Sardinian Genetics

[Angela]

Good grief! It took two years for this to be published?

Here is our thread on the preprint:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33237-Population-History-of-Sardinia?highlight=Sardinian

Here is the link to the official paper published today:

W.K. Chiang et al
"Genomic History of the Sardinian Population"

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-018-0215-8

"The population of the Mediterranean island of Sardinia has made important contributions to genome-wide association studies of complex disease traits and, based on ancient DNA studies of mainland Europe, Sardinia is hypothesized to be a unique refuge for early Neolithic ancestry. To provide new insights on the genetic history of this flagship population, we analyzed 3,514 whole-genome sequenced individuals from Sardinia. Sardinian samples show elevated levels of shared ancestry with Basque individuals, especially samples from the more historically isolated regions of Sardinia. Our analysis also uniquely illuminates how levels of genetic similarity with mainland ancient DNA samples varies subtly across the island. Together, our results indicate that within-island substructure and sex-biased processes have substantially impacted the genetic history of Sardinia. These results give new insight into the demography of ancestral Sardinians and help further the understanding of sharing of disease risk alleles between Sardinia and mainland populations."

Annoyingly, it's behind a pay wall. If anyone has access it would be interesting to see if there have been important changes.

 

[Angela]

Chiang has made the entire paper available. After a quick skim there doesn't seem to be much substantive change.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41...NsTWDsHwCVhA9SIV60FGYsxedL6SaA0LXgE7RJ0fP5A==

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[Angela]

From Chiang:
"We find that the province of Ogliastra and the surrounding Gennargentu Massif to be historically isolated. Compared to individuals outside of Ogliastra, They showed no detectable signal of admixture, higher proportion of pre-Neolithic ancestry."


If we want to know what these Neolithic people with a bigger chunk of WHG (so, closer to MN than Stuttgart), I guess we'd have to look at Arzana, Ilbona and maybe Lanusei and Villagrande

These are teenagers from Arzana. I don't know their genealogy, but I don't think all that many mainlanders would make it there. Five of them look generally Italian, but the three to the left emphatically don't.

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107 yr. old woman from Arzana. To me, her forehead, eyes, and cheekbones remind me of Otzi.

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Ilbono...maybe more Spanish than Italian, only darker?

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Lanusei starts to look different already except for the lead singer. Tenores from Lanusei:

 

[davef]

From Chiang:
"We find that the province of Ogliastra and the surrounding Gennargentu Massif to be historically isolated. Compared to individuals outside of Ogliastra, They showed no detectable signal of admixture, higher proportion of pre-Neolithic ancestry."


If we want to know what these Neolithic people with a bigger chunk of WHG (so, closer to MN than Stuttgart), I guess we'd have to look at Arzana, Ilbona and maybe Lanusei and Villagrande

These are teenagers from Arzana. I don't know their genealogy, but I don't think all that many mainlanders would make it there. Five of them look generally Italian, but the three to the left emphatically don't.

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Those two teens all the way to the left look really unique. Can those looks be found anywhere else in Europe?

 

[berun]

It seems so hard to think a little before to write a paper? if the island was much or less colonized by Phoenicians (with CHG genes)... an admixture graph will plot such autosomal portion to Yamna...?

 

[Pygmalion]

Phoenician was still spoken in some parts of Sardinia well into the 2nd century AD, see for example the punic inscriptions from Bithia that date to the time of Marcus Aurelius.
Of course if we're talking about Ogliastra and the region around Nuoro the situation there was much different, it was barely touched by punic colonization.
However saying it was "historically isolated" can be easily misinterpreted. Eastern Mediterranean and mycenaean artifacts arrived there since the bronze age. Some nuragic sanctuaries there yielded very old levantine and phoenician materials, see for example the S'arcu E Is Forros inscription which is one of the oldest inscriptions found in the Western Mediterranean to be written in the phoenician alphabet (though some interpret it as philistine):

.
In imperial roman times Sardinians from Ogliastra joined the roman military fleets and there are clearly roman remains in the region, though it was still "Barbaria" and not completely romanized.

