Rakhigarhi: DNA study finds no Central Asian trace, junks Aryan invasion theory

[arcsabre]

"Well, my friend, it is actually and exactly the opposite: if the Rakhigarhi DNA study finds NO Central Asian-derived ancestry in the samples of those IVC sites, that fact actually REINFORCES and DEMONSTRATES the high plausibility of the Aryan migration/invasion theory."
"Well, well, well, if the IVC lacked Central Asian ancestry, but modern Indians and particularly modern NORTH INDO-ARYAN-SPEAKING Indians have Central Asian ancestry, what do you think unbiased scientists with no nationalist or xenophobic agendas will have to conclude? "

They probably will have to conclude based on available archaeological and genetic evidence, that steppe migrants came in a small number and managed to incorporate themselves into an existing Harappan type society (which makes sense because Harappans had knowledge of urbanism), creating a composite culture that is predominantly Harappan in nature with a few steppe elements. Further that the steppe migrants managed to become part of the upper echelons of such a society hence their genes became widespread
What you're doing here is no different than what you're accusing others of doing - labeling them the bad guys just because their results dont agree with what you want. Shinde has authored with several international teams before and he is as trustworthy as anyone else

 

[Angela]

Gentlemen, the bottom line is that no one expected there to be steppe ancestry in India this early (Harappa), so the fact the scientists found none is irrelevant as to whether there was migration from the steppe via Central Asia into India.

Let's see what the newest finds, those in a chariot context, show.

The point is that in densely populated, culturally sophisticated areas, the impact of such migrations is not going to be the same as it was in mostly empty northern Europe or even a Central Europe suffering from population crashes and decimated by the plague brought by the steppe people.

Look at the Mycenaeans, long heralded as THE Indo-European culture. Their steppe ancestry is very minor despite all the predictions they'd be Sintashta like, of all things.

Whatever the data shows, it has to be accommodated.

 

[Ygorcs]

What do you guys think? :indifferent:
The answer is quite simple really.
1. The Vedic civilization was largely a continuation of the Harappan. Not surprising - archaeologists have been saying that for decades
2. There was possibly a minor indo-european genetic influx
3. There was NO signs of invasion or forceful upturn of culture - again something said by most mainstream archaeologists
4. Harappans were a mixture of indigenous people and a few Levant area migrants

I beg to differ. Harappans were mainly a mixture of Neolithic Iranian migrants with indigenous South Asians, though there were most probably also other minor contributions, including from the Levant. But still it seems quite a "coincidence" that Indo-European language only appears in South Asia after this "minor Indo-European genetic influx" you talk about in your 2nd point (even the IVC script could never be transcripted on the basis of IE or more specifically Indo-Aryan lexicon and sentences). Not only that, the IE branch that appears there is not some archaic and very distinctive IE family like Anatolian, but one significantly related to other "late" IE branches much to the northwest (mainly Armenian, Hellenic and Balto-Slavic) without any noticeable trace of a Bronze Age South Asian genetic influx into those regions, whereas there is growing evidence of a steppe influx into South Asia.

So, I think Indians and other South Asians will have to come to grapples with the basic fact that genetics, linguistics and material culture don't always come together into the same package, with perfect correlation with each other. It's perfectly possible, even probable that despite a remarkable cultural continuity in material objects there was a minor but socioculturally significant influx of foreigners into South Asia, one that was influential enough to cause a gradual but steady expansion of an Indo-European language there. Native people don't "disappear" suddenly just because they shifted their language.

 

[Ygorcs]

"Well, my friend, it is actually and exactly the opposite: if the Rakhigarhi DNA study finds NO Central Asian-derived ancestry in the samples of those IVC sites, that fact actually REINFORCES and DEMONSTRATES the high plausibility of the Aryan migration/invasion theory."
"Well, well, well, if the IVC lacked Central Asian ancestry, but modern Indians and particularly modern NORTH INDO-ARYAN-SPEAKING Indians have Central Asian ancestry, what do you think unbiased scientists with no nationalist or xenophobic agendas will have to conclude? "

They probably will have to conclude based on available archaeological and genetic evidence, that steppe migrants came in a small number and managed to incorporate themselves into an existing Harappan type society (which makes sense because Harappans had knowledge of urbanism), creating a composite culture that is predominantly Harappan in nature with a few steppe elements. Further that the steppe migrants managed to become part of the upper echelons of such a society hence their genes became widespread
What you're doing here is no different than what you're accusing others of doing - labeling them the bad guys just because their results dont agree with what you want. Shinde has authored with several international teams before and he is as trustworthy as anyone else

No, it is not, especially because you may have failed to notice it, but my personal opinion on this subject is exactly what you yourself said: "steppe migrants came in a small number and managed to incorporate themselves into an existing Harappan type society (which makes sense because Harappans had knowledge of urbanism), creating a composite culture that is predominantly Harappan in nature with a few steppe elements. Further that the steppe migrants managed to become part of the upper echelons of such a society hence their genes became widespread"

In my opinion, it is clear that there was very significant genetic and cultural continuity in India before and after the IVC, and that the steppe migrants probably brought their new layer of culture and genes only after the declining phase of the IVC. However, to say that there was a significant continuity doesn't mean that things stayed the same.

If you don't take into account only the Indian part of this story, but all the Indo-European expansion (which clearly points to a northwestern root, not a southeastern one), and the very "late" nature of the IE spoken widely in South Asia, it becomes clear to anyone, but nationalists or ethnocentrists, that Indian culture is to a relevant degree indigenous, but also decisively mixed with some foreign elements, and that the Indo-European languages came with one of the most influential of these migrations. They may have been originally a very small part of the population and, therefore, basically absorbed a lot from their more numerous neighbors, but managed to preserve and expand their own cultural traits (language, most of all) as well as their genetics after some centuries, by becoming politically and militarily dominant in most of South Asia. Believe it or not, it is not just totally possible, but almost certain that most Northern Indians descend in part both from Harappan ancestors and Central Asian steppe migrants, and still from other ancient populatons, too. There is no mutual exclusivity in paleogenetics.