AlexImreh
Regular Member
tags - Beaker, Butmir, I2a1, Neolithic migration, Nuragic, Sardinia, Sea Peoples, Vinca - aleximreh.ro
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As it is my first post in this forum I can not put a direct link, so I repeat the link with the article/arguments - aleximreh.ro
The text at the link contains mostly excerpts from wiki, with maps found with google search and with haplo data from Eupedia. It is more a resume of my reading, with a few ideas that came to me after reading many articles the last few years. It is only a hobby, I am not doing academic research, but I felt the need to discuss with people that are passionate on these things. So a few ideas -
1]After the Last Ice Age most of Europe was I1,2.
2]Old Europe, Cardium Culture and Western Europe had I1,I2 as dominant substratum into which neolithic farmers J2,E1&G inserted.
3]Oldest bronze items were discovered in Vinca area, where I2a1 concentration is highest.
1]Farming came to Old Europe from Middle East through J2+E1+G haplos resulting Old Europe with 2 epicenters in Vinca & Cucueni areas.
#6.000-4000bc, J2+E1+G neolithic famers go fromE to Wand S to N, to spread farming in Europe, coming from Middle East, along the Danube and by sea.
# 1200bc -R1b Dorians are pushed south by Illyrians, end of Mycene & Crete, end of all Middle East empires. End of Bronze Age, start of Iron Age and start of Bronze Age collapse.
# around 700bc the Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration from the Pontic Steppe. They push into Anatolia and later into Pannonia. By that time the Pontic Caspian steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people.
#700bc – Starting with the Cimmerians, the tide changes again, from now on there will be waves only from E to W – R1a Scytians, the Big Hun tsunami that will be the beginning of the End for the Roman Empire, the Goths that will bring the Second Dark Age and so on, Avars, Magyars, Mongols, Slavs (N to S), Turkish peoples…
Well that's a good point!!
A quote from adamo/eupedia: Haplogroup I-M26, the "Sardinian" I2a variety, is found in 40-45% of Sardinian males for example; most people do not realize it is also about 19-20% of Spanish Castillan male lineages in Central Spain. In fact, the very center of Spain, the countries nucleus has a high of 33% hg I. Most of portugal has 5-10% hg I. But Spain has 10-30% I across most of the country. This means that these men certainly moved from southeastern Europe towards Central Europeans then to Iberia from where they arrived in Sardinia. According to neolithic expansion maps, I2 expansion to Spain was by sea through Sardinia.
and sparkey/eupedia: The days of supposing an I2-M26 origin in Sardinia are over; it's clearly a founder effect there. Iberia has significant diversity, considering that the most common subclade (L160+) has high diversity there, and an outlier (L277+ L247+) is found there. See Cullen. That could indicate that most modern I2-M26 passed through Iberia, at least northeastern Iberia near the Pyrenees. However, it's worth noting that the greatest I2-M26 outlier is in fact German, as is a cousin of the Iberian outlier, indicating that before arriving in Iberia, it was indeed in or around Germany, or at least expanded that direction as well between the end of the Ice Age and the beginning of the Neolithic.
adamo again: That is correct. It actually seems to have arrived in central Spain (Castile) where 33% of males are I, and 20% of it is I-M26 like in 40-45% of Sardinians.About 10% of spaniards are I on a national level though. It probably migrated from the Balkans to Central Europe a very long time ago. From there, it would move towards central Iberia. From here it somehow reached Sardinia.
So how 'new' is I2-M26? Link >> i-m26POINTblogspotPOINTro << According to most theories, Haplogroup I is associated with Gravettian culture. The western Gravettians were responsible for the cave paintings at Lascaux, and other sites in France. I-M26’s Overlay with the Distribution of Megaliths. Conclusion It is likely that small groups of megalithic mariners influenced greatly the religious, political, cultural (and physical) landscape of the lands to which they ventured during the Neolithic. M26 is a strong candidate for the marker of a “single population of colonizers, navigators and cultivators” (Cavalli-Sforza 1995) which likely originated somewhere in the vicinity of the Pyrenees shortly after the LGM. As Cavalli-Sforza noted, “the Megalithics may have even been a priesthood or some kind of prehistorical aristocracy, who had good ships and perhaps good weaponry, as well as a much more advanced understanding of astronomy and architecture than their contemporaries.”
So it looks that I2 arrived to Sardinia from W of Europe but still farming arrived to Sardinia either directly from the Middle East by sea through Sicily, either by sea via Vinca/Croatia. According to wiki there are copper object on the island before 2000bc, so we still have a good logic in saying that farming and copper arrived to the island via Vinca?
wiki on <Sardinian people> : Sardinia was first colonised in Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic from Iberian and Italian peninsulas, during the Neolithic from Italy, Spain and Aegean [farming], during the Early Bronze Age by Beaker folk from Central Europe and Franco-Iberian area [bronze technology].
So all in all it looks that the Vinca-Sardinia link is just rubbish?
I see however a contradiction here - if I2-M26 is NEW than what kind of people were the first colonizers in Upper Paleolithic? All this discussion could be a good debate to analyse the Alinei continuity theory. According to my instincts/wishful thinking, I do like/believe in the Alinei continuity theory which says that basic/dominant layers do change slowly, that we did not have great population changes during the last few thousands of years. Usually we just have invasions by warriors that military conquered certain areas, than ruled maybe as aristocracies and in certain cases imposed cultural changes, new languages. But in most cases these invaders were always small in number and they were most of the time absorbed genetically by locals, sometimes as they were the rulers and as they had many wives they did changed significantly the haplo percentages..
And also this case could be a good case to ask: after last Ice Age Europe was almost empty, it was recolonized with I2,I1 from a few pockets of resistance. The question for me is from where arrived the first I2 people to western Europe? There was an I2 source in W Europe/Spain or the first I2 people arrived to Spain from Danubian/Carpathian area?
I2-M26=I2a1a is still a subclade of I2a1 which is typical for Vinca area. So I2a1 arrived to Western Europe from Vinca area than much later the I2a1a branch arrived to Sardinia from Spain? What kind of I2a carried the Gothic invasion that came also from the lower Danube area?
Sa again how old is the Sardinian I2a1a? familytreedna - I2a Project - Results ..
wiki I-M170: a quick look here, (maybe superficial) tells me that I2 spread from Vinca to all Europe, from 22.000bc on. to the north of Black Sea and to Italy ie the expansion of Graevitian Culture. The second map there, in red implies a direct expansion from Vinca area to Sardinia through Central Italy... The distribution of M26 also mirrors that of the Atlantic Bronze age cultures, which indicates a potential spread via the obsidian trade or a regular maritime exchange of some of metallurgical products.
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