One of this dynasty's cadet branches is Clann Somhairle (Clan Donald and Clan MacDougall), which have already been confirmed to belong to R1a-Z284>L448>YP280 (actually Somerled is said to correspond to YP326 further downstream, but YP280 was formed 1500 years ago and appears to be the marker that separates the Scandinavian branch from the British Isles, so most likely Ragnar Lothbrok's original lineage, if indeed it is his Y-DNA).

Clan MacLeod is said to have been founded by the younger son of Olaf the Black, King of the Isles, who belonged to the Crovan dynasty. This dynasty is also an offshoot of Uí Ímair and therefore should have the same Y-DNA. Surely enough the MacLeod Y-DNA Project has over 20 members belonging to R1a-Z284>L448, and some are confirmed for the YP280 subclade.

Other lines may not have known descendants to this day but remain historically important. Knowing Ragnar Lothbrok's Y-DNA would also include the following royal lines.

Ragnar's eldest son, Björn Ironside inherited the title of King of Sweden and his descendants kept that title until Emund the Old's death circa 1060.

Ragnar's second or third son Sigurd II "Snake-in-the-Eye", King of Denmark, who was supposedly the father of Harthacnut I of Denmark of the House of Knýtlinga. The most famous member of that house is King Cnut the Great of England, Denmark and Norway.
Click to expand...

https://www.geni.com/discussions/160108

Clann Somerled is maternal descendants of Dynasty of Ivar.

''More recently, historian Alex Woolf has pointed out the conflicting information found in the different versions of the pedigree, and drawn attention to their faulty chronology. Instead he argues that these pedigrees may derive from an original claim to the descent of Somerled from the Crovan dynasty and the Uí Ímair, subsequently obscured by alterations made to link them to the Scottish and Irish foundation legends.[2] In any case, the Clann Somhairle based their claim to the Isles on their descent from Somerled's wife, Ragnhildr, the daughter of king Amlaíb Derg, and Woolf accepts that the male-line Crovan descent claim underlying the pedigrees may have arisen as a replacement for this female-line derivation from the family. Sir Iain Moncreiffe attempted to reconstruct a male line descent from Somerled back to Echmarcach mac Ragnaill, King of the Isles,[3] but this has received little attention.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clann_Somhairle
 
In 2011, DNA tests were performed on a sample of 45 men with the surname MacLeod; 47% were found to share a common ancestor in the male line (the remaining 53% of the sample contained 9 different genetic male line lineages). The genetic marker of the 47%-lineage was found to be the S68 branch of Haplogroup R1b. This marker is found not only in the Western Isles, but also in Orkney, Shetland, England, Norway, and Sweden. In consequence, the study concluded that the genetic origin of Clan MacLeod likely lies in Scandinavia.[32]
 
L448 is hardly the only Z284 subclade in the Isles or elsewhere.

Between available options in the R-S4458 subclade from R-Z284, my R-BY30613 subclade from R-S6285 is more likely closer to Ragnar--perhaps through Björn Ironside--than those R-L448 by Somerled in Scotland from Norway, but it is possible mine is associated with the House of Estridsen, also founded by a man named Björn. I have a Danelaw surname from a manor originally spelled Swedish in the North Riding of Jórvík owned by a man with an Old Swedish name who also owned another Viking manor in the East Riding earlier between 1066-1086, recorded by the Domesday Book.

Despite this Swedish onomastic evidence seen with the same forename--and father Björn--on a Christian runestone near Gamla Uppsala and Crusader parish records in Swedish Finland, another subclade than my own of R-BY30613 has one hit in Southern Denmark near Jelling as well as found amongst other English surnames. R-S6285 subclades appear to originate with Götaland and radiate in different directions: R-BY30613 from Skåneland towards Denmark and the Danelaw; R-YP6270 from Västergötland to Denmark and the Trøndelag; R-YP4638 from Östergötland towards Finland and Warsaw.
 