Now, I'm not saying Ogliastra was some sort of crossroad, it was clearly the most unwilling to change among the regions of Sardinia since at least classical times, and the poorest too. The people there rebelled all the time, the slaves captured there by the Romans during the times of the republic would commit suicide or kill their masters rather than continuing their lives as slaves according to the roman accounts. Even in 594 all of the inhabitants of that region were still pagan, with the exception of their leader Hospiton whom pope Gregory sent a letter to telling him to convert his subjects to Christianity.

I think we all agree that the Nuorese and Ogliastra should be distinguished, both historically and genetically Ogliastra seems to have been more conservative than the Nuorese.

 

[Angela]

Phoenician was still spoken in some parts of Sardinia well into the 2nd century AD, see for example the punic inscriptions from Bithia that date to the time of Marcus Aurelius.
Of course if we're talking about Ogliastra and the region around Nuoro the situation there was much different, it was barely touched by punic colonization.
However saying it was "historically isolated" can be easily misinterpreted. Eastern Mediterranean and mycenaean artifacts arrived there since the bronze age. Some nuragic sanctuaries there yielded very old levantine and phoenician materials, see for example the S'arcu E Is Forros inscription which is one of the oldest inscriptions found in the Western Mediterranean to be written in the phoenician alphabet (though some interpret it as philistine):

.
In imperial roman times Sardinians from Ogliastra joined the roman military fleets and there are clearly roman remains in the region, though it was still "Barbaria" and not completely romanized.

Now, I'm not saying Ogliastra was some sort of crossroad, it was clearly the most unwilling to change among the regions of Sardinia since at least classical times, and the poorest too. The people there rebelled all the time, the slaves captured there by the Romans during the times of the republic would commit suicide or kill their masters rather than continuing their lives as slaves according to the roman accounts. Even in 594 all of the inhabitants of that region were still pagan, with the exception of their leader Hospiton whom pope Gregory sent a letter to telling him to convert his subjects to Christianity.

I think we all agree that the Nuorese and Ogliastra should be distinguished, both historically and genetically Ogliastra seems to have been more conservative than the Nuorese.

Indeed, some of us have been saying that for years. Cavalli-Sforza knew it years and years ago, which is why he was very careful in choosing his samples.

Sometimes, pots are indeed just pots, not people, i.e. the Beakers as one major example.

Phoenician influence on the island could hardly have been very large, given the yDna, yes?

More important, I think, given the U-152, is ancestry ultimately traced back to the mainland.

Now that the samples are available, I hope someone reputable takes a look at them.

 

[Georgewalley]

Sardinians are an essentially Mediterranean people with almost no additional influx from other than Early Neolithic expansion to South and Western Europe. Genetically they're district and form their own cluster. Continental Italian influence exist in the North-Eastern parts in the highest percentage. Greek&Phoenician admixture may exist in the Southern coast but left no traceable autosomal impact. Phenotypically they don't differ significantly from Southern Italians and Spaniards, they have less blondism and mainly lack the Dinaric&Armenoid influenced types, Cro Magnid types are also strongly present and possibly a remnant of Mesolithic European ancestry, some Sardinian faces extremely resemble the Minoan frescoes.

 

[Pygmalion]

^Angela Yes, genetically there's almost no phoenician admixture, even the Sardinians from Cagliari cluster very fur away from the Levant. Culturally phoenician influence was obviously very strong, but there was still a sardinian identity distinct from the punic/phoenician one; for instance the Sardinians had their own patron god (The Sardus pater), and they probably had some level of autonomy at least by the fourth century bc if we are to believe Justinius' account about the Carthaginians, Sardinians, Iberians, Gauls, and Lybian ambassadors visited Alexander in Babylon along with some italic ambassadors. Considering Sardinians were mentioned seperately and that they had some islanders to represent them this could mean they had acquired some degree of freedom. It would be very interesting to have Carthage's archive to reconstruct its relationship with its subject territories.