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Somerled's YDNA certainly appears to have been R-YP326 . Based on the phylogeny , his lineage seems to have come straight from Norway to the Hebrides and missed out the Northern Isles entirely in terms of settlement . His closest Norwegian matches (under YP330) are found in More og Romsdal on the west coast and in more southern areas around lakes Mjosa and Randsfjorden. His lineage has left no trace on the Isle of Man , which is problematic if he is Ui Imair , as that is where they were active and left descendant rulers. And it is also problematic for the clan Donald traditions that said his family came from Ireland as exiles, again where the Ui Imair were very active . There is no evidence for this in his YDNA . I suspect his lineage arrived in the Hebrides between 850-950 AD when there is the first identifiable archaeological evidence of Norse burials and material culture in the region , and gradually built up a power base there .

Early sources point to the Clann Somhairle connections to Ui imair as being crucial in establishing their legitimacy over the Isles , but it seems to me this connection is via Ragnhild, Somerled's wife , not through the paternal line . However , in praise poems to his immediate descendants , it mentions them as descending from a Gofraid (Godred Crovan , via Ragnhild , in all probability) but also an Olaf the White . This could mean the Ui Imair dynast Olaf Konungr , a distant ancestor of Ragnhild , but also perhaps related to Somerled himself .

There exists a lineage on Man also under R1a-Z284 , but under the big Z287 branch instead , which is again clearly Norwegian in origin . This may represent the Ui Imair , or another branch of it , but there is no documentary evidence linking these modern samples to the kings of Man , whereas there is abundant evidence connecting modern branches of Clans MacDonald , MacDougall and McKane etc to a common R-YP326 ancestor , Somerled.

of Man , unlike .
 
Bernicia said:
Somerled's YDNA certainly appears to have been R-YP326 . Based on the phylogeny , his lineage seems to have come straight from Norway to the Hebrides and missed out the Northern Isles entirely in terms of settlement . His closest Norwegian matches (under YP330) are found in More og Romsdal on the west coast and in more southern areas around lakes Mjosa and Randsfjorden. His lineage has left no trace on the Isle of Man , which is problematic if he is Ui Imair , as that is where they were active and left descendant rulers. And it is also problematic for the clan Donald traditions that said his family came from Ireland as exiles, again where the Ui Imair were very active . There is no evidence for this in his YDNA . I suspect his lineage arrived in the Hebrides between 850-950 AD when there is the first identifiable archaeological evidence of Norse burials and material culture in the region , and gradually built up a power base there .

Early sources point to the Clann Somhairle connections to Ui imair as being crucial in establishing their legitimacy over the Isles , but it seems to me this connection is via Ragnhild, Somerled's wife , not through the paternal line . However , in praise poems to his immediate descendants , it mentions them as descending from a Gofraid (Godred Crovan , via Ragnhild , in all probability) but also an Olaf the White . This could mean the Ui Imair dynast Olaf Konungr , a distant ancestor of Ragnhild , but also perhaps related to Somerled himself .

There exists a lineage on Man also under R1a-Z284 , but under the big Z287 branch instead , which is again clearly Norwegian in origin . This may represent the Ui Imair , or another branch of it , but there is no documentary evidence linking these modern samples to the kings of Man , whereas there is abundant evidence connecting modern branches of Clans MacDonald , MacDougall and McKane etc to a common R-YP326 ancestor , Somerled.

of Man , unlike .
Click to expand...

As far as I know there is no Y-DNA result of Early Scandinavian Dynasties . I curious that Y-DNA of Munsö, Stenkil, Estridsen, Fairhair, Gorm, Hardrada...
 
There are seemingly three main branches of North Germanic R1a in the North Atlantic, which may be broadened by going to higher clades or narrowed by focusing on lower subclades, but this is a generic layout:



L448 in Norway, the Isles and Iceland.


S6285 in Sweden, Northumbria and Ireland.


L664 in Denmark, the Danelaw and Wessex.



As you can see, Z284 is clearly from the Scandinavian peninsula and spread to the Celtic fringe, whereas L664 is from Jutland and spread to England, with the Humber or Trent good for dividing these two R1a subclades. It looks like the main difference between Norwegian and Swedish subclades of Z284 is their settlement patterns, via the Norwegian Sea or North Sea. Swedish orientation shared the latter with Danish geography, but were much closer to the Norwegian by kinship, i.e. the two largest metropolitan communities of R1a happen to be Trøndheim and Oslo, with Norway the most R1a Scandinavian country, the Faroes the most R1a dependency thereof. That is because the West Coast of Sweden was populated by Norwegians under Danish rule, before the 17th century, when the Swedes conquered this land and taxed its people, then invaded and took over Norway itself from the Danes, along with Scania that had a Danish population.