 

[Angela]

Sardinians are an essentially Mediterranean people with almost no additional influx from other than Early Neolithic expansion to South and Western Europe. Genetically they're district and form their own cluster. Continental Italian influence exist in the North-Eastern parts in the highest percentage. Greek&Phoenician admixture may exist in the Southern coast but left no traceable autosomal impact. Phenotypically they don't differ significantly from Southern Italians and Spaniards, they have less blondism and mainly lack the Dinaric&Armenoid influenced types, Cro Magnid types are also strongly present and possibly a remnant of Mesolithic European ancestry, some Sardinian faces extremely resemble the Minoan frescoes.

I think Caterina Murino is incredibly gorgeous, but I would bet that like the Minoans and modern Greeks, she has quite a bit of Iran Neo/CHG. So, this Cagliari born actress is definitely NOT a good barometer for what heavily Neolithic and WHG Sardinians are like. As I said you have to go to those areas to get close to what they might have looked like.

Basically, she looks Greek to me, maybe Roman.

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In the "core" area, a lot of them seem to have short, sometimes downright stubby noses. Or else, they have a "small med" look, not at all like Caterina, with her striking bone structure. She'll be beautiful until she's 80.

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These are rookie mistakes you're making.

 

[Georgewalley]

I think Caterina Murino is incredibly gorgeous, but I would bet that like the Minoans and modern Greeks, she has quite a bit of Iran Neo/CHG. So, this Cagliari born actress is definitely NOT a good barometer for what heavily Neolithic and WHG Sardinians are like. As I said you have to go to those areas to get close to what they might have looked like.

Basically, she looks Greek to me, maybe Roman.

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In the "core" area, a lot of them seem to have short, sometimes downright stubby noses. Or else, they have a "small med" look, not at all like Caterina, with her striking bone structure. She'll be beautiful until she's 80.

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These are rookie mistakes you're making.

If Caterina Murinho is ethnically Sardinian then she'd have very low Iran Neolithic ancestry but high Anatolian farmer ancestry. Notice we can't really link phenotypes to genotype but there's a high chance her phenotype existed among Minoans or let's say Myceaneans who possesed alreadly some Iran Neolithic ancestry.

I think it's not a coincidence that I find Peter Andre (Greek Cypriot singer) similar to one of those Minoan male frescoes as even if a modern Cypriot he'd posses higher Iran Neolithic admixture, but genetically still he'd be close to Minoans.

Peter Andre

 

[Angela]

if caterina murinho is ethnically sardinian then she'd have very low iran neolithic ancestry but high anatolian farmer ancestry. Notice we can't really link phenotypes to genotype but there's a high chance her phenotype existed among minoans or let's say myceaneans who possesed alreadly some iran neolithic ancestry.

I think it's not a coincidence that i find peter andre (greek cypriot singer) similar to one of those minoan male frescoes as even if a modern cypriot he'd posses higher iran neolithic admixture, but genetically still he'd be close to minoans.

Peter andre

read the freaking paper.

 

[berun]

Just looking at Wiki and expending 10 minutes I got this from Diodorus Siculus and Tacitus:

And a peculiar and astonishing thing came to pass in connection with this colony in Sardinia. For the god55 had told them in an oracle that all who joined in this colony and their descendants should continually remain free men for evermore, and the event in their case has continued to be in harmony with the oracle even to our own times. 5 For the people of the colony in the long course of time came to be barbarized, since the barbarians who took part in the colony above them outnumbered them, and so they removed into the mountainous part of the island and made their home in the rough and barren regions and there, accustoming themselves to live on milk and meat and raising large flocks and herds, they had no need of grain. They also built themselves underground dwellings, and by spending their lives in such dug-out homes they avoided the perils which wars entail. 6 As a consequence both the Carthaginians in former days and the Romans later, despite the many wars which they waged with this people, did not attain their design.56

Now the oracle regarding the colony contained also the promise that the participants in this colony should maintain their freedom for all time, and it has indeed come to pass that the oracle, contrary to what one would expect, has preserved autonomy for the natives unshaken to this day. 4 Thus the Carthaginians, though their power extended far and they subdued the island, were not able to enslave its former possessors, but the Iolaës fled for safety to the mountainous part of the island and built underground dwellings, and here they raised many flocks and herds which supplied them with food in abundance, so that they were able to maintain themselves on a diet of milk and cheese and meat; and since they had retired from the plain country, they avoided the hardship which accompanies labour, but ranged over the mountainous part of the island and led a life which had no share in hardship, in that they continued to use the foods mentioned above. 5 And although the Carthaginians made war upon them many times with considerable armies, yet because of the rugged nature of the country and the difficulty of dealing with their dug-out dwellings the people remained unenslaved. Last of all, when the Romans conquered the island and oftentimes made p139 war on them, they remained unsubdued by the troops of an enemy for the reasons we have mentioned.

the situation reminds me that of XVIII Southafrica with farming Boers and Khoekhoe herders in un productive lands. Moreover,

A debate then took place as to the expulsion of Foreign
Egyptian and Jewish worship ; l and a decree was "x^iied.
passed 2 that four thousand freedmen of full age,
infected with those superstitions, should be trans-
ported to Sardinia, to put down brigandage : Should
they perish from the pestilential climate, they never mould
be missed. The rest were to leave Italy if they did
not abjure their profane rites before a certain
day.

So there are genetists that don't even try to know the history of the land they analize and are like riding wild horses, because such Phoenicians, Egyptiand and Jews will have their share with CHG, so that steppe ancestry came mainly from.... Israel-Libanus! Methodology is worthless for some genetists?

 

[Angela]

Just looking at Wiki and expending 10 minutes I got this from Diodorus Siculus and Tacitus:


the situation reminds me that of XVIII Southafrica with farming Boers and Khoekhoe herders in un productive lands. Moreover,

So there are genetists that don't even try to know the history of the land they analize and are like riding wild horses, because such Phoenicians, Egyptiand and Jews will have their share with CHG, so that steppe ancestry came mainly from.... Israel-Libanus! Methodology is worthless for some genetists?

As to your first quote all that would prove is that the scientists are correct, Cavalli Sforza among them, and the people of the Barbagia are different from the rest of the Sardinians, i.e. a relict population to some degree, although not all that different.

That brings me to your second quote. First of all, like many people in this hobby, you're Jew obsessed. NOT ALL CHG CAME WITH JEWS. Second of all, yes, Phoenicians could have brought some CHG, as they did to Spain, along, perhaps, with some J1 and J2 clades. However, people have to get over this idea that a few thousand people moving around in the historical era are going to create wholesale genome change. That's the kind of stuff people with no knowledge of population genetics obsess about on forums like the one at 23andme.

HOWEVER, there is a big difference between CHG and steppe ancestry. Steppe ancestry includes EHG. If there's no EHG there's NO steppe. There is steppe in Sardinia, and it probably came with mainland Italians, or from France, along with the U-152.

Didn't you read the paper?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

As to your first quote all that would prove is that the scientists are correct, Cavalli Sforza among them, and the people of the Barbagia are different from the rest of the Sardinians, i.e. a relict population to some degree, although not all that different.

That brings me to your second quote. First of all, like many people in this hobby, you're Jew obsessed. NOT ALL CHG CAME WITH JEWS. Second of all, yes, Phoenicians could have brought some CHG, as they did to Spain, along, perhaps, with some J1 and J2 clades. However, people have to get over this idea that a few thousand people moving around in the historical era are going to create wholesale genome change. That's the kind of stuff people with no knowledge of population genetics obsess about on forums like the one at 23andme.

HOWEVER, there is a big difference between CHG and steppe ancestry. Steppe ancestry includes EHG. If there's no EHG there's NO steppe. There is steppe in Sardinia, and it probably came with mainland Italians, or from France, along with the U-152.

Didn't you read the paper?

There were a lot of Jews in Spain... As for the Phoenicians - I'm not sure.

 

[Angela]

There were a lot of Jews in Spain... As for the Phoenicians - I'm not sure.

By the Middle Ages, intermarriage between Christians and Jews was forbidden. The only way it could take place was for a Jew to convert to Catholicism, whereupon the Jew would be considered dead by his prior community. Any conversion from Christianity to Judaism was strictly forbidden and would have called down extreme violence upon the Jewish community if they performed it.

Jews did convert in order to stay in Spain, hence the conversos. Some were sincere, but many weren't, as we can see by what happened when they were still harassed, left Iberia, and promptly went back to being practicing Jews again. Intermarriage between Christian Iberians and the Conversos who stayed until the final expulsions was still not common, because most people sought and cherished their certificates of "limpieza" or "pure blood." Some did remain, but even then married amongst themselves in their hideaways, i.e. the Jews of Belmondo.

Bottom line: I'm sure some of their dna flowed into the Iberian genome, but I personally doubt enough did to substantially change it.

It's a fascinating saga. You should read up on it.

I would think of the two there would be more Phoenician Carthaginian input given how wide an area was involved. That J1 and J2 had to come from somewhere, although I'm sure it's not all due to the Phoenicians and Carthaginians. I'm convinced the Bronze Age migrations impacted them too.

This...

Became this by the time of the Punic Wars:

It always fascinates me how Sickeliot and friends can write thousands of posts on all the Phoenician they see not only in Sicilians but in Italians in general, but never discuss this.

They're also the group most obsessed with Jewish ancestry in Italians, but again, strangely enough, not in Spaniards or Portuguese, yet Belmondo is in Portugal, not Italy.

People's mental health issues, like wanting to be Jewish, or to the contrary hating Jews and Italians and wanting them to be related, can manifest in the way they interpret or "misinterpret" genetic data, particularly gedmatch results, which is about all they can at least partially understand.

 

[davef]

"I would think of the two there would be more Phoenician Carthaginian input given how wide an area was involved."

Yes, based on that map, out of all the countries in Europe that had Phoenician colonies (based on that map), Spain had the most by a huge landslide.

 

[Sile]

"I would think of the two there would be more Phoenician Carthaginian input given how wide an area was involved."

Yes, based on that map, out of all the countries in Europe that had Phoenician colonies (based on that map), Spain had the most by a huge landslide.

The biggest difference in the maps from post #16
is the greek loses of lands in albania and south-france compared to the Phoenicians.
.
the second map looks like after the 2nd punic war and before the 3rd punic war

 

[berun]

As to your first quote all that would prove is that the scientists are correct, Cavalli Sforza among them, and the people of the Barbagia are different from the rest of the Sardinians, i.e. a relict population to some degree, although not all that different.
That brings me to your second quote. First of all, like many people in this hobby, you're Jew obsessed. NOT ALL CHG CAME WITH JEWS. Second of all, yes, Phoenicians could have brought some CHG, as they did to Spain, along, perhaps, with some J1 and J2 clades. However, people have to get over this idea that a few thousand people moving around in the historical era are going to create wholesale genome change. That's the kind of stuff people with no knowledge of population genetics obsess about on forums like the one at 23andme.
HOWEVER, there is a big difference between CHG and steppe ancestry. Steppe ancestry includes EHG. If there's no EHG there's NO steppe. There is steppe in Sardinia, and it probably came with mainland Italians, or from France, along with the U-152.
Didn't you read the paper?

what are you talking about? can you provide evidences about my Jewish obsession? My real interest is near 0.

About a few thousand colonists... read the info first, it explains that locals were inhabiting the mountains so it is to think that Phoenicians colonized the best lands to farming, just look at the case of Hampsicora... And what about 4000 men in the core of the island? it will have not a DNA impact?

You say that without EHG steppe will not pop up, can be sure that a Southafrican Coloured will not pop up as pure white in China if we don't take into account its African genes? Please just use logics in paleogenetics.

 

[firetown]

Tacitus was a mixed bag. Full of propaganda with a strong anti-Jewish political agenda. However, I am interested in one of his claims that Mount Ida was the origin of Iudea. His opinions regarding Jewish life and religion however are worthless.

Just looking at Wiki and expending 10 minutes I got this from Diodorus Siculus and Tacitus:


the situation reminds me that of XVIII Southafrica with farming Boers and Khoekhoe herders in un productive lands. Moreover,

So there are genetists that don't even try to know the history of the land they analize and are like riding wild horses, because such Phoenicians, Egyptiand and Jews will have their share with CHG, so that steppe ancestry came mainly from.... Israel-Libanus! Methodology is worthless for some genetists?