I use Sweden, Swede or Swedish anachronistically before the 17th century, for convenience in referencing those lands now part of Sweden, but belonged to Norway and Denmark by virtue of Norwegians and Danes living there, under the protection of their governments, whatever has become of them since. That is to say, Z284 is Norse and L664 is Danish, so I repeat that the main differences in Z284 were geographical origin and colonial dispersal.
 
Maciamo said:
I have checked Ragnar Lothbrok's genealogy to find if he had male line descendants to this day. It would not be surprising considering that he had eight sons and they became powerful rulers of their own. The main issue is that the genealogy is disputed. If enough Y-DNA lines survived, it would be possible to confirm the genealogy by triangulating the various Y-DNA haplotypes.

Don't be fooled by the series Vikings. Ragnar did not start life as a farmer whose fortune rose after he found a way to navigate to England. He was the son of (semi-legendary) King Sigurd Ring of Denmark and Sweden, himself said to be the son and grandson of other kings of Sweden or Denmark.


The most promising lead comes from the Uí Ímair dynasty, said to have been founded by Ivar the Boneless (Ragnar's 3rd or 4th son), although according to Geneanet's genealogy it was founded by Halfdan Ragnarsson (known as Hvitserk in the TV series), who were both at some point kings of Dublin. In any case, they had the same Y-DNA. One of this dynasty's cadet branches is Clann Somhairle (Clan Donald and Clan MacDougall), which have already been confirmed to belong to R1a-Z284>L448>YP280 (actually Somerled is said to correspond to YP326 further downstream, but YP280 was formed 1500 years ago and appears to be the marker that separates the Scandinavian branch from the British Isles, so most likely Ragnar Lothbrok's original lineage, if indeed it is his Y-DNA).

Clan MacLeod is said to have been founded by the younger son of Olaf the Black, King of the Isles, who belonged to the Crovan dynasty. This dynasty is also an offshoot of Uí Ímair and therefore should have the same Y-DNA. Surely enough the MacLeod Y-DNA Project has over 20 members belonging to R1a-Z284>L448, and some are confirmed for the YP280 subclade.

Other lines may not have known descendants to this day but remain historically important. Knowing Ragnar Lothbrok's Y-DNA would also include the following royal lines.

Ragnar's eldest son, Björn Ironside inherited the title of King of Sweden and his descendants kept that title until Emund the Old's death circa 1060.

Ragnar's second or third son Sigurd II "Snake-in-the-Eye", King of Denmark, who was supposedly the father of Harthacnut I of Denmark of the House of Knýtlinga. The most famous member of that house is King Cnut the Great of England, Denmark and Norway.
Click to expand...
Hello Maciamo, I am a late arrival to this forum. I am intrigued by the possibility that the R-YP280 haplogroup might be connected to the Ui Imair. Indeed R-YP280 is present in the y chromosome signatures of Somerled R-YP326 descendants (ie: the chiefly line of the Clan Donald, certain R1a lines of the Clan MacDougall, et al). In addition R-YP280 is present in its R-YP4489 descendants, notably the R1a lines of the Clan MacLeod and Clan MacAskill. And thirdly, it is present in R-YP507 Scots men of various clans (ie: McIntoshes of Inverness; R1a MacNeils of Barra; R1a MacInnes; R1a MacIntyres of Barra; et al of various western Scotland and Hebrides islands). I have seen a conjectural tree by Sir Iain Moncreiffe in his 1967 book "The Highland Clans" which speculates a possible line of descent from "Echmarcach" down to Somerled. A similar tree presented by Mike Ashley in his Mammoth Book of British Kings & Queens (2000) shows descent from "Margad" down to Somerled. The problem with both trees is an assumed and unsourced link between Somerled's father Gillebride & grandfather Gilleadomnan to Echamarcach / Margad. I have been searching for any possible citations which might establish such a link, but so far all indications seem to be that there are none. Grateful if you might be able to point me in the direction of any additional materials, readings, texts which I might be able to consult on this topic. Regards.
 
